PraetorH

Der Thread ist zwar schon älter, aber ja - das geht! Zwar nicht so, wie auf dem Bild, das ist nämlich nur ein Witz der Bodencrew gewesen, aber es war möglich R-60 an die Hind zu montieren an den Pylonen unter den Flügeln. Es sollen sogar einige Einheiten der GSSD damit ausgerüstet gewesen sein. (Yefim Gordon, Dmitriy Komissarov: Mil Mi-24 Hind attack helicopter, 2001, S.17) Und so sieht das aus: Die Iglas sind m.E. eine wesentlich spätere Entwicklung, die auch eher Werbezwecken dienen dürfte. Denn anders als im Dritten Weltkrieg sind heutzutage kaum Heli vs Heli-Kämpfe zu erwarten. Im Kalten Krieg allerdings hatten fast alle größeren Nationen Hubschrauber mit LL-Bewaffnung, auch Deutschland übrigens: Es sollte eine Bo-105 BSH (Begleitschutzhubschrauber) geben, die vier Stinger mitführte, und der Tiger war von Anfang an mit Stingern konzipiert. Man hatte auf westlicher Seite einige Angst vor den Hind-Massen, während man im Osten nicht gerade begeistert über die Kampfhubschrauber war... Es gibt sogar eine Mi-8, an die die R-60 geschraubt wurde. Soll Afghanistan sein.

Well, the Yak-38 may not be a fleet defender in the sense of the Tomcat, and the Kiev-Class is not meant to tangle with 'real' US carrier battle groups. But I still think as light attack craft, the Yak-38 has little operational use: bomb load and range are very restricted, meaning the carrier would have to be close to the shore exposing itself to all sorts of trouble. I really think that hunting for enemy ASW and maybe even small AWACS planes probably helps the general fleet effort better, especially supporting own subs. And while the Yak-38 is not an impressive fighter, it's lack of radar and any modern electronics make it harder to detect. I could well imagine a well led Forger flight to sneak up on a few planes. Even if detected, the presence of an enemy fighter force urges the NATO to send out their own fighters and be careful with their ASW assets. Add the Soviet long range aviation and the naval aviation to the mix, and things start to look interesting. By contrast, everything the Yak-38 could bomb could be bombed better by the other branches of service. If the Forger had been a supersonic, or at least been equipped with better AA weaponry - as it was planned apparently - it could have created more than a little trouble. For gameplay purposes I am going to add at least all aspect missiles. Ironically, I think the Yak-38 and the Kiev-Class would perform even better in the Baltic. While there is not really much space to hide, the ship does not need to expose itself by using radar, since the land based radar can guide the fighter. On the other hand, I don't think the Kiev-Class could stand up to a concentrated attack of the W-German Marineflieger with their Tornados.

Die Bilder vom Starfighter machen echt Lust auf Mehr! Vielen Dank dafür! Ich hoffe, die skins beinhalten auch die ganz frühen Silber-Varianten. Und für ein neues High-Res cockpit würde ich definitiv Geld zahlen. Ich war lange nicht mehr im Forum: hat TK irgendwelche Pläne für ein neues Strike Fighters Spiel oder wenigstens DLC?

Thanks! I have to be honest and say that the name RED NOVEMBER is merely a joke, since I had just read "The Hunt for Red October". The Red Griffin is a hint to the true name, POMMERN (Engl.: Pomerania), which is a region in North-East Germany and its coat of arms features the Red Griffon. This name is also better in line with the East German naming convention of ships. Now I just have to create a few E-German ships... Sadly, there are none in game. Surprisingly E-Germany had a rather impressive indigenous ship-building programme considering how small the country was - and how insignificant the navy. But some Soviet copies will do for the POMMERN battlegroup. I just wish the Yak-38 was a better plane. Defending yourself against Tomcats and Hornets is not really fun... I wonder how they would have performed in real conflict. Nope. I had it on, but deleted it again, because the small plane really looks a bit cluttered with all the insignia, numbers, coat of arms, and VOLKSMARINE text. Moreover, unlike the West German Bundesmarine, the Volksmarine aircraft did not sport such a text. Historically speaking, this is probably what an East German Yak-38 would have looked like (perhaps with a smaller Griffin). Maybe they would have had an all blue camouflage... I could do that. But I like the combination of blue and green a lot.

Not a bad idea! But I think Norway is an even better candidate for the F-106. Think about it: they have got a huge territory to cover if you consider the Norwegian Sea, including the oil fields. This is the Soviet Naval Aviation's play field and having long range interceptors is quite an advantage.

Looking forward to it!

Nice! On next weekend I will try another 70ies Marineflieger myself. Yep, Harriers would be cool, even though 1996 is too modern for my tastes. (But that is my problem! ) However I would recommend going for the Norm 87, if the Harrier is not primarily used as fighter. The Tornados had this scheme until going to the Luftwaffe. http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/schemes/n87_e.htm The all-grey navy paintjob only came in recently, 2005, iirc.

Cool! I always liked the Soviet carrier aviation because of its extreme underdog role in a hypothetical WWIII.

Very nice project! I myself toyed a lot with the idea of a German carrier, and now that I have returned to SF and even have NA, I will enjoy this. I must admit I'd prefer a Cold War carrier with jump jets (VAK 191 anyone?), but ok... :) The Fulcrums indicate it is a post-Cold War project, and obviously Germany needs to project power across the seas in the new world order. The real Germany wisely refrains from projecting power in such an expensive and aggressive way, but it is not a totally absurd idea. In the Cold War of course there is no reason for a German carrier, even though I am trying hard to come up with some...

Northrop-Dornier F-20G Tigershark What Happened in Reality: In the early 80ies test pilots from ErpStff 61 (flight test squadron of the Luftwaffe) evaluated a number of US aircraft comparing it to the TKF/ Jäger 90 (now called Eurofighter). The F-15 was rated an excellent fighter but lacking AG-capabilities and rather expansive. The F-18 was so well received that rumours spread it may be bought as an intermediate solution until the TKF was ready. Northrop aggressively advertised its F-20 Tigershark since it also would provide a good and relatively low cost intermediate solution for the Luftwaffe. Indeed the WTD 61 pilots reviewed it favourably, but politically it was impossible to introduce the Tigershark. The Luftwaffe had a strict 2-engine policy when it came to combat aircraft, and with many European projects going on, buying American could not be accepted under any circumstances. Thus Germany never considered to buy the Tigershark in real life. June 1984, Erprobungsstaffel 61 Edwards AFB, United States of America The Alternate Reality: From Alpha Jet to Tigershark In the later 70ies it became apparent that the Alpha Jet was to be more of a trainer than a fighter bomber. The idea to fight WWIII with a slow plane that had no armour, no ECM, no guided air-to-ground munitions was not exactly cherished in the Luftwaffe. Furthermore the back-seat was entirely useless for the combat role of the Alpha Jet. With the French refusal to change the concept, the Luftwaffe began looking for alternatives. Due to legal quarrels it was not until 1983 that the Luftwaffe could officially look for a replacement of the Alpha Jet. The Luftwaffe quickly found that the recently tested F-20 Tigershark fitted the profile of its fighter bomber wings and ordered 175 of them. In fact having only one engine proved advantageous because it kept the price low, and the experiences with single engine aircraft had been well recently. Also, the incredibly short scramble time came in handy and meant a great improvement compared to the Alpha Jet. Only Dornier, the German producer of the Alpha Jet, was furious. Therefore it was tasked with the refitting of the Tigershark to German standards and allowed to license produce some of the Tigersharks. Meanwhile a decision on the future of the fighter force needed to be made, and while some still favoured upgrading the Phantoms with Amraams, the introduction of the Tigershark was ordered. Like the old Phantom it was to serve as stopgap until the Eurofighter arrives, which by that time was far behind schedule. Thus another 100 Tigersharks, split between Dornier and Northrop, were produced and delivered. The Northrop-Dornier F-20G Since the Luftwaffe had no interest in Sparrows and intended to use the F-20G mostly as CAS plane, the BVR weaponry was dropped, although the option to later install Amraams was kept. The advanced air-to-ground options, especially the AGM-65, however remained. Dornier was tasked with ensuring the compatibility to German and French weaponry, furthermore installing the Mauser BK 27 instead of the M39 cannons. Operational History After only a few years of flying the Alpha Jet, the Fighter Bomber Wings 41, 43, 44, and 49 transitioned to the Tigershark, but were more than happy. Although CAS was the primary task, the fighter bomber pilots enjoyed the capabilities to actual fulfil the fighter aspect of their role. After Germany was reunited, the Fighter Wings 71 “Richthofen” and 74 “Mölders” also switched to the F-20G. August 1987, Jagdbombergeschwader 43, Oldenburg, West-Germany I I December 1991, Jagdgeschwader 71 “Richthofen” Wittmund, Germany I I

Indeed, odd but attractive.

last time I checked both of them were still dead... This does not change the fact that historical movies need good advisors, preferably from both sides... And should the sad day come to us that all veterans from all countries are dead, there are still historians.

So eine Su-22 in Norm 83 wäre doch was feines... ;)

Sure, but you have to consider that pilots often really did not know what hit them or their comrades. When a GCI guided, supersonic MiG-21 closes in from the ground, fires its IR missiles and heads back to the ground clutter, there is the chance that it never was spotted or detected. The US pilots then must have concluded it was a SAM. Of course, they as much as their superiors liked the notion better being shot by SAM, rather than by one of the dreadfully outnumbered MiGs.

Another Thud Norm 72 camo for JaBoG 31 "Boelcke" and Norm 76 for the MFG 2 (note the ASM):

Bemerkenswert, da nur noch minimale Wartung (d.h. ist am Boden noch zu Versuchen tauglich) betrieben wurde... Es kann natürlich gut sein. Ich würde jedenfalls vorsichtig sein, damit zu fliegen, auch wenn es eine Zulassung gibt.

Hello Forum, I have started working on a German F-105: http://combatace.com/topic/63073-what-if-screenshot-thread/?p=646646 This is a quite real what-if, since the Luftwaffe really considered buying the F-105 for their nuclear fighter bomber wings to supplement the F-104 (fighter wings) and G-91 (conventional bomber wings). The Luftwaffe decided to go for one high-tech plane only, but what if Republic reacted by offering a multi-role F-105? (I recall having read somewhere that this really happened... but I cannot find it atm) How would that look like, is it even possible? I mean it is a huge plane, but it is fast and offers good avionics. I would like to hear your opinions, please.

You are right. There is hardly a way making it a fighter. But there was another engine considered for a British export version, the Olympus BOI.22R (Mk. 320), the same that powered the BAC TSR.2. It might be a worthy what-if for the Brits out here I won't be adding AIM-7 for Germany and I have, on the whole abandoned the idea of a fighter Thud. It will be the plan that was rejected for financial reasons: F-104 for the fighters, F-105 for the fighter bombers, and G-91 for the light bombers. Although I am not a fan of the hump, I would add it for an ICE, but lacking 3D-modeling capabilities I cannot...

Der letzte Flug war am 2. Oktober 1998. Und es stehen m.W.n. immer noch zwei in den Hangars von WTD 61 rum, aber wohl kaum noch flugfähig.

Easy with such a template. Next is JBG 32:

Can't say I am a fan of the hump in this case, somehow it does not look right. And shouldn't there be enough space in the unused bomb bay? Anyway, usually the bomb bay was filled with a tank for conventional, is that modelled in game or not? Fair enough, but people knew that back then. And with the greater conventional load it was at least better than the F-104. Thinking "multi-role" in the later 50ies is actually "dual role": nuclear strike and intercept. This is what Germany and the other NATO-nations following Germany's lead in aircraft aquisition wanted; the good old days before Flexible Response. And in this the F-105 was seen as a contender. In fact Georg Feuchter, who was an influential theorist of that time in Germany, wanted the F-105 for just this dual purpose. General Kammhuber, commander of the Luftwaffe, and Strauss, Secretary of Defense, largely agreed. Of course, the latter merely wanted to nuke the Soviets in Moscow and needed a plane for that mission, but still... The lower costs and the better intercept capabilities of the Starfighter finally decided the issue against the F-105. Also the Starfighter could be announced as a fighter to the German public, which did not react well to nuclear bombers, so it was politically sensible. But let's just follow the line of Feuchter, and assume Republic added interceptor qualities to the Thud. The F-105 is fast no doubt, so it may even work. Maybe another gunshight with lead computing would have sufficed, but I can imagine Sparrows (although not for W-Germany). Later ICEs in the wake of Flexible response can be discussed as well. PS: Range is an issue, even for Germany with the enemy a few miles away. It was anticipated that most airfields would be destroyed within the first 24h of WWIII. The Luftwaffe then would have had to operate from the Benelux-countries, France, and Denmark or even Norway.

Lol, looks we are going to get a lot new F-105s! What a template can do... :D Of course, in all cases we are dealing with big "what-ifs". Even Germany, easily the richest and most powerful of the countries without its own aircraft production, was not capable of supporting the F-105. It was a huge beast, complicated and demanding to any infrastructure. Buying a plane is one thing, operating another. But nonetheless, it still is great fun. ;)

File Name: A-4FG Skyhawk in W-German Service File Submitter: PraetorH File Submitted: 06 December 2013 File Category: A-4 The A-4FG Skyhawk in German Service For background history and details see this thread: A-4FG (Marine) This is the basic German Navy version of the A-4F with Superfox engine upgrade, used from 1970 to 1988. It comes with four skins: - Norm 76 camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 1 (historical) - Norm 76 camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 3 “Graf Zeppelin” (historical) - Gull Grey camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 1 (semi-historical for the early German Navy aircraft came with the camos used in their forces) - Arctic camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 1 (fictional) A-4FG (Luftwaffe) This is the basic German Air Force version, identical to the navy version but with slightly different mission profile and different pilot-skin. It comes with one skin: - Norm 72 camouflage for Jagdbombergeschwader 44 (historical) A-4FG ICE (Marine) This is a substantial upgrade for the German Navy intended to provide advanced CAS and fleet defence. As such it is equipped with an APG-66, Amraams and Mavericks. From 1990 on, you also have access to KH-25L LGR. It comes with four skins: - Norm 87 camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 1(historical) - Norm 90J camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 3 “Graf Zeppelin” (historical) - United Nations White for Marinefliegergeschwader 1(semi-historical) - Desert Camouflage for Marinefliegergeschwader 1 (fictional) Requires: - Merged Install SF2 E+I+V. How to install: - Drop the folders into your objects-folder Credits: - Wrench for his template used to create the skins - Dtmdragon for his help with the .ini-files - Ravenclaw for bits and bytes from his F-4F skins - Soulfreak for his decals - The GMG for various weapons and pilots included in this package by PraetorH Dec 2013 Click here to download this file

Sundowner, your 105-template is superb! It is pure joy working with it and you can count on a long line of Luftwaffe and Marineflieger camouflages to come... For now we start with the silver of Jagdbombergeschwader 33:

A-4FG Skyhawk in German Service Historical Background: In 1957 the Bundesmarine, the German Navy, was overruled by the Luftwaffe in the decision what the successor to the aging Seahawk would be. The domineering Luftwaffe chose the F-104G Starfighter for its own formation and the Marine had to follow in an attempt to standardize equipment. It was a less than optimal solution since the Marineflieger, the naval aviation, had a purely conventional fighter bombing and anti-ship mission. The conventional load-out of the Starfighter was very limited. The Marineflieger also suffered high accident rates with the Starfighter and a political debate about the so-called Starfighter crisis unfolded, when in the later 60ies the United States Navy began retiring their A-4 Skyhawks. Also, the Marine had been evaluating the use of G-91 light bombers to supplement their air assets for some time, as it could be operated much easier with much less logistical and financial support. It had, however, been rejected because the bomb load was too small and the avionics too limited. The Road not Taken: : In this situation a bold Admiral stepped up and proposed to buy A-4 Skyhawks which would came in cheaper as the USN began retiring them in favour of the A-7. Since it had more advanced avionics than the G-91, could carry a greater bomb load then either Starfighter and G-91, and still could be easily operated, the idea quickly gained momentum in the Marine. It also grew popular in the wake of the political discussion on the Starfighter and the apparent misjudgement of the Luftwaffe concerning the needs of the Marineflieger. The Luftwaffe stood by its decision though. A compromise was reached when the Marine agreed to hand over all their Starfighters to the Luftwaffe and would switch entirely to Skyhawk. The A-4FG Skyhawk : The German Skyhawk was a minimally changed F-model: while losing some of the guided weaponry, it incorporated an gun-sight similar to that of the Starfighter in order to ease pilot transition and other barely noticeable modifications. The first Skyhawks reached the Marine in 1970. Operational History: : The earliest Skyhawks were given to Marinefliegergeschwader 1 and still carried the USN gull grey colours. Later they were repainted according to Norm 76. Also the Luftwaffe became interested in the plane as it showed remarkable performances. But since the Luftwaffe was planning to introduce the Alpha Jet, only one wing which otherwise would have been disbanded, was equipped with Skyhawks. [i am aware that technically the German Skyhawks in navy service may have been painted in Norm 62 until Norm 76 came around. However that Luftwaffe-like camo is not only unfitting for a navy, it was specially for the Starfighter and shared with the Luftwaffe. Had the navy gotten its own aircraft it may not have been painted in Luftwaffe colours. Therefore I chose navy colours. The historical precedent are the Seahawks which were not repainted] August 1970, Marinefliegergeschwader 1 Jagel, West-Germany April 1977, Marinefliegergeschwader 1 Jagel, West-Germany September 1977, Marinefliegergeschwader 3 “Graf Zeppelin” Nordholz, West-Germany March 1976, Jagdbombergeschwader 44 Leipheim, West-Germany I A word on a possible release: In case of interest, I will need to refine the German Skyhawk, and I will need to make sure I got all necessary permissions to use the work of others (the German numbers and pilots e.g.), before I can upload it.