cougar_1979

I've got an idea, of how to keep these high-g fights a bit more manageable. Maybe, by keeping the fight fast, and withing reach, but outside the "elbow" we can avoid the bandit "sinking" bellow our nose and losing sight of it. The risk is of course, that if we fight him fast, we'll be more likely to black out. I'll see if i can get a few fights in the morning....

Those were some intense bouts! In those high-g turns and with the ammount of lead required to get an effective guns solution, i can see why some people think guns are apsolite on modern fighters...... It will be very hard to get the bandit above your nose and provide a clear gun shot at the same time.

Just a quicky here guys, as don't have any interesting flights to report. I did practice and experiment with heads-on approaches with heat seaking missiles. And though i can't confirm or deny if nozzle temperature is modeled in sim, i think i can confirm that exhaust is. On about a dozen separate merges, with and without AB engaged, it seams the enemy managed to get an earlier lock from the front when ever i had my cans lit durning the final 5-8 miles and vice versa. Can anyone confirm this?

Hi Eric. There is one thing i always find helpful when familiarizing with a new jet. If your flight stick supports it, try to tie some kind of feedback to the onset of strong buffet. That way, you can relax the stick much quicker then having to montor airspeed or angle of attack indicators. Even when all out breaking in these earlier jets, i find it much better not to venture too deep in the buffet area. This helps in keeping your energy up and somewhat mitigates the natural isnstinct of pulling on the stick just a wee bit more to get better angle. I hope this helps mate! Cheers

Yeah, the F-4 becomes quite unweildy when brought in slow. I once saw a side by side comparisson of the F-4 and F-8 lift curves per angle of attack, and the explanations wa sobvious. The F-8 holds an advantage across almost all of the envelope.

That was some intense flying guys. So much that the the "itch" became too much to bare ;) Finally this evening i got some free time to try out that F-8 VS MiG-21 Bis fight. I went for a 1970 setup, me in an F-8J with 4 AIM-9H's and the MiG in what ever was the Soviet period equivalent. This is HOP#3. The first two were more of orientational flights, to get a better feel for the Crusader. All three flights were a victory, but i decided to upload #3 because it sort of represents the lessons learned from the first 2. The short version? This plane likes to fly fast. Now don't get me wrong, with it's superior (for the time) high alpha capability, it can take on the slow fight if needed, but let it build up its energy and see it fly. I recomend keeping it above 400 knots as often as possible. In a way, it's like the Hornet's ancestor. I can see why the early Hornet community came from ex F-8 pilots and why they loved the F-18 so much. The F-18 flies like an F-8 on steroids. Build up your energy, expend, repeat and keep your nose on the enemy at all times. If the bandit bleeds too much, let him and use the vertical, the Bis can't follow. Not when he's down to 250 knots.

Great flying mates!

That's one fight i really wanted to see

How did you manage to beat them? Got any useful tips WVR? The onaly way i could outfly a 4th gen in an A-4 so far, was to go single circle on him right away, and perhaps goad him into falt scissors if i fail to get him on the first cross.

Personally, i have never tried it myself (turning off the radar), but i doubt it would work (the AI seams to have perfect SA). I did try to cool down my exhaust nozzles and to minimize thrust signature by going to idle at the merge in order to spoil IR locks, but doesn seam to make one bit od diference either. It doesn't hurt to try though.

Ground hugging and high closure rates seam to help alot with SARHs, not sure about ARMs though. This is an older video of me in a Star Fighter, VS an F-15A with Sparrows:

<with the Caesar's INI> I just took 2 sections of F-4N Phantoms against 8 (unknown at the time) MiG-17's. SE Asia, 1973. We picked up radar contacts some 15nm at 11 low and swooped in for the merge. No BVR allowed (house rules) and no shooting what so ever until visual confirmation of the bandits has been established. It was a turkey shoot. I led my boys in fast wide swooping strifes. The bandits had no chance. By the end of the flight it was 8:0. I got ace in a day, and section 2 leader got 3 of them himself. They just can't stay on you once you break through 480kn.

That's a neat experiment! I will try and give the 17 a few runs tomorrow. Does anyone on the boards have any good MiG experience/lore? I mean, something that would help quantify the loss of control? And does the SF2 FM allow for multiple/gradual changes?

Those would most certainly be some interesting DACTs to see/read. Looking forward to them :)

It's good to see the thread still up and running. I finally got some free time last night and i decided to slowly move on from the guns only, to guns and SRAM's. This would require a significant change in tactics, especially with all aspect mssiles. My first hop will be an F-14A with 4 Limas against an Su-27B armed with R-73's. It's a bit anachronistic, as these birds if met, would fight in the mid-late 80's and as such the Soviet missiles would probably be the R-60, but these are training and demonstrational runs, so bumping up the challenge is a good idea (for me at least). The general tactics are as followed. Instead of a head on approach, the blue planes closes the range (in full mil power) with the bandit at an angle, somewhere between 30-50 degrees off boresight. This should give us a better view of an incomming missile and more room to maneuver against it. As we close to 7-8nm the engine is set to idle, so we can minimise the heat emitions from the engines. At 4-5nm we preemptively start launching countermesures. At 4nm we start our first break into the bandit and continue launching flaires. We continue the break until we crossed the bandit's bath and passed it to about 30 degrees and then we reverse our break and repeat the process. The reversal should be performed after the bandit launches the second missile (if), but after the first break things usually happen so fast, there is not enough time to wait for a visual confirmation. If exectuted properly (and with some luck), we have avoided being shot in the snout and can now merge with the bandit. Note1: we can always opt to shoot the bandit in the face too, but that is no the goal of this hop. Note2: the above procedure is based mostly on real life tactics and i don't know if and how much the sim engines simulates all the parameters needed for it to work. The planes start at angels 15, some 20nm away on each other's 3 o'clock. We turn slowly into the bandit until we can lock him up on our radar. Then we keep it on the edge of our 30-50 degree cone. While turning we are trying not to expend too much energy as we will need it before the merge. Avoid using afterburner as it will heat up the exhausts and thus increase our IR signatures. At 7nm we set the throttle to idle, but it takes some time for the engine to spull down (note to myself, next time try this at 10nm). At 4-5nm we start kicking flaires and almost at the same time the RIO calls a missile launch. WE exectute our first break, and while still not 20 degrees off starboard, the bandit launces another missile at us. We reverse as quickly as possible and perform another break. The early cut of the break, causses the first missile to explode a bit too close to our tail for my liking, but both missiles are spuffed-evaided and now we can reverse for our merge. We plug in the throttles again and go to zone 5, executing a left hand turn. Unfortunately the loss of altitude during the maneuver and the increased airspeed has resulted in a fairly high g-load and a danger of a g-lock. Never the less, despite the contued relaxing of the turn to avoid black outs, we find ourselves in a sustained downward spiral. At all times if possible, try to keep the bandit close. His missiles have better HOBS capability, so we don't want to give him an opportunity to point his nose at us with larger separation. After reaching the literal hard deck both planes finally complete full relative 360's and perge nose to nose again for another 2 circle flight path. Another 360 and this time i feel comfotable i have enough energy advantage to try and gain some turning space in the vertical. Leveling the wings, pulling up, rolling into the bandit..... the bandit slides bellow us, we continue to turn into him, but the gorund is too close and i don't want to risk close contact with it, so i level off a bit early. I decide to continue the vertical apporach, but nearly a month of not flying has made me a bit ham fisted and i jerk the stic a bit too hard back. This results into too much energy bleed and even though i manage to bring my nose around first i don't have enough juice to follow up on it and press the advantage. I relax the stick and try to recover some speed in a dive. This helps the bandit to get dangeously deep in my rear hemisphere. I try to tighten my turn and deny him a chance to extend on my 6, this still keeping him close. My RIO calls another missile shot, but as i get no RWR tone, i suspect it must be a HOBS shot. At this range and at these g's no missile can maintain a good intercept.... well maybe a Python 5 or something similar........ but i chose to ignore it and don't lauch any flaires as i am confident it will miss..... and it does. By now i know what i am doing wrong. Being a right handed guy, i find the right handed turns more dificult to properly control. That and lack of practice has made me make some clumsy moves, but i finally get my stick discipline together and after a few seconds we merge at neutral again. I go up again, this time with a less distinct advantage. I don't go into a pure high Yo-Yo however, instead i perform a wide displacemnet roll that brings me slightly above the bandit, with him crossing my nose. I have him! Or maybe not..... he pulls his nose hard into me and break into each other for a one circle nose to nose chase. I complete the turn first and get both a good tone and a good lock first. I realise i am pprobably too close and the closure is to high for this to work, but i have 4 missiles and wasting one might actually help my turning rate, if not score a lucky hit. The Lima of course misses in a spectacular fireworks of flaires, but having completed the turn first puts me in a possition to finally get him on a defensive. His defensive break has cost him too much energy and now i have him in my sights. I get another good lock, but i notice the aspect is not favorable. His it in the mid of a left turn. If i let him slide by, he will firther exhaust him self and i will let him have a winde up his tailpipe (it's mate in 2). In the meantime, i'll just go for a gun snapshot, unles he jinks and bleed even more it will be mate in 1. I pull the lead, squeeze the trigger..... and i get a lucky gun kill in what was supposed to be a missile tactics demosntration..... Well, at least i got the defensive mart relatively right...

This one was not a deliberate DACT report, but the overall mission went south so fast i felt like sharing it with you. It's a 1984 cold war gone hot scenario. I was flying over CE with a full sqaudron, spending most of my time watching out for SAMs, when out of nowhere 8 MiG-23MLAs jumped us. We were still heavy on fuel and AAMs, what followed could easily have went much worse. We just got lucky in the end. The video starts just before the bogies (bogies my a***, it's bandits) are called at just 4nm away!. I roder my wings to attack, but it's too late. The bogies have already oppened fire. I get a visual on the enemy, it's MiG-23 flying right through our formation, bandits! One MiG seams to have bought it and one Tomcat as well. I perform a split-s to get out of the furball and try to re engage from a better vantage point. The sight i behold as i pull back up reminds me of something out of a movie..... planes circling around eachother at point blank range..... I set my sights on one of the migs but it bursts out in flames before i even get a good tone. As i do another wide circle, i hear over the radio as my boys got another one. Finally i notice a MiG crossing paths with an F-14, i lock him up, selec Sparrows, and let off a shot. It's a good hit and one more MiG is down for the count. GC calls mission complete, but this is not over yet. We can't disengage with who-knows-how-many 23s looming around. I see one of them falling in behind me just as one of my wingmen yells a warning. I put my lift vector on him and start pulling the stick. One of my men commes between me and the bandit, but before i get a chance to complete my turn he bites it. And i was so preouccupied with my AoA i didn't even see how. I re engage the bandit and order my #2 to double up on him. I am too close for Sparrows so i select Winders, i get a good tone (or so i think), i fire the missile......and nothing hapennes. He reverses his turn and i break enough for him to gain some separation. I select AIM-7 again, fire away.....and again nothing. Having lost my faith in technology i select guns and move in for the kill. Some of my rounds connect and i go into a high displacement roll to avoid an overshoot as he spirals down wonded. Just then my team mates finish him off with a FOX-2. In the meantime, the rest of the team sems to have kicked some serious butts. The sky is clear of bandits. I call on the GC/Hawkeye to call the nearest threats. I lock up one of the targets and i do something i haven't done in ages, a FOX-3 in PD STT mode. Just to be on the safe side. It pays off as the missile goes right to the target. I turn thoward the Sun, to face the last of them, but my wingmen are faster. The only thing left for me is to call the flights to rejoin and enjoy the view...... SF2 truly shines in sunsets.....

EDIT: and it worked, another 9:0 for the Wolfpack, over SE Asia

I'm trying it now, stand by... This is the way i went about it (in the F-14A (74) folder, the loadout ini i added this: [AirToAir'75] StartDefaultDate=1975 DefaultFor=SWEEP,ESCORT,CAP Loadout[29].WeaponType=F14DDE Loadout[29].Quantity=1 Loadout[11].WeaponType=AIM-54A Loadout[11].Quantity=1 Loadout[12].WeaponType=AIM-54A Loadout[12].Quantity=1 Loadout[03].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4 Loadout[03].Quantity=1 Loadout[13].WeaponType=AIM-9H Loadout[13].Quantity=1 Loadout[14].WeaponType=AIM-9H Loadout[14].Quantity=1 Loadout[01].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4 Loadout[01].Quantity=1 Loadout[02].WeaponType=AIM-7E-4 Loadout[02].Quantity=1 Loadout[17].WeaponType=Tank330_F14_W Loadout[17].Quantity=1 Loadout[18].WeaponType=Tank330_F14_W Loadout[18].Quantity=1 Trying it now

Thanks mate! Do i copy-paste this over the current ini lines? Or do i need to make a new entry?

Happy new year everyone! Having had no smarter way to spend the eve, i satayed at home and tried on the new F-14 from Aerosoft, for FSX. After several carrier traps, it sort of dawned to me, what if the evacuation of Saigon went hot..... so i kicked in SF2 and flew the follwing mission, it's a 1975 CAP of SE Asia and it turned out into a complete BVR engagement (almost) The flight is 4 Early F-14A's loaded with a configuration of 4 AIM-54s, 2 AIM-7 and 2 AIM-9. The recording starts at bellow angels 20 and lasts for more then 15 minutes so i had to cut down on video quality..... (BTW, does anyone know how to load the early F-14s with a 2-3-2 configuration?) The GC calls multiple bogies at 9, but these will not be the bandits we are going to be fight for the most part. A flight of NAVY Phantoms is going to angage them. As the first bandit goes down in the distance, the GC calls new contacts at 4, this time bandits, 10nm away, clear to engage. I order element 2 to attack as i fly cover. As they appear to be flying low, i have some trouble picking them up on the scope. At 2:40 they start streaking by us. I go high and roll over on my back to better assess the situation. I was just about to drop my bags, when i recall something i heard from an ex Tomcat driver..... "we always flew with our bags on....would i drop them? Sure, if i was fighting a MiG-29 and losing" Well this being 1975. i have no idea what a MiG-29 is and surely don't see one around. What i do see is a Fresco nailed down and smoking by my second element. I break high and see another 17 pursuing 3 and 4. I select sidewinders and roll into him. At the same time my radar acquires another target which will turn out to be one of my wingmen. I am lucky though and the seaker finds the MiG. Splash another MiG! This makes 3 nailed by us and it's mission complete, but i decide to stick around and help the other squadron. I order rejoin, and set an intercept course tp the nearest group. A MiG crosses the HUD on my right and i break into him. I have what it think is a good tone and let off another winder. But there is no hit. I fire a Sparrow next but it doesn't even start to track and just goes balisitc off the rail. My break must have cost me too much energy i stall as i withness a Fresco outclimbing me to 30+ angels. This Buffalos must be awfull heave so i order my element to attack and they nail it. We rejoin and as have enough fuel to play some more, we go for another set of contacts some 20+nm away. I wait a bit for the IFF to sort them out and then fire sway 2 54's at two of the contacts. On of the missiles finds its mark and i order my men to engage as i fire another pair of 54's at a second pair of contacts. This time both missiles find thier targets and i order another rejoin. I find one more hostile and order my wingmen to engage. I prepare to launch a sparrow when the 54 from the wingman hits. We rejoin again an as the Phantoms took care of the rest of them we head for home. Tomcats 9, MiG's 0. Although No loses on the Tomcat side and the wingmen turned out to be surprisingly good, we did lose at least 2 Phantoms :(

I got some free time this afteroon, so i decided to try and replicate a dogfight i was discussing with Saisran. It involves an attempt to force and win a vertical engagement against a higher T/W ratio bandit - in this case a block 25 F-16C. My AC of choice would of course be the F-14A. We'd be starting at roughly 20000ft, 5nm neutral merge, gunzo. My strategy is to try and cause the bandit to bleed while i unload and then go up. This would cause the AI to try and follow me (they usually do when they fly high T/W planes). I would then try to use my knot advantage to stay offensive and force the bandit to either dive for the deck or bleed even more and turn into a floating leaf. The recording of this HOP starts slightly bellow angels 16. I try to gain some airspeed before the merge so i plug in the burners to reach the 430-460KIAS i prefer having at the merge. We cross on eachohter's left and turn for a two circle nose to tail chase. Keeping the AoA just bellow the buffet onset throughout the entire turn allows me to complete it with good 350 knots on my belt. I see the F-16 ahead doing the same, going for a wide merge. Just as i thing i will have to do another neutral pass he starts truning into me. At this altitude and this turn rate that means bleeding off airspeed. So i make the gamble, level off and pull up. Turns out i was right, as he dropped bellow 300 (courtasy of the HUD dificulty level) i zoomed out above him, turned the Cat on her back, brought my nose on him. He pulled high trying to cut into my climb, but this made him lose even more airspeed. I went up after him with more then 150kts advantage and as he dropped his nose to avoid stall i knew i had him. Using the God's G to assist in my dive i closed in and started pulling lead on him. He went into a downward spiral to offset his low energy state, but this only bought him time (the Viper corners in the high 300's). The bandit only gets to execute 1 and 1/2 interations of the spiral before we hit sea level and i get on him before he even reaches the point when he has to pull out of the dive. Four busts and his wing is sawed off. Splash one, nock it off.... Takeaways, I was suprised it went to se easy. I am used to this kind of fights in BMS all the time but the AI there is g-limited (like the human player) so it often initiates the vertical fight by it self. So, as usual i had to trick it into climbing with me. But that is not what surprised me. The thing is, this was the first time i could actually execute a vertical fight in the F-14A in SF2. Usually my controlls are set too tight (not that i didn't try to change the sensitivity, mind you) and i bleed energy too fast in the TF30 powered Turkey. The other thing was that the AI actually handled the vertical not as good as i expected it would (when entering the fight under neutral conditions or with a slight advantage the AI usually flies flawlessly). It only lasted for 2 vertical iterations. The end resault? One F-16C bagged for the wife and children at home, and more then 14000lbs of fule to spare..... I think it's a personal best

Still busy at work, so i don't get to fly at all. I do lurk the thread at all times though. I've been doing some sidework on my F-14 flight model for the BMS too, but only small refinements. I have been thinking for another themed DACT, but at the moment i can't decide what would it be.....or when can i actually perform it....

Good flying man, and once again i'm impressed with the way the AI handled that cat! As for the gunsight, yeah i agree. I have the same problem with the "tube" sight in this sim, even though it was the first gunsight i learned how to use in the Viper, and to this day is the one i fall back to when things get nasty. The problem is, that is not how that sight is supposed to operate. The "tube" or the "funnel" needs to show the computed trajectory of the gun fire, superimposed over fixed area of space roughly equal to an F-15 wingspan. Thus as you change your energy state and pull or unload g's, the funnel is supposed to change with it. In level flight it's supposed to be asymptoticly flat near the ends, and slowly dropping down near the middle. During high gees, the middle section is supposed to elongate and stratch like a rubber band in the direction opposite to your lift vector, dragging the sides with it. The way you aim it, is you try to place the enemy's wing span inside the this funnel (matching for AC wingspan, an eagle should touch the lines I.E.) and place the crosshair over the target. However the lines are too rigid and inert in this version, especially during rolling maneuvers, so you can't count on them to give you precise bandit orientation. To make things worse, the crosshair doesn't seam to calculate any lead at all, making the entire gunsight system almost unusable. If i have permition, i can record and post a video of how this gunsight works in Falcon, just for illustration and comparisson. Cheers and good flying!

Sorry to have been away for so long, but what for most people is holiday season, for me are the 2 most busy months of the year. Up until mid january, i will be hard pressed to fly, let alone post. However here are two vids i finally got to upload this evening. As i mentioned, i decided to fly the "adversaries" this time, against the F-14A (74). I would really like to see what a g-limiter could do the TF30 powered cats when in AI hands. These two bouts are with unmodded birds though. Hop 1; Me in a "Super" Skyhawk, clean, guns only. Starting level at angels 15, neutral merge at 5nm. Being in a plane with no A-A radar, the video starts only after i acquired a visual on the bandit in external view. In later flight i managed to develop my visual acquisition skills better but i decided to upload the first one. I have read that the adversary A4's were made lighter and up-engined to make them better performers. If so, i found it really hard to notice. Maybe i should one day take them against stock A4. The Tomcat outperforms me in every way, except maybe extremely slow, tight turns. But flying the A4 against F-5's and F-14A's made me destinguish between tight and hard turning. The A4 may be the former, but certainly not the latter. You could turn inside virtually everything, but maintaining a turn for any prolonged period of time, as well the turn rate it self is not spectacular. I am still learning the AC, but my respect for the NAVY instructors just went up exponentially. If they could fight and humble naval aviators flying Tomcats and Hornets in these nimble but underpowered craft, they must have been woth their weight in platinum. In the first minute of this fight i try to both conserve my energy and get into a better position, but it soon becomes evident i do not have the skills or power to do so. The F-14 is always out of my nose cone. Going into the vertical is not just useless, but it brings the bandit right on my 6. Almost panicking and completely without inspiration i perform a tightest possible immelman, my airspeed dropping to 100KIAS. Fortunately for me the A4 doesn't stall easily. On my pullout i find the F-14 in my sights. Without missiles i can't do much though. Acquiring a nose one and staying on the 6 of a plane that sustains a turn better then you in all regimes are two diferent things. I try to get a high deflection shot, but without a lead computing gunsight it's a full's errant at this point. I unload, recover some energy (those upgraded engines do pay off i guess) and go after him again. Another snap shot oportunity, but i decide to conserve the ammo. I start to realise my chance for an early victory has passed and considering my options i remember the one thing you should never ever do when flying large planes that sustain their turns well........ under no circumstances go one circle, nose to nose with a small nimble guns weilding bandits! So i do just that, i reverse my turn. The F-14 manages to match my nose pointing, but i repeat the process. On my second reversal i tighten my turn even more and voila! I get a nose on first. I send off a few bursts and one of them connects, but the F-14 is still flying. I set up for another reversal and turn into him. But something must be wrong, he is floating ahead. That burst must have cost him some maneuvering devices. I pull some lead and send him burning into the ocean. Hop 2. This time i fly the F-5A, same conditions as before. We merge from neutral as he sends some tracers my way. The diference in performance is overwhealming. The F-5 maybe have been a nimble and maneuverable opponent in its own right, but the power available when comapred to the A4 brings it into a league of its own. This plane wants to be flown fast, fast as in low to mid 400's. And it sustains it's G's well into that region. Maybe even too well. When going up against the AI, the adversary would put it in continous 7-8G turn until you black out trying to stay with him. So i go into a left hand turn after him, trying to bring him on my nose. Out turn starts getting a bit oblique until i get completely inverted. This is a rare treat for me, as i love fighting in the vertical, but the AI is so reluctant on pushing it. We enter a short series of displacement rolls that end up with him right under my nose. By this time he has bleed him self dry and is starting a downward spiral to maintain his turn rate. The ocean is near though, there won't be much diving space. I have kept my energy however, and i start trading knots for angles. He reverses his turn and goes for guns defense. I try several bursts but i fail to hit him. Not so much because of his evasive manuvers, but because the gunsight seams a bit off and i can't exaclty put my finger by how much or in which direction. I try both excess and lack of lead and i still can hit him. So i decide to pull extra lead and spray an entire arc across him. It works........shamless of me, but it works.... Splash Tomcat #2. Long story short, the F-5 is a powerful plane, at least in this incarnation. In AI hands and in human hands as well. It feels like a Bug, but not as refined. My only problem is the gunsight, which i may need to get used to. The A4 is a diferent story. I will have to learn much more to master it.

That's great news guys, i'm all for increasing AI's survivability.