Todt Von Oben

Well, it looks like it takes time for the claims to be confirmed and some never do. That's life. Manfred used to collect souvenirs: a serial number cut from the fabric of a downed plane, one of the guns, etc. What we can do is collect screen grabs recording the moment of victory. I took the advice of some of the guys here and put the Pause button on my stick. Makes it possible to capture Kodak Moments like this one: You can start a Campaign File in your computer. (Honor system, gentlemen please.) And number each kill with the appropriate date. Do it on a Word Document and you can even add a narrative describing the action. That'd be one way of doing it. Mightn't get you any medals, but you'd know what the score is. Prost! TvO

Quite right. Good catch. The Gnome or Obereusel would be rotary engines. Something like the Pratt and Whitney R-985 (common on D-18 Beechcraft and many crop dusters) would be a radial. :yes:

Thanks Rick. I'll try it that way. Prost! TvO

Let's say you down three Spad XIII's in a single campaign flight. The machine says you shot down a S-13 each time. These are separate engagements in one flight. Should you log them as 3 S-13's; or fill in three sections, one each, for a S-13, describing each action in the comments section? I ask because I just downed 2 S-13's, logged them as three separate planes; and the claim in my dossier lists only one S-13, witnessed and pending confirmation. BTW: I guess it just takes time for the claims to be confirmed. On my first campaign flight I got one kill; on the second I got two. Been six flights since then. The first three kills just now got confirmed. That's about right, though. I guess it would take time for the paperwork to get done. Prost! TvO

Probably shouldn't do this, but just for the sake of being grisly... January, 1971. Mike 3/1 pos outside Dai Loc, across the Song Vu Giah from the Arizona Territory. Mister Charles made the mistake of trying to turn one of our Claymore mines around last night. He got spotted with a starlight scope and the grunt on duty tripped the hell box. Charlie must have been hunkered down over the thing when it went off, because the next day there were pieces of him sprayed across the overhead tree canopy and surrounding bushes. The remains got collected up in a rain poncho and carried back to where the CUPP unit was camped. The corporal called Hill 55 and told them about the kill. There was a Lieutenant over on Hill 37 who just had to see it for himself. Got carried to the site in a Huey. The squad's Navy Corpsman throws back the poncho, and starts pointing with a bamboo stick. "Yes sir, this appears to be a tibia...I believe these are fragments of upper thoracic region...that's a large section of the skull and the frothy pink gray stuff inside is brain matter...." 'Bout that time the Lieutenant looked like he was going to toss his cookies, turned around, and walked away. And, oh yeah..... it got confirmed. Prost! TvO

Bullethead said: Exiting the campaign is probably what hosed you. You should just "end flight", the top option on the list when the hit ESC. That's what I do, bro. Lately the claims forms have been coming up right on schedule, just as you describe. I'm guessing on the times when it didn't come up, somebody else put more lead into the target than I did; so they got the kill. Used to happen in Red Baron. Apparently, the game takes things into consideration that I might not be aware of. Bullethead said: Personally, I just don't see how so many folks get so wrapped up by whether their claims are accepted or rejected. It's very simple. You ONLY get the claim form to fill in at all if you actually did shoot something down. So that's your confirmation right there. As TvO said above, "you have the deep satisfaction of having "served the fatherland", regardless of whether the claim ends up being accepted or rejected. And then you have the replay that tells you how many planes you actually shot down if it's more than 1. So YOU as a player ALWAYS know your true score, regardless what the pencil-pushers say. I'll cosign that. It's kind of nice to rack up a score, if you're working toward a medal in this game. But as MvR said (words to the effect) "It doesn't matter if you get credit for it. What matters is that he goes down." Right now I'm still waiting for six witnessed claims (where the game said I shot the plane down) to be confirmed. But it's no biggy. The story is written in the claims for me to reminisce over, anyway. I know I scored and lived to fight another day. BUT...the fact that I'm still waiting for witnessed and game-acknowledged kills to be confirmed has me wondering if I'm writing the claims wrong. I'm writing a monologue describing the flight and the fight. I pause the game, check the map, and get the coordinates where the guy went in. I write all that down. Witness are my flight members. Doesn't seem to be working, though. Or does it just take a long time for the claims to be confirmed by the Remington Raiders in the rear with the gear? Some of you guys who regularly lodge successful claims: how do you write them down? What info? What format? Perspiring minds want to know... Prost! TvO

Okay! I've got it working. Just tested it with a QC where I downed a Nieuport. When I get something "special" I'll post it. Thanks for the help! Prost! TvO

Heh! Yeah, I know. But I've got so little free time; and then I get hung up in playing rather than reading. That's the ticket. Thanks, Ski! :yes:

The way I understand it, there were a lot of pilot deaths due to training and flying accidents. That's just the nature of the beast. I think the only thing one can do is understand and get a feel for what the airplane wants to do. Some say those who mastered the Camel found its instability a plus factor: if used properly, instability can enable a fighter pilot to maneuver more quickly. The gyroscopic precession effect increases with the severity of the turn: it's milder in a shallow turn, than it is in a steep turn. One tries to use that to his advantage. Problem for me is: in a dogfight, I'm often flying near 80 degrees of bank, using the interchange between rudder and elevator to keep the nose up and the turn tight. I'm maneuvering aggressively. When I tried that in a Camel, I usually had the same result as you: lose control and auger in. Funny thing is: I don't experience that problem with the DR1, which is also a radial. Wonder why...? So that's part of the reason why I prefer the German planes. The early Albatros didn't seem (to me) to break a wing as quickly as a Nieuport would; and late in the war, I'm in a D-VII, and it flies like a dream. (Or a nightmare, depending on which side of the guns you are.) Prost! TvO

Okay. Got 1.28 properly installed and working. Unzipped it with a trial version of Winzip to see if it would work. Will probably buy Winzip in the future. I don't have a LOT of experience flying OFF/BHAH, so it's difficult to make meaningful comparisons...but relative to what I was seeing before, what I'm experiencing now seems greatly improved on many levels. For one thing, shooting people down was a long process of expending lots of ammo and eventually they went in. I just did a flight where we encountered some two-seaters while we were enroute to attack an aerodrome. Picked one out, lucked into a good firing angle (firing down into his cockpit area from pretty close range as he pulled up in front of me), hit him with about 100 rounds and WOW! Debris was flying, half a wing came off, and people were being tossed clear of the wreckage in mid air. AI is very aggressive. Right after I got the one, I was hit (by a Nieuport flying fighter support, I think; only got a glimpse of him) and promptly disabled. All I could do to put it down in an open field without crashing. The clouds, the rain, the graphics, the sounds: all seem better. I think there's a new item in the Workshop that enables me to control the graphics, but I haven't touched it yet as everything seems to be working well in that regard. Again: Kudos to you, gentlemen. Great game! Prost! TvO

Me, too. Still using a Sidewinder joystick, but crabbing is no problem. And I find the effect in the game very comparable to what I experienced crabbing in to land my little stick-and-rudder taildragger. I think the game has it about right in that regard. Prost! TvO

GENERAL FUNCTION OF THE GAME: I don't know whether I have the 1.26 patch working correctly or not, but the game seems to be working right, and that's what counts. Don't know what the 1.28 patch can fix but will install it soon just for GP. CLAIMS, KILLS, ETC.: Wondered why I didn't see a claim form at the end of a Campaign mission when I thought I shot one down. Just finished another mission and the claim form was there. I guess the game knows whether you actually shot the plane down, or it went in primarily from other causes. A note on filling out claim forms: I'm about to learn if spelling witnesses names right matters. I think it probably will. COOL FLIGHT: My last one. Flying a DR-1 on a Recce from Albert to Arras up North. Got into a furball with a bunch of RAC Sopwith Camels. The Tripe flies nicely. Shot up a couple Camels; focused on one flown by (an Ace I guess) "John Todd" and the machine said I shot him down. About a minute later, two of John's buddies jumped me in tandem and shot me up pretty severely during a low altitude turning fight over No-Man's Land at the Front. Started to roll uncontrollably. Almost crashed. Used power, rudder, and elevator to get her down on both wheels in the mud. Checked the map and then taxied to our side of the lines. Walked home from there. This time, the game reminded me to fill out a claim form when I ended the mission, and a form appeared. Hoping to have the kill confirmed. Anyway guys, it seems to be working pretty well. Don't know what improvements the 1.28 patch will provide, but we'll see. COMPARISONS TO OTHER GAMES: Of course, much better graphics than RB3D. Like the sounds better, too. The Obereusel rotary on the DR-1 has that "braaaaapp!" sound like I'd expect from using a mag sequencer switch. The campaign seems more intense, and the AI just flies better. Sometimes, they are actually surprising with the maneuvers they pull. They don't half-step about bringing it to your six, either. Much better than RB3D. Probably other things I could say, but that's all that comes to mind right now. Good Game, Guys! Prost! TvO

Great paint jobs! Glad you didn't collide and wreck 'em! :yes:

I noticed that, after flying QC, the game automatically provides a form to file a claim and reminds me to do so. I was expecting the same in Campaign, but hit a snag. I just started a campaign with Jasta 11 flying a DR-1. Wingman's name was Willy Gund. I chased a Spad XIII and downed him. Not far from our aerodrome, and I flew over the wreck a couple times to make sure my wingman saw it. Then I paused the game to write down the coordinates of the crash. Had all the claims info ready to go. I flew the rest of the mission until there were no more goals to accomplish. After I landed, I shut down the engine and waited a while for the other guys to land. Then I hit ESC to exit the campaign. Then I went to the mission report, and there were my hits and I sure enough downed a Spad XIII serial number 1F7A. But at no time did I ever see anything directing me to a place where I could file a claim. So there was no claim filed, and no credit for the kill. Kind of reminds me of that scene from The Blue Max... Schtakel: "But it was a KILL!" Adjutant: "Then you have the deep satisfaction of knowing you have served the Fatherland." :yes: Anyway, did I miss something? Where's the Claims form? Where does one go to file a claim after scoring a kill in Campaign? Prost! TvO

Thank you for your patience, Griphos. I'm going there now to check it out. I can see I really must familiarize myself with the manual before doing anything else. Prost! TvO

V. Kurtz said: looked over some of those claims and I didn't think the game would accomodate a claim report that large! I kept things ridiculously short because I figured the game wouldn't like the more complicated combat reports I used to do for Red Baron 3d. (which was just for fun). I flew many campaigns in RB3D and afterwards the mission description simply told me what happened. I never even saw a claim form. Where is that, exactly? (I'd like to load my old game and see if the claim form keeps me from losing a kill to someone else.) Prost! TvO P.S. Oh wait. I get it. You just used to make your own reports for fun, not as part of the game. I shoulda known. I used to keep a log book and write realistic-sounding accounts of the events. Great fun! As for the question...nevermind.

In five separate flights, I put in five separate claims. Didn't know what to say when they asked for a witness. The only other guy there was my wingman, so I put "Wingman". The only one that got confirmed was the one where I ran out of ammo and chopped off the EA's tail with my prop; and i imagine those who pulled me out of the wreck and sent me to the hospital for 24 days confirmed that one. So...where do you get the name for your witness? Thanks! TvO

A while ago i asked and was told that (when I sign up for a bomber) there's a way to be the gunner rather than the pilot. So far, all the options I see make me the pilot, and my gunner is an AI. What options do I select to become the gunner / observer? Danke! TvO

Thanks Griphos. I asked that question while away from the computer that has my OFF game installed. Afterwards I got to it and found what you say is true. The "G" key didn't work for me, but F8 got me into the back seat. I tried it in a campaign. The first time was a bombing mission. Didn't even see an EA. I tried shooting up our empenage and wings: no can do. I got bored and fired at a friendly. Yes, you can shoot them down. (Just experimenting.) The next mission was a scramble. I hit "E" to engage the engine starting sequence, and then jumped in the back seat. The game said the pilot had control, but we just sat on the tarmack. I jumped back into the pilot's seat, took off, and then became the gunner. And you're right: the AI pilot just flew to the waypoints. I never even got to fire at an EA, and we didn't get hit. Will try it in QC later on tonight to see if the pilot dogfights. Will report back later for the group's general info. Prost! TvO

Cool, guys; thanks a lot. Sorry for not having read the manual yet. Busy working...just got the game...kinda learning as I go. Will make it a point to read it soon. One other question if I may: when I'm in the back seat firing the gun, who's flying the plane? I mean, does AI take over, or do I set auto trim, or ??? Thanks again. TvO

Okay. I'm not a WWI flightsim rookie. I flew all three versions of Red Baron for quite a few years, and I think I have a reasonable understanding of what it takes to shoot down an AI aircraft. Enough, at least, to say that, when I'm flying OFF/BHAH, and I'm on a QC mission, and I pump a few rounds into a Nieuport 11 so he slows down his maneuvering, and then I spend the rest of the flight close on his six, expending my entire 1000 round allotment from my Spandaus into all parts of his empenage, cockpit, and engine compartment, from a variety of angles behind, below, and from the side, AND HE STILL REFUSES TO GO DOWN, something might be wrong. This has happened to me a couple times in QC. in contrast, enemy bullets seem to be of the explosive variety; and come at a rate that damages so many parts of my plane so quickly it just can't be right. I was flying a Tross III and chasing a Spad VII all over the sky after pumping 1000 rounds into him. He would not go down! I finally closed in from behind at low altitude, chopped his tail off with my prop, and down we both went. I survived the crash, spent 24 days in the hospital, and when I returned THAT was the only one of my claims that was confirmed! Anybody else experiencing anything like this? Prost! TvO

Bullethead said: "I use the normal dispersion, which I think is quite wide enough." I still haven't made sure I've got the patch loaded properly....tomorrow maybe. But tonight I set the dispersion to the tightest pattern, and went after a Spad 13 in my Fokker D7 several times in QC. Dinged him from a distance, closed in, got hits in deflection and from his six. Seeing chunks fly off. Whatayaknow? They do flame and go down! One time I pulled right in under him at a high pitch angle and blasted away. We was so close, when he blew up his plane fell on top of mine and I went down, too. Hit the Pause to see what I looked like. Bottom wings gone; fuselage torn up; top wingtips gone; flip-flopping like a fresh caught fish, and I was on fire, too. (Didn't matter, though. The game message said I got killed in the impact between our two planes.) Scanned around and couldn't see him anywhere. Must have gone to pieces in the explosion and collision. Yes, I'm definitely seeing some effect from my bullets now. Great fun! Prost! TvO

On the subject in general of what causes bullet dispersion on WW1 aircraft firing machineguns: There was a TV show not long ago...on the Discovery Channel maybe...where they got into analyzing who really shot Von Richthofen down. Was it Brown in the air; or Popkin or Bewie (sp?) on the ground? They did some computer analysis; fired lasers at actual aircraft; etc. You've probably seen it. Didn't that program get into what the prime causes of bullet spread on an MG fired from this kind of airframe was? Did they actually do one demonstration where they fired a gun mounted on the cowling of a vintage aircraft at a target, to show how few rounds actually hit their mark? Didn't they also do something similar using computer simulations? I wish I could remember exactly what they said about the pros and cons of aircraft mounted machineguns. What I do seem to remember is that the forces involved tended to spread the rounds out a lot; and from any appreciable range, one would be lucky if a small percentage of his bullets found their mark. Did anybody take the time to record that program? Any specs available from the research those guys did? Prost! TvO

The motor was just one source of dispersion. There are a host of factors that add to MG dispersion, most of which affect ground-mounted guns as well as those in WW1 planes :). True. Even on a sandbagged tripod with a T&E there's gonna be dispersion for a variety of reasons. Just thought I'd throw that A/C engine vibration thing out there to see if it seemed to you that the game takes that into consideration. Have you ever just fired your guns on the ground, without even starting the motor? Yes, but only for the heck of it and without any analysis value intended. Just fooling around, I must admit. You'll see your tracer scattering out over a fairly wide area. It's especially visible from the external view in front of your plane. Look down your own barrel and see how the bullets come at you differently every time. Ha! Now THERE'S a HELL of a good idea! (And also something you'll never do more than once in real life. ) That never even occurred to me, but I am DEFINITELY going to try it. Thanks! While there's no way to tell for sure, it looks to me like the best you can hope for with normal dispersion is that a bullet will hit somewhere within about 3-4 feet of your point of aim at about 100 yards (IOW, within a circle 6-8' wide). That's about the same as I could do back in the day firing the old 7.62mm M60 off my shoulder, without benefit of any sort of gun mount, so I'd think airplane guns should shoot a bit tighter. I think that kind of impact density at 100 meters firing free-gun is pretty realistic. Standing up with the 100-round assault pack, and with the weapon pushed a little out in front of you, leaning into it aggressively, and using what they call "Quick Kill" target engagement technique: you can get pretty good at putting the rounds where they need to go. Obviously, accuracy improves on the bipods, or on a tripod with a T&E, so yeah: I think the results of a rigid mount on an aircraft should be better than free gun until that aircraft movement and engine vibration thing comes into play. Then things should spread out a bit. So all things considered, if we're seeing a similar spread under both conditions, then I'd think we're doing pretty good in either case. But OTOH, I'm a Marine; maybe flyboys just inherently can't shoot as well? The Marines are legendary for their marksmanship. I've never done a study, but I wouldn't be surprised if the best shots among aviators are in the Marine Air Wing. Regardless, I'm quite sure that in their quest for realism, OBD set their system up so that normal dispersion most closely matched what they considered the most realistic, taking all the various factors into account. They know far more knowledgeable about the subject of WW1 airplane guns than I am, so I take their word for it. The various patches always seem to install just fine. Remember, each patch includes all the previous fixes, so even if somehow something got hosed to begin with, putting in the latest patch should set it right. I believe you. I, too, think they've done a fine job. I know nothing about installing computer patches, but I'm pretty sure I botched it somewhere along the line. We'll know this weekend. Actually, I'm pretty optimistic I can get if figured out. You still in the Corps? I worked in the 0331 section (M-60) for two classes at 2nd BITBN in Camp Pendleton back in early 1970. Overseas with Bravo 1/9, 3rd MARDIV; and Mike 3/1, 1st MARDIV. Drop me a PM sometime if you feel like yackin'. I'd like to hear what things are like these days. Prost! TvO

When I began flying Red Baron, I found myself coping with unfamiliar technologies in a combat situation. At first, it was hard to even find the other plane, let alone lock on and shoot it. After a while, I got pretty good at it: managed to survive from 1915 through Armistace Day a few times, and on those campaigns logged several hundred victories each. I'd talk about it with the one buddy I have over here who also played RB3D. And what always hit us was the reality of the situation. Yes, we talk about shooting down famous Aces; battles where we scored many kills before running out of ammo; etc. But there was always that little humbler there, too. We were the product of many, many "lives" in the air. We started out learning to crawl: trying to figure out the machine before becoming aggressive with it. Learning to fly without breaking it, etc. It didn't matter if we got killed: we could simply sign on as another pilot, and have the benefit of all we'd learned. We could try every foolish trick in the book, just to see if we could get away with it. We were like Cylons: to die is to be immediately reborn as another pilot. It's easy to get skilled that way, when all the lessons you've learned in past lives come with you. The reality of it is truly humbling. The guys in WWI who did this for real only had one shot at it. Flight was in its infancy; there were so many ways the planes could kill you it wasn't funny. Plus, those guys were doing it 24-7, through all weather, with all the physical and emotional stress that war involves. High altitude, thin air, freezing temperatures, lost friends, etc. And they only had one chance to get it all right. That's what really trips my respect hammer when I think of people like Von Richthofen, Ball, Guynemer, Voss, Rickenbacker, and the rest. They did all they did first time out of the barn, and did it for real. Here, we have fun with WWI air combat. I do it for enjoyment, and to unwind after work. I can only imagine what it must have really been like for those who did it back in the great war. And when I try to imagine it, I am filled with awe. Prost! TvO