BirdDogICT

Tamper, I agree. Simpler is better. I used to write technical manuals for an electronics company, so excuse me for being verbose. I recognize that not everyone wants to know how his/her computer works. Not everyone likes to tinker with his/her car, either. But if you want to build a computer, you have to know a little bit about how the pieces go together. My intent was to point out that going from 2 to 4 memory modules causes unintended consequences with memory speed and timings. Not just opinion, but a well-documented fact. The best advice we can offer is to get back to a 2-up configuration and reduce memory speed and/or timings. Then test the system with reduced sliders in BHaH. Respectfuly yours

You're absolutely right. FSB and memory speeds don't necessarily have to be linked. I've just found that my builds have been more stable when I don't have to use a memory divider. Cheers

I appreciate the comment. I assume that you're overclocking with only 1 or 2 memory slots filled. When you start populating all four memory slots (if I understand correctly what PhantomJoker has done) it causes some problems, especially if he's trying to overclock. Did I miss something here? Mostly just thinking out loud about what he might try as far getting his hardware to behave. Always helps me to go back to basics when I'm having problems. Cheers

Joker, Looking back over the threads from the old OFF forum, it looks like you're using an E8400 processor, and it's default FSB is 333 with a divider of 9 (1333 MHz quad pumped). CPU Frequency = Front Side Bus x Multiplier 333MHz FSB x 9 = 3000MHz is the default CPU frequency If we increase the FSB to 400MHz, the CPU will be overclocked substantially; 400 MHz FSB x 9 = 3600MHz Because the memory bus is linked to the FSB frequency, as you overclock, the memory speed also increases. Motherboard’s offer various memory speeds by utilising different divider settings. And if we want to overclock your machine with a 333MHz FSB processor, the following dividers are available (FSB:DRAM); PC2-5400 memory (667 MHz effective, 333 MHz actual) = a 1:1 ratio PC2-6400 memory (800 MHz effective, 400MHz actual) = a 5:6 ratio PC2-8500 memory (1066 MHz effective, 533 MHz actual) = a 5:8 ratio However, if you overclocked your FSB to 400, you would need the following dividers and memory speeds: (1/1) x 400MHz FSB = 400MHz (800MHz effective – PC2-6400 or better needed) (6/5) x 400MHz FSB = 480MHz (960MHz effective – PC2-8000 or better needed) (8/5) x 400MHz FSB = 640MHz (1280MHz effective – even PC2-10,000 isn’t enough!) Since you have chosen to populate all 4 memory slots with PC2-6400 memory, you have limited your overclocking choices. To maintain stability, you'll need to set your FSB at 333, Multiplier at 9, and memory speed to 667 MHz to maintain a 1:1 FSB:DRAM ratio. Even though the Mushkin is excellent overclocking memory, you'll need to run it at slower speeds with your current configuration. Looks like you'll be running at 3.0 GHz. Also, keep in mind that the number of memory modules used has an effect on utilize EPP or XMP performance profiles. Some BIOS implementations will not allow the selection of these options when running 4-up. Operation in the 4-up configuration is not a defined part of the EPP or XMP standard, and users running 4-up will have to set memory settings manually. That means you won't be able to use automatic settings in your BIOS. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but the math is simple enough... Cheers

almccoyjr, eVGA just issued new drivers on 3/16/09 for Joker's motherboard for XP 32-bit: http://www.evga.com/support/drivers/default.asp?switch=2 eVGA released new BIOS SZ17 on 1/26/09 that addresses CPU multiplier issues. Yet to see a BIOS update that addresses correct recognition of memory SPD. Don't know that I would try flashing BIOS at this point. http://www.evga.com/forums/tm.asp?m=758599 I went back to the old OFF forum, and read previous posts on Joker's problems...sounds like there has been a lot of advice, but still appears to be a memory problem to me. I also looked at eVGA's manual for the 780i board, and thought it was pretty sketchy. As much control as you have through BIOS, you'd think they'd provide better documentation. Maybe try some of the eVGA forums for suggestions. The 15 minute crash with OFF sounds like a heat-related problem...lots of people with this board are adding case fans due to the Northbridge fan blowing directly onto the graphics card. Cheers

almccoyr, I see a couple of potential problems with this setup (I'm not trying to be pendantic here, just making sure my arguments are spelled out): 1. More RAM, going from 2GB to 4GB --- When populating all four memory slots (i.e.; “4-up”) you are placing a greater electrical load on the memory controller than 2-up. This increased load can result in instability if the BIOS is not tuned or tweaked to compensate. You have to make certain that your motherboard BIOS allows adjustments to the memory controller voltage. You also have to be certain that the motherboard is capable of cooling the memory controller as it will generate more heat with 4-up and the increased voltage. Most motherboard manufacturers put a hard cap on memory speed in this situation to increase stability...in the case of the eVGA 780i, the hard cap is 1088 MHz. The increased load of 4-up is not an additional load on the memory modules and can't be addressed simply by increasing memory voltage. The motherboard typically supplies the BIOS set voltage to each slot, regardless of how many slots are filled. Increasing the memory voltage over the rated voltage should only be necessary when overclocking or using memory that exceeds the JEDEC specifications for voltage. Additionally, the inability to address 4GB is a limitation of a 32-bit operating system. In Windows, the Windows memory manager is limited to a 4 GB physical address space. Most of that address space is filled with RAM, but not all of it. Memory-mapped devices (such as your video card) will use some of that physical address space, as will the BIOS ROMs. After all the non-memory devices have had their say, there will be less than 4GB of address space available for RAM below the 4GB physical address boundary. We tend to forget that video cards are memory mapped devices. That means that you have to have memory that has stable communication with the CPU if you want good video performance. 2. Tightening the timings---The allure of faster memory speeds tends to make us a little careless when trying to improve performance. This is compounded by DDR2 and DDR3 memory that offers higher bandwidth through faster speeds but with looser timings. Now the higher your memory speed, generally speaking the better, (i.e., higher bandwidth is good). But bandwidth has to be matched to your FSB speed and ability of your memory controller to handle the bandwidth. Think about bandwidth as a highway. If DDR800 is say an 8 lane highway, than DDR1066 is say a 12 lane highway...meaning it has the ability to pass more data. That doesn't mean it will pass more data, but that it could, in theory. But it depends on your memory timings. With older DDR memory 220MHz (using CL2-2-2-5) = 260 MHz (using CL2.5-3-3-7) = 300 MHz (using CL2.5-4-3-7) (Timings: CAS-Trcd-Trp-Tras). In other words, memory running at 220 MHz with faster timings performs the same as memory running at 300MHz with slower timings. We can lower the memory timings on the DDR800 or 8 lane highway so that it's "speed limit" is higher than the high latency DDR1066 or 12 lane highway. If the goal is to get the most data or cars moved from point A to point B as fast as possible, then this makes sense. Since the cars on the 8 lane highway are traveling faster, they are gonna get from point A to point B faster. Unless there are so many cars, so much data, that they cannot fit on the 8 lane highway...then the 12 lane highway will be faster. As things sit today, with our current CPUs, an 8 lane highway or DDR800 is usually more than enough. 3. With your motherboard, you're better off linking and syncing FSB to RAM to provide the most stability & performance, while also allowing for better latencies. Most agree that a 1:1 FSB to RAM Ratio works the best for a balance of stability and performance. Meaning the memory is running at the same speed as the FSB. Basic terms you probably already know: FSB This is basically how fast your CPU talks to the rest of your system. It (along with the multiplier)is also a contributing factor in determining overall CPU speed. Faster is better in most cases. QDR This is the effective FSB speed, found by simply multiplying the true FSB times four. (4 x FSB=QDR) True FSB speed is more important. Faster is better in most cases. Multiplier This along with FSB determines how fast your CPU operates. (266 x 9 = 2400Mhz or 2.4Ghz) Notice how the QDR is not included in this equation. Higher multipliers are generally better. So using the following CPU as an example (I'm not sure which CPU you are using): If you have a 266Mhz FSB, 1:1 with memory would be achieved running DDR533. Remember memory is double data rate. The equation looks like this (DDRMhz= 2 x RamMhz : FSBMhz x 4 =QDR) = 1:1 or....2.4Ghz or 2400Mhz (DDR533= 2 x 266Mhz : 266Mhz x 4 = 1066QDR) = 1:1 =2400Mhz Now if you wanted to overclock to say 3.6Ghz or 3600Mhz...it would look like this. (DDR800= 2 x 400Mhz : 400Mhz x 4 = 1600QDR) = 1:1 =3600Mhz Many people are buying DDR2 1066 memory wanting to run it 2x as fast as their FSB, or a 2:1 ratio. This rarely results in a stable system. My advice would be to lower the memory speed and timings, possibly as low as 533 MHZ in order to get stable performance with all four memory slots populated. Hope this helps....

Tamper, Glad to know (I guess) that I'm not alone. I didn't want to elaborate more on my own experience, recognizing that you've been much more involved in the process. I'm just adding my voice to the discussion hoping to help other BHaH users. I've been able to offer a lot of helpful advice to ATI card users, due to trying every conceivable combination of graphics settings to make my graphics problem go away (and let's not mention the fact that I would have never solved it without my mildly obsessive compulsive nature). Cheers

PhantomJoker, I've been following this thread for some time, and thought I'd throw in my two cents worth. My problems with BHaH have been very minor by comparison, and on an older Socket 939 machine. I was running my Corsair PC4400 memory at the settings it is guaranteed to run (275 MHz with 3448, 2T timings), and like you, I had no problems with any other game, but experienced minor graphics glitches with BHaH (i.e., AA and AF would turn off at higher resolutions). As it turned out, my memory was 2D stable at stock settings, but not 3D stable, something that doesn't show up with tests like Memtest. I've now "declocked" the memory to the memory stick's SPD timings (3338, 2T) and everything is fine. I've been building PCs for 20 years, and it had me stumped for a while. Unfortunately, setting memory timings is sometimes a trial and error process, but starting with SPD timings is usually the best approach, before you start making changes in front side bus speeds and memory dividers. Hope this helps.

The Mightysrc, There are some additional settings through Workshop that you can turn down that will improve FPS: Aircraft Skins (they are stunning at Normal Resolution, even more so at High Resolution, but won't show damage. Low Res still looks much better than RB3D) Ground Object Density (reduces the number of objects the game will have to render...you should notice an increase in FPS at the airport or over towns) In Cloud Fog (rendering fog has been a problem in some games with some ATI cards...no problem with BHaH and my ATI 4870) Regional Air Activity Good Luck

The Mightysrc, Sounds like you have a bandwidth problem...trying to push too much data through. To fix it, try this: 1. Set your monitor to its highest resolution (e.g., 1600X1024). Running at 16 bit is faster than 32 bit, but won't look as good. 2. Apply the CFS3 Config Overrides and Texture Settings described above by Interlocutor (these should be considered mandatory tweaks). They are also found here http://www.overflandersfields.com/Tips.htm). Additional checks might include the following: Disable Warning Boxes (turning off messages and warnings made a big difference for me) Disable Chat Disable Advisor Messages Disable Simulation Warnings Disable In Cloud Effect Disable Prop Discs 3. Set sliders to 222222. If your performance is okay, bump them up a notch, starting with aircraft, then terrain, then scenery. 4. Some people have good luck setting AA within the game and others prefer to use Catalyst. Small amounts of AA can really improve the appearance without a big FPS hit. I'm using 4X (Edge Filter) through Catalyst 9.3 with good results. 5. Setting AF in Catalyst can reduce shimmering of landscape, but reduces FPS. I'm using Catalyst AF setting of 8X. You might try 2X to start and then bump it up. 6. Turn off Catalyst AI and Adaptive AA. It's challenging at first, but you'll get the hang of it in about two months. LOL It took me that long, as my installation was complicated by some additional driver and memory timings problems. It's worth taking the time to iron out any problems, though. Even if you have to run low slider settings, the game will still look great. The objective is to get smooth gameplay, i.e.; average FPS of 25 without stuttering. Good Luck

Sitting Duck, Since you started this thread, I thought I'd let you know where I finally netted out. I installed TrackIR4 this weekend, and the graphics run flawlessly, with sliders at 354342, 4XAA (Edge Filter), 8XAF, Catalyst AI Off, Adaptive AA Off. Reducing my memory timings and backing off a little on the sliders give me great looking graphics at 20-60 FPS (avg 32 with 10 planes over the airfield), and TrackIR works flawlessly. I no longer see white triangles in the lower corners of the screen when changing views or zooming. You might consider backing off a little on your sliders if you are seeing any artifacts...as you have mentioned in other posts, there doesn't seem to be much visible change in scenery from 4 to 5, but your memory and GPU may be maxed out. Cheers

I received my Track IR4 and TrackClip Pro today. I installed software and then plugged in the unit, and drivers loaded automatically (latest driver version is 4.1.036). Had everything up and running in under 5 minutes, and am amazed by how much easier it is to keep track of enemies. Still very tough, but WAY more fun. And I no longer auger into the ground when I'm target fixated by the padlock view. I couldn't find my headset, so am using the TrackClip on my hat instead of the infrared TrackClip Pro. Anyone out there done a side-by-side comparison? Is there any advantage to using the TrackClip Pro? Cheers

I have been extremely happy with my CH Products setup (but about $400 in total). I have a CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Rudder Pedals, and they have outlasted similar Thrustmaster products I've owned. CH's programming interface is easy to use, and you can find joystick profiles here http://www.ch-hangar.com/ You might check out EBay listings, in my experience, CH products really hold up well over the long haul. BTW, I don't work for CH, just another happy customer. http://cgi.ebay.com/CH-Products-Fightersti...idZp1638Q2em122 Cheers

Ovs, Thanks for the advice. I've used the usual tweaks (http://www.overflandersfields.com/Tips.htm) with good success, and Sitting Duck, Interlocutor, Olham, uncleal, and I have a lenghty thread (http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showtopic=37750&hl=) on the best graphics settings with newer ATI graphics cards. I had some interesting problems getting BHaH graphics to behave with my system due to some funky CPU drivers and memory timings, but got them ironed out. As a frame of reference, my 939 socket rig is: ASUS A8R-32MVP motherboard, 2GB Corsair PC4400Pro DDR memory, 512MB ATI HD4870 graphics card, Opteron 185 dual core processor overclocked to 3.0 GHz with XP SP3. I'm running game sliders at 354342 with 4X AA (Edge Filter) and 8X AF (through Catalyst 9.3) at 1600X1024 and excellent FPS (FRAPS shows average of 32 FPS in 10 plane furrballs over the runway). I run the AMD Fusion for Gaming utility before I play, increasing my available memory from 76% to 85% (sure makes a difference!!). Terrain and Scenery are spectacular, and the plane details just blow me away. Plus, it's all smooth as a baby's bottom. Cheers

Church, As a frame of reference, I started playing BHaH several months ago on my 3-year old Socket 939 machine, and I was so impressed by what the BHaH developers accomplished that I added an ATI 4870 and Track IR4 ($350+ investment). I'm running at 3.0MHz with DDR550 memory, and it just meets the system requirements for an immersive, stutter-free experience. I'm running game sliders at 354342 with 4X AA and 8X AF (through Catalyst) at 1600X1024 and avg 32 FPS in 10 plane furrballs. You could always turn off AA, AF, and lower your slider settings, and still be miles beyond what you would see an experience with RB3D. Like many other forum users, I've been building PCs for many years. Let me know if you have any questions with your setup. Cheers

Ronbo, I'm a little late to the party, but welcome to BHaH. As an admirer of Kess, i.e.; long time player of Full Canvas Jacket, I think the best way to compare OFF vs FCJ is FCJ=Fishbowl BHaH=No Fishbowl I started playing BHaH several months ago on my 3-year old Socket 939 machine, and I was so impressed by what the BHaH developers accomplished that I added an ATI 4870 and Track IR4 ($350+ investment). I'm running at 3.0MHz with DDR550 memory, and it meets the system requirements for an immersive, stutter-free experience, but just barely. You will need an up-to date PC to play BHaH. I reinstalled RB3D with FCJ last week to see what I was missing with BHaH, and my answer was "Not a thing." I uninstalled FCJ and won't ever be tempted to look back. But it was fun while it lasted.... Cheers

Sitting Duck, I wouldn't mess around with memory timings as long as your system is stable...some games are sensitive to memory latency, while others are not. All bets are off whenever you start overclocking to add another 5-20% of performance, often it's not worth the additional headaches. BTW, to make more memory available for games, I use the AMD Fusion for Gaming utility. You might consider using EndItAll since you have an Intel CPU. When I had my sliders and Catalyst settings maxed out, I experienced white triangles when changing hat views. Now that I backed off my settings, I see them only when zooming in and out. When I get my Track IR, I'll let you know what I find. Those artifacts are usually a sign that you're overtaxing your graphics card, and from what I've read, it's a common problem with Track IR. Some of the more experienced forum members can probably shed light on this problem. I'll read up on it. Cheers

Sitting Duck, Thought I'd share more info about my problem. It seems that fixing my CPU driver didn't solve the problem entirely...after a couple of days I had to move my resolution in BHaH back down to 1360X1024 because AA and AF wouldn't work at the monitor default of 1600X1024. It looked great, so I decided that I'd be happy with it and move on to more important issues. But, thanks to a thread on this forum about the CFS3 addons Mediterranean Air War and European Theater of Operations, I decided to try them. And guess what? I couldn't turn on AA and AF at 1600X1024 with them, either, but 1360X1024 was fine. So I began to suspect a memory problem, since the CFS3 engine is such a memory hog. After some experimentation, I determined that my memory timings were causing a conflict with the game and/or the ATI 4870. There's no need to go into all of the details, but the Infineon chips on my memory sticks are notoriously fickle and aren't always 3D stable at stock settings, even if the sticks show no errors with Memtest. Instead of running 275MHz @ 3-4-4-8, I've declocked the memory to 240MHZ @ 3-3-3-8. That still allows me to run my Opteron 185 @ 3.1GHz, a 20% overclock, without any problems. And I am running BHaH at 1600X1024 with 454342 sliders and up to 60 FPS. I ordered my Track IR4 last night. Can't wait. Cheers

Homeboy, If you liked RB3D, you'll love BHaH. In 20 years of flying, BHaH is the best money I ever spent on a flight sim. I hope you'll enjoy becoming a part of the BHaH community as much as I have. I'm a noob here, too, but have always found members who are willing to answer my questions. Welcome.

ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING...I am continually amazed by what the developers have accomplished. I'm proud to be associated with such a telented group of people, even if it's only as an end user. I've played flight sims for 20 years, and have yet to experience anything that comes close to BHaH. As for the whiners and nit-pickers, they should just shut up and play. BHaH is damned near perfect!! Cheers

Sitting Duck, I still find the best performance/quality at 4X AA with Edge Detect, and AF 8X (there doesn't seem to be a way to set AF within BHaH). You can always bump these up if you wish. As for the other settings, I'll play around with them now that I have FINALLY fixed my minor graphics glitches. As you'll recall from my previous post, I had to limit my resolution to 1360X1024 because I couldn't get consistent AA and AF at 1600X1024 even though it is the default resolution of my monitor. It turns out that I had a BIOS and AMD processor driver conflict (i.e., when I flashed to a newer BIOS some time ago, it made the earlier AMD driver unnecessary. Oddly enough, I've been playing other games at high resolutions for several years without a problem, until I installed a new 4870 to play BHaH). Now everything is absolutely great at 1600X1024. Sometimes chasing down these minor problems amount to "a long run for a short slide" but in this case, I can now move on to the really important work of installing Track IR. Cheers

Interlocutor, Sitting Duck et. al, Sorry to keep beating the same old tired (almost dead) horse, but thought I'd share something interesting. Since getting BHaH, I've been running at 1600X1024, the native resolution of my monitor, and have done all of my tweaks on that resolution. But I've had trouble with AA and AF being consistent from day to day...one day it's fine, the next it's not. I can tolerate the jaggies and shimmering when it's in the landscape, but the planes just didn't look as good as they should. I've tried many combinations of sliders, Catalyst settings, CFS3Config overrides, etc., to no avail. It's been a little frustrating, because I've built PCs for 20 years and know my way around them pretty well. Just on the off chance that it was a resolution problem, I lowered my resolution to 1360X1024, and I can now max out my Catalyst Settings (along with all of the recommended CFS3Config overrides), run sliders of 454444 and get a decent FPS (AVG 25). EVERYTHING LOOKS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC NOW!! I'll probably reduce my sliders somewhat to improve gameplay, but this goes against the FAQ advice of using the highest resolution you can. I need to do some more research as to why, but my unique combination of CPU, memory, GPU, and monitor resulted in one resolution that didn't work, and that's the one I've been sticking with from the beginning. I'm sharing this in case someone else has the same problem. Cheers

Sitting Duck, My impression is that the sliders work as you've described. As far as I can tell, increasing the sliders increases the amount of detail, i.e. more data for your CPU and GPU to handle. I don't know if it's linear, but I haven't noticed much difference once I'm past 3 or 4, although I get a significant drop in FPS. If I max all sliders at 5, FPS drops to around 10. I've had an annoying getting the AA and AF to work consistently. One day they work gret, the next day they don't. It doesn't matter which version of Catalyst drivers I use. I'm beginning to wonder if my PSU is hefty enough for this 4870. But I'm done tweaking BHaH...I can't improve much on a nearly flawless product. Even with AA and AF turned off, it looks great. I decided to load up my old RB3D Full Canvas Jacket today, and couldn't believe how ugly it was by comparison. BHaH really spoils you. I haven't touched my other sims in a month. Cheers

Interlocutor, Yep, 7 +/- 2 is a well established principle of human short term memory...that's why telephone numbers are 7 numbers, in the U.S. at least. Some of our overseas OFF developers may be able to remember 8 or even 9 numbers. They sure have done a fantastic job on Phase 3. I did the same re: reading up on ATI cards and crivers, reading threads and FAQs, but had a buggy driver installation, and none of the tweaks I made seemed to make any difference in improving graphics quality. I tend to tweak things too much, so much so, that one of my PC support staff accused me of not being able to tolerate having a stable PC. I finally started over with a clean driver installation, followed by clean CFS3and BHaH installations, as well. I can now hold off on upgrading my PC for a while, but can't wait for Track IR. Anyone needing help with ATI graphics would do well to duplicate your settings. I've tried them, and they work fine for me, too. Cheers