peter01

The FMs are written for Hard FM mode. They will not work well, or as designed, in Normal or Easy Mode (Flight Models are completely different and inconsistent). And the FMs and campaigns have been designed with Enemy Skill Level in the gameplay options set to Hard. Default gundata is with bullet mass at 65%. This makes it harder for you to shoot down planes, and is far more realistic (and less arcadish), but it also means you will survive longer too - the AI are good shots, but you can take some damage, especially if surprised (as you usually will be). On balance, its easier with reduced bullet mass. Set Hud Display and Visual Targeting to whatever suits - Hard or Normal or Easy. The default download settings means the AI are difficult, and uses the Aircraftobject.ini titled "Hard" as the default. There are copies of various Aircraftobject.inis including the default and stock ones in the OBJECTS directory. Do not use the stock one, only included for completeness sake, its probably the hardest of all!! At this level, the game will be a challenge, and if in campaigns, it will vary considerably depending on your plane's capability, your squadrons experience, and the quality in planes and pilot experience of your opposition. But you can easily enough make the AI harder or easier. To make harder then the default, use the Aircraftobject.ini entitled "Very Hard". Make a copy of the file entitled "AircraftObject Very Hard", delete the "Aircraftobject" file, rename copied file to Aircraftobject.ini. At this level, Aces are as good as you in the same plane or in an equally capable plane. Of course Ace AI are better, if in a better plane. Its as good as you could want the AI. As the AI in campaigns often bounce you from above, surprise you from the rear, or outnumber you (and all three together sometimes), and there will often be some Vets or Aces in the opposition, you can imagine it becomes very tough. Its how engagements are designed, in campaigns especially. If the AI have better planes, you could be surprised, bounced, outnumbered and outflown!!! I don't recommend using this "Very Hard" setting in campaigns, unless you take some time to get positional advantage, pick and choose your fights, are pretty good, and even then........good luck. Its not a instant action type setting. In addition, collisions (AI with AI, player and AI) are reasonably frequent, and later war dogfights are, well, hectic at times. To make easier then the default, use default settings, but set Enemy Skill Level to Normal. The game is easier than default, but AI are still pretty good, collisons are infrequent. Your AI wingmates also have a better chance. Obviously there are more permutations, using the above and other things. But firstly, its designed to be quite hard, and secondly, do not use other Aircraftobject.inis.

Theres a bit I want to say on the FMs, so it'll be a few posts on this thread, but to start, whats included and whats not. If your reading this, and don't have the planes, you could start downloading all the add-on planes available. In fact to get the most out of this, you do need all the planes. This takes some time. And the upload will be ready soon, its a promise. There's about 80 FMs. Some people like Camels and Dr1s and Fokkers D7s, and I do too, but I like Albs and Nieuports more, so there are additional versions of these that require copying say the Nieuport17 folder and renaming etc - it'll be in the Readme. It includes a couple of planes i haven't done before, Laton's Bristol M1c and Bortdafarm's Martinsyde S1 (available only at his site, most of his others are here at Combat Ace). It doesn't include a few FMs, a couple I intend doing at some time in the future, specifically Bortdafarm's Farmans and Albatros D1 and D2s. It doesn't include multi-engined plane FMs such as the Gotha, Staaken etc. However most of these work as AI, and I do recommend you download them, but do download Monty CZ's Caproni Ca3. The FM is fine as is and the plane adds some heavy support to missions etc :).

Theres still more WIP threads to come, but just a couple of other things. One of the aims of all this is to provide a lot of stuff that just works, without too much modding needed. For the regulars that have been playing and enjoying the game for some while to some extent (new FMs), but for players newer to FE. I'm sure down the track that if its easier for newer players, it will attract and retain them. And thats needed. To me, theres no point everybody needing to find out how to make ai only stock planes flyable for example, or perhaps moving from a somewhat easy game to a more challenging one. And by providing modded files, it helps people identify what they can change and mod themselves too. I'm fortunate in the sense that many modders have allowed me to do FMs for their planes, or use their mods. So for better or worse, I guess, thats how this modded game plays, to a certain extent its up to me, at least initially. Now, once all this is ready, I have no issue with anyone modding and reposting things I have done. You know, maybe some planes are too tough, too fragile, add stress modelling, how about a 100hp Pup, adding external bombloads (looks better) or le prieurs to other planes, adding extra guns (christian is good at that) or doing them differently, improving/reducing roll climb pitch etc. Putting my ai data in planes for the stock planes for the April patch. Even using the FMs as a base for their own models. ....... Its endless. No probs at all, actually I encourage it, and encourage you to post as well - if its an improvement or people like it, well people will download and use it. Just a couple of things: If its based on my work, please mention that, you do not need to get my permission tho at any time. Tks work, and my mods of TKs work, just go right ahead....Camels etc. Bortdafarm stated quite clearly that anybody can mod his work, and post. I extend that to my FMs of his models. For others, you just need to get the original modellers approval. Its simple, and not one has said no to me, ever, they won't say no to you, either. They would like to see their work used, maybe improved too. So, yep, its a bit lonely being the only person doing FMs, and tho its not easy, making mods to existing work is not that hard, its the best way to start if your so inclined. So if you have made improvements, why post on the forum or keep to yourself?? Put it up as a download.

Okay. Each plane is different, and climb is one of those things that you have to get pretty right to start with in a FM, everything is effected by changes here, as climb variables effect everything. But you know if its necessary to tweak climb a bit down the track, and often is, I do this in 2 ways to minimise side effects, I'll use my Se5a FM as example. First, in Fuselage section: CD0=0.0087 (drag) . . . CD0MachTableData=1.637,1.119,1.000,0.945 (drag table over speed, first goes from 0mph to about 70mph at second value as linear slope) REDUCE 1.637 to say 1.337 and once speed reduces on climb to less than 70 mph, drag is less (multiplies cd0 number). In this case CD0=0.0087 is a small number, not much effect so pretty useless, but cd0 is often high, and its in all wing sections, and reducing this will improve its ability to continue climbing at slower speeds. Don't touch the second or third numbers has effects on top speed, other things. No side effects really. Second in each wing section plus stabs and fuselage, but as an example in one section, bottom wings: CDL=0.0010 (drag on AoA) . . . CDLAlphaTableData=6.737,4.606,2.879,1.555,0.636,0.121,0.010,0.303,1.000,2.101,3.606,5.515,7.827,10.544,13.665 last table is drag on AoA from -28 to plus 28 degree in increments of 4 degreees AoA in that order, and multiplies the cdl figure. To maintain speed as you zoom at say angles greater than 20 degrees, reduce last 3 numbers. Makes quite a difference, depending on the value of cdl which varies in different wing sections. Example CDLAlphaTableData=6.737,4.606,2.879,1.555,0.636,0.121,0.010,0.303,1.000,2.101,3.606,5.515,6.827,7.544,8.665 and if applied to several wing sections would make a large difference, eg bottom wing set is applicable in this example. Side effect is that it will turn better too - drag is there on turn, its positive AoA. Can be offset by reducing CLiftdc= in elevator sections by say 10% at a guess, if you want. Don't change other numbers in the table, plane starts feeling a lot different, especially if changes are around the 0 degree AoA (half way in table). Its doable and sometimes better, but its tricky. Its impossible for me to tell exactly the result or consequences, but thats what I would do, and have done very similar things.

LOL, I meant the AI. Which plane, which FM? What you are trying to do is improve the climb, or apects of it, many things effect the climb, some more than most depending on the FM. Its easier for me if you tell me which one ... the Se5a? Whose FM? BTW, almost any change affects the feel or performance in some way.

BTW, you mentioned that the AI fly like the player. I don't think thats the case, and in fact, I think the AI largely determine how you fly. And example is the "old under and up" trick, works well on many AI (worked all the time on pre-EP game), doesn't work at all for many now. ...but maybe because I only fly against modded AI, stock may be different, you could be right.

Yes improvements to the FM especially come at a cost, in terms of needing to redo things. It can be a huge job, and guess thats the case for the WW2 mods (less for Jet stuff). TK should probably leave improvements to the Flight Model area alone, its far better than many games in this regard anyway, maybe concentrate on other things? TK knows it all...of course! Its hard to describe the awe I have for the work he has done. The new FM and stalls in FE and WOI, tho not appreciably different to previous versions, still would have taken so much talent and time to get right, its hard to describe. He must have been working on it here and there for a couple of years, and must also have very sophisticated development and testing tools. But I know that he has only just started, it could be better, but you know, thats a concern to me...more changes!!! You are right re info being easily available, and clear, and that wouldn't be too hard to do. The problem is that its not enough by any stretch of the imagination. Like I said most things don't work....everything effects everything else (theres thousands of numbers in a FM, my view is that almost each and every number makes a difference!), you can't help people generally with FMs unless you look at the FMs done by them...no-one would want that. Not TK either. Its like painting, you can't really learn until you do it. Was wondering where you dissappeared to? WW2, eh? And with the WW2 stuff, I guess people that know how to do FMs won't have anymore trouble redoing them then I did for FE. Its just, well...its the time. Its not lack of knowledge. The AI side is maybe different, it was introduced big time in the original FE , I have a big head start there, but again, those that do FMs will learn like I did, or look at what I did, and good dogfighting AI is probably jut as important for ww2 as ww1. And before anyone asks, no, not going to write something down on the AI. Its all testing and patience, and its best done by someone that does the FM. If someone asks a specific question, and I know the answer, I'll respond.

"Peter do you have any notes that you could share on FM creation?I may like to take a stab one day but I fear i'm a little to impatient and "slow" but who knows,maybe I'll try someday." Have several notebooks worth of notes scribbled, but I can hardly understand them myself anymore. Certainly felt the lack of that when I started, it seemed it was all like "Secret FM'ers Business". The reality is different though....its probably impossible. I doubt there is anyone doing FMs for this series of games that isn't still learning, improving. You can do anything, you have complete control, but 99% doesn't work, or work well. Its not like a template design, as in many other moddable games. In these you are limited in what you can do, but then again, its not hard to get things going reasonably well either. Actually in many ways its very easy, eg did a couple for OFF, they are no better or worse than those available (tho not tested extensively) - it was a leisurely afternoons work. Not that that its hard to get a plane to fly in FE, I think my first (and a real buzz too) took only a few hours after some research on the meanings of the various parameters etc. But many hundreds of hours later (if not thousands), each and every plane is still a struggle in one way or another. In this game, the templates are FMs done by others. You learn by modding those initially. And thats why I stated people can use mine. Modding those, improving them, may only be a matter of hours if you have the interest and some knowledge. That knowledge is around, in the various forums, and the things like StrikeFightersEditingInfo manual done by Charles. But a couple of things. If doing FMs for FE now, decide which version, they are all different. And be prepared to test extensively by flying at low altitude, high altitude, dogfighting, takeoffs etc, all these are different, all require checking, all the time. Patience is a prerequiste :).

Preparing a Readme, and thought this may be worth posting - who reads Readmes? Again, I recommend you just install this on a clean install as is, try it out, and then either delete or move mods you have made to either change, or add to the game. And this is so you know why it may be different, as its probably different to what you are used to, and what to do to change it. There's usually copies provided of the files I use as default, any variations, as well as stock, all clearly named. A number of files have been modded so it all works (I hope), to enhance gameplay, or provide options, in addition to FMs and campaign files. Note: The Viewlist.ini and Aircraftobject.ini files will only work for the Oct 2007 EP version of the game. 1) Several files needed for Le Prieur and the Spad 37mm cannon from P10ppy to work. There should be no need to delete or mod these files, but they include changes to Soundlist.ini, extra gun reload sound file and effects file for 37mm gun, various .bmp and .lod files in WEAPONS folder for Le Prieurs. 2) Weapondata.ini and weapondata.dat in OBJECTS/ WEAPONS folder They work as a pair. So if you want to delete, delete both. If you want to change, change both. Changed for 37mm canon, Le Prieur Rockets, Rockets (eg Dolphin), some other loadouts for planes. 3) Gundata.ini and gundata.dat in OBJECTS folder They work as a pair. So if you want to delete, delete both. If you want to change, change both. Default with install is ammo weight 65%. Theres one (a pair!) that has 70% - the 5% makes a difference. Theres the stock one, 100%. 4) Aircraftobject.ini in OBJECTS folder Several files: stock, hard, very hard, explained in the AI thread. Default is the Hard one. Changes the skill level settings of Novice thru to Ace. Also adds some headshake. Minor amount, taken from WOI, works well in FE. 5) Ground Object files in OBJECTS/ GROUNDOBJECT folder Balloons tougher. Tanks available earlier for campaigns. 6) Squadronlist.ini and Missioncontrol.ini in FLIGHT folder Squadronlist.ini needed for squadrons in campaigns, and is based on Charles comprehensive list of squadrons for his campaigns, so should work with his campaigns too. As he also included stock entries, the stock campaigns should be fine. Missioncontrol.ini changed with TakeOffTime=10 instead of 0, to delay the AI taking off. They are too quick generally for the player, especially earlier planes. 7) Viewlist.ini in FLIGHT folder Several options, including original stock. Default VIEWLIST that is used is modded to include an Extended Flyby thanks to V. Deutschmark, a "Check Six" view (using F5 Shoulder View key), changes to the External View - no longer zooms as you cycle, and stays in last position set. There is also an alternative Viewlist that has wider default view angles - if you find the default ones are somewhat claustrophobic. I prefer this. It includes all above too. 8) RotaryEngine in SOUND folder This is just a renamed stock engine sound. The planes still use RotaryEngine, and if you have or prefer the A-Teams, copy that over to this folder and overwrite this one. Basically I included this so that its a simple Plug 'n Play, LOL, nothings simple in a game so easily modded.

Included in download with FMs are 5 campaigns. Done initially just to use add-on aircraft, using TKs Cambrai campaign as a base, I started improving and changing them over a couple of months. But they are based on Tks work, and as I just wanted to get as many add-on planes into campaigns as possible, there not done say with the detail perhaps of Charles or Firecages work. But have made considerable changes to make them enjoyable - types of missions, difficulty, known aces, staggering arrival of squadrons, quite a few things. They are not entirely historical :), of course. Tanks arrived early on the Western front, there is a scarcity of ground targets. Aces are included, but not necessarily in their correct squadrons or time. But some are. Squadron numbers of course are not completely accurate, Jasta 11 starts in march 1916 etc. AFC wasn't formed until 1918...but you get the picture. They are not entirely complete...some text I was going to add to set the scene isn't compplete, you'll know what I mean. Basically the campaigns cover the air war from 1916 to 1918, with 60 different squadrons, and about 40-50 different flyable planes. campaigns are generally about 18 missions long, over about 30 to 40 days. You generally don't get upgrades, the plane you start in you normally finish with as well. But, want to fly the Bristol M1c in a campaign? Its there. I won't list which ones - just too many. Difficulty varies considerably even within the one campaign. For example it depends on the plane you fly, the side you choose (Germans are often a lil' easier, they do more missions over their own lines), your main opposition (varies with different bases, some opposition is quite tough), the quality of your squadron, the missions that plane or squadron does. Sometimes you will have trouble surviving the first mission, or your squadron will get decimated. Sometimes you and your squadron rule the skies (but still with tough opposition). The missions cover all types, but with a strong bias to fighter operations. Some planes, generally those historically in that role, will do more army coop, armed recon, strikes . These missions work, but you will need to manually do loadouts. The game doesn't do it for some reason. Other planes do more balloon busting (those with Le Prieurs, balloons have been toughened, you need them). I've been playing these for over a month, and well, they are a blast. Probably partly because of the above, partly because you can easily start and continue several campaigns with different planes simultaneously, and partly (a large part IMO) because of the AI. More on the AI later, and how to easily tailor it to your liking, BUT this time round, the AI have been optimised to maximise the campaign experience. Have developed some liking for doing campaigns, may do others in the future. I'm surprised now that there aren't many more done by the community. They are developed for Oct 2007 EP version. It will be a different experience in the April 2008 version. It will not work well if you mix stock fms with those in this download at all - the ai are completely different, you will get some very funny results.

Good mate. Yeah, haven't been really specific, have I? Done FMs for most, but the exceptions are: Avro 504c (did Avro 504d) PfalzEv (maybe later, all other early single seater Pfalz's done) MoraneLO, nor Pfalz E3 2-seaters (did MSTypeLAO) Fokker E2 and E2a (all E1s, E3s, E4s done) Farmans (later, keen on doing these) Borts Alb D2s and D1 (later too, but theres a AlbD2 based on TKs Alb D3 model at this stage) Pfalz Dr1 Be-2a (Be-2c, Be-2d done) No multi engine bombers, but most work well enough as AI I think everything else is done. Newer ones are Bristol Mc1, Martinsyde S1, also p10ppy's Spad 12 is included (his FM, just ai changes). Extras are Nieuport17bis, Nieuport23, AlbatrosD2, AlbatrosD3_160, AlbatrosD3OEF_200, Fe2c. These are exact names if your preparing things. Hope that helps. New to campaign, so no don't know about the ground war thing. I'd agree that this would be a huge improvement. EDIT: Got the Morane/Pfalz early 2-seaters mixed up, reads correctly now.

Have gotten the EP finally to the point where I am no longer making mods to FMs, AI, and a myriad of other things. Its good, maybe as good as it gets. Its for the Unpatched EP Version (Oct 2007), and yes I know, there are some improvements in patch (very minor IMO), just not enough for me to redo stuff. It would take many months, and things/FMs will continue to change with new patches. Its been a long haul, 8 months. And its finished, so its not exactly WIP, but that'll do for a topic title lol. FE just excels in the dogfight experience, its just a blast. Many other things of course that can be improved in the game, but whether TK does this in any major way is unlikely - sounds, campaigns, the usual gripes. And the big thing of course is all the great planes that have been done by our talented modders. Anyway thought I'd post in seperate threads what I have done before uploading in a couple of weeks - cleanups, testing installs, doing readmes take time. There's a fair bit I want to say, so I'll start new threads covering particular aspects over the next week or two. And its somewhat complex too. Feel free to comment.

Yes. Maybe someone should ask him :) ? It did seem at one time that many RB3D developers were interested in FE, but the initial version was so lite, in every way, perhaps targeted for short term sales rather than long term interest. Things have changed enormously, we have learnt a lot, its eminently moddable...but, you know....first impressions. Its a pity, FE coulda been the one...with more interest, support and then sales. Its now got many of the really difficult basics right, things that most games don't get right - TK has made major improvements in the EP. But sounds like wind sounds, engine gravity effects, full range of rotary sound effects for example make a big difference, so easy to do, every game has them, but not this one. Campaign improvements (even a "Go to next waypoint" command), balloon damage, ground objects...easy I'd say. Even for a one man show. Maybe it still can be? Not complaining, I'm pretty happy with it myself, but, can't help thinking what was possible...

We all have them in the game, and I had one last night. I was into about mission 6 of a campaign flying a Morane N doing a recon over the trenches with one one wingmen, when we were pounced by 2 Fokker E3as. I had come across this particular squadron before, knew they were tough, so adrenilin levels started to rise. Also remembered that my wingmen was a rookie, it was meant to be a training flight. He scampered pretty quick, probably the best thing too...he may have been green, but he wasn't thick! Anyway with some difficulty shot down one Fok.E3a, but the second was a real handful. I was in trouble, and thinking another EA would join in too, they tend to do this. Then all of a sudden this white Nieuport 11, just dropped gacefully from the skies from nowhere, positioning itself beautifully directly behind the E3a in which I was in a fierce turning fight, slowed down and steadied itself, fired for about 2 secs, and sent the E3a down as a flamer. It was all over in 4-5 seconds. It jiggled around a bit, looking pleased with itself, the pilot looked at me (as they do in FE), seemed to wink, banked gently and flew off. Its funny, these sorts of moments are just so memorable, so immersive, somehow better than 100 dogfights.

Very neat. Thanks for posting. wwiPilotNewF4 is now my default French pilot. Great improvement. Luv that mo! Cheers

can't understand how the ai can be the same if the FMs are different, and with extra planes say in WFSP, what do the ai use? the ai must fly the fms designed for the game i like all the work done by that great bunch on RBD3, and forever grateful for several years of my best time with flight sims. you can use the same FMs for HASP and WFSP, but i prefer not to, because again, the ai are different. so fms for WFSP are greybeards, hasp, don't know but different, tried GBs for hasp, but don't use them maybe because i use them for WFSP. maybe they are his, but they are then earlier, different i played around endlessly with ai setting, and I agree lower is often better. but its a compromise or balance, because its one setting for all the ai. having said all that, RB3D is still great. Its just which version of what (including FMs), what is the best ai setting for different ones....and in the end each has its own strengths and weaknesses. and FE is rapidly becoming like that too

just re-read your post and question Bandy, and didn't answer it...of course :) but its a good question, deserves a more direct response, I'll give you an example take the spad 13. take a default set of parametrs (skill, flight control, aidata, fm stuff). it will try, as you corectly point out, to get on your tail. it will be a turn fighter, and only an average one at that. it shouldn't be a turn fighter, and it should be capable so, what to do.... you reduce pitch ability...it can't turn as well, so less likely to try to outturn you you increase its ability to speed up, increase its preferred dogfighting speeds, you decrease its ability to slow down. all this means it will zoom around fast, and stay fast you improve its ability to climb. you encourage it to use climb you make it react quicker, partly so it is harder to get a bead on, partly so it recovers from situations quicker, decides what to do quicker, defensive or aggressive you improve only its roll and rudder ability for a gun attack. You increase its aggressiveness. the overall result is that when given a chance, usually after its outclimbed you or extended away, it will attack very aggressively and quickly from the front side or on your tail, and if you dodge it will zoom past and then extend or climb again maybe dive and try again. sounds complex, but its not, just a matter of getting all the settings right, and there are a couple of other things too an interesting point about the spad13 as ai (true also of Se5a), versus dr1 (best dogfighter), is that a player in the dr1 has some difficulty in dealing with these planes as ai (firecage won't like that :)). the dr1 can say beat the better ai dogfighter like camel etc, but has a comparatively harder time with the ZnB'ers, mainly because its slower. spad13 etc can zoom in and out at will. but an alb d5 that will usually get easily beaten by a good camel ai, can put up just nearly as good show against the spad13 as against the camel. not sure, but this sounds okay, it was unexpected though now its not perfect, its not how i fly the spad 13. I fly in the vertical only until attacking, you know up and down, up and down etc. can't get the ai to do that...

Thanks guys. Just a (another!) quick one on the new FMs. Had a few weeks break from FE, and then one day out of the blue I just started thinking about some problems I had with the FMs, and I came up with some ideas. Very lateral thinking. About 6 or 8 ideas that came very quickly. A few days later tried them, they all worked very well, some better than others, some more suitable to some FMs then others, but overall definetly an improvement. I was very pleased. Basically it started with the thought that tweaking and tweaking no longer improved the FMs...they were as tweaked as they could be. And tweaking was very time consuming.... had to look at it differently. The ideas were lateral in the sense that I understood why I had problems with some that I just couldn't get right before that never occurred to me (eg same prob for F2B and Dolphin), started doing a couple of things lots differently (not done by TK) that resulted in more motion for rotary powered planes (their engines vibrated they shouldn't be too stable), that also made different planes slightly different to one another (always a challenge) and actually nicer to fly to me as well. And I remembered, for some odd reason, something TK posted months ago that made me retry something, and it worked very well for a couple of FMs (that TK doesn't use in FE, for some reason). Just shows you what a break can do. Anyway, in about a week or two I had a greatly improved set of FMs. Now, don't want to get expectations up, probably nobody will notice, but many/most are better then before. Man, thats a difficult question. Its probably better I post on this in the AI thread I'm starting, its the next one :), so fire away there, but in general sense, there are many levers - skill levels, aidata, flightcontrol, and in the FM body itself, that on their own, or combined, change their behavior. Its pretty amazing what you can do, but you know, the ai is hard coded, so the ai will be the ai to a certain extent.... I have been improving the AI, and its a big improvement. In the end I had to redo the ai, and water them down, they were just too good - see next thread. I saw that they were better in the April patch, but no ai parameters had changed, so then experimented and found why. Its hard coded in the April patch, but by varying a couple of parameters you get the same result in the Oct version. This experimentation also uncovered a couple of other gems, and you know, the AI are now at least a level or two better then before. An AI ace flying the same plane as you (for test purposes) is about as good as you, ie, a "true" ai ace, maybe not a MvR etc but.... The changes don't improve the ai's ability to turn or roll etc, this is easy to do, but it starts to get unrealistic and this is a problem for some I'd guess, but its simply because the FMs are a bit supercharged for the player as well - nothing can be done about this, thats the new Flight Model. I like it. No, these improvements relate to flying smarter, using throttle better, using climb better, especially reacting quicker, extending then coming back to attack (Spad 13 and Se5a do this very well), reducing dive, AND in some cases teamwork in a squadron (lol, a first, I reckon)!

Ok, last post on the FMs. Its a long one...... Naturally these are for hard FM, hard everything. There are a couple of things you can do to make it harder or less hard, mainly relating to the AI...in the next thread. Its for the Oct 2007 EP, not patched. The patch reduced roll resistance (in the code, not the FMs) hence improved roll considerably, also meaning pitch is better (they are indirectly related). Result is that a Oct EP FM will roll far quicker, turn better when used in the patched EP game, but whats worse is that it will be very flakey in pitch, and for people like me with FFB sticks, cause major issues (they are sensitive FMs). Its not easy modding the FMs done for the Unpatched EP to work in Patched one - actually requires changes that make the plane quite diffferent in feel and performance, and roll is just quicker, whatever you do. Is that a problem for using them for the patched game? No, as they will work, but as AI will be better, and won't mix with stock planes performance wise or as AI. But more importantly, apart from maybe causing issues, being flakey (ie, not so nice to fly), they aren't as they were designed......See below, its a poor attempt to explain how they are designed to work, the effort put in to make them work to that design.... But firstly, if you downloaded the previous bunch of FMs, nearly all these are different, in minor and/or major ways. Certainly better. I'd say 90% are probably as good as they can be, the other 10% vary but generally good enough, mainly planes that wouldn't be as popular to fly. I might improve them later tho unlikely, this is probably the last attempt. So if you are inclined to mod, your reasonably safe to do so - and I haven't said that before. Just a couple of examples of changes, but its across the board: Alb D3/5s, Nieuport 28, Snipe modded partly for feel, mainly for vertical performance. All Nieuports changed, some considerably. The Nieuports 24, 27 are minor, but all are different, and at times I think some of these are my favourites. Dolphin, Bristol F2b completely redone. Loads better. Most mid-late 1916 planes are vastly improved, or redone. There not perfect, a couple wont takeoff (but fixed N11 and Fe2b in this regard), no stress modelling, but pretty good. Finally..... performance consistency/improvement. This is just something I want to say, simply because it took some work, and I'm proud of it. Partly explaining the design. I guess it is taken for a fact that one plane is a better performer than another, but when you have 70 to 80 planes getting these performance differences and improvements is not easy, and I seriously doubt its been done on this scale or as carefully before, even RB3D WFSP. Certainly not when you take the ai side into account. You have to test each plane extensively against various other planes, mod the FM, retest, and so on. 80 FMs tested each against maybe 3 or 4 opponents then tweaking, retesting arrrgg...and to start you have base FMs that work as designed as AI to test them against. Example: the Morane L takes over 10mins to get to 3000ft for me (its hard climbing, it was hard to do as a FM as well!), Camel, 2 min 30secs to same height. These numbers are pretty close to generally acknowledged real figures. Not implying performance is correct, its not for many planes for various reasons, and in terms of roll and turn who really knows for certain, just saying that over time planes improve, and climb can be one of those improvements. Another example: fly the Morane N against say a Fokker D3 Ace AI, and you generally won't win (if you use the very hard skill settings - see next thread on AI). Fly an Dh2, and its a very even dogfight that often goes for 5-10 mins. Fly a Pup, and you win easily....and so it goes for all planes against one another, over time....generally those planes you expect to be better, are better. Thats the player side. Of course thats only half the story - there's the AI. So in above example if you are flying a Fokker D3 and you fight against a Morane N Ace AI, you should win easily. A Dh2, should be even, a Pup, and you should get done. This doesn't just happen on its own because the Pup is better for the player than the Dh2, which in turn is better than the Morane N. It takes some real tuning/testing of the AI to maximise the positive and different performance characteristics of each plane to get right, because the AI fly differently to the player. EG, you do the AI on a good ZnB'er completely differently to a good TnB'er, an early plane differently to a later plane etc. More on this in the next thread on AI. Is all this interesting or important? Well, it is to me. Maybe I'm weird, but thats how I thought it should be many years ago, but never really found it. Maybe Il2 is close as its been. And its only possible in FE because you have that really micro level control of the FM (not in RB3D or OFF), because TK has given us very good AI, and because you can tailor each plane's AI individually (not possible in OFF or RB3D either). That last one is unique and is a huge factor. And its a difference between TKs AI and mine - TK takes a one size fits all approach for the AI, while mine are carefully tailored and tuned for each plane. I probably have more time to do this than TK, certainly more inclination. Don't ask how long just the performance/ai tuning side of the FMs took for 80 planes, I really don't want to think about it lol, but pleased?... yep.... Does that explain why they won't work as designed in patched EP, apart from obvious feel and performance, and why if you mix them with stock FMs (as you would in patched FE) it doesn't work the same way?

LOL, a bit of time (gee, its a relief to have finished it all), so a bit more about installation. I strongly recommend you do an seperate and clean install. Know many of you have made all sorts of mods, but trust me, this will be enough to start and you can then decide what to add or mod. Its meant to be simple and quick and complete, as long as you have all the add-on planes ready. 1) Install a clean and seperate version of the original FE (no need to apply patches), call it something like "WW1 Oct EP" etc. 2) Apply the Oct 2007 Expansion Pack only to this new install. 3) Move your joystick settings from a previous EP Unpatched version of the game from the CONTROLS folder to your new folder so that you don't need to customise. Don't do this from a patched EP version. 4) Add the add-on plane package folders to the AIRCRAFT folder. You do not need to do a full installation of weaponsdata, sounds etc, its all in my download. The biggest problems here are the size of a copied AIRCRAFT folder if you have a lot of skins. If space is tight you may want to delete skins you don't use, they are very large. 5) Copy extra planes folders and rename - see above re extra nieuports etc, its in the Readme file. 5) Install the download into your new FE game directory, confirming ok to overwrite when prompted. To make it easier I have standardised all the FMs in terms of various things. Examples include using EP pilots exclusively (repositioned some in cockpits using the newer and bigger EP pilots as well), stallsounds, engine sounds - stock engine sound is used as rotaryengine sound, in the download again, if you have and want to use the A-teams this is one file you could add to the install, but only after the download is installed. All the planes have strengthened stabilisers, they were too easy to shoot off, and some have increased general/specific structural strength too, can't remember exactly but early Nieuports come to mind. Thanks to p10ppy for his Le Prieur Rockets, and p10ppy and Tailspin and Christian59 for attachment postions, all the Spad7s, Nieuports, Pup, Camels etc have working Le Prieurs, with all the different things needed to make them work in the game. Many planes now have external bombs too. All the loadouts should work (new weaponsdata files in the download too). The stock AI only planes DFWC5, Re8, Salmson, Spad7 150, Spad 7 180 are flyable, with cockpit files included. You do not ned to do anything, except, well, fly. if you have done them better than me, highly likely, well you can add them after install easily enough. Theres quite a few other things, but maybe in another post.

Thanks, sure you will enjoy it :). You know, it took about 9 months for me to get the FMs working for the original FE (mainly due to fixing the atrocious AI), and now 8 months for the Oct EP (tricky bit here is the FMs are very sensitive). And thats not dabbling, I spend almost as much time on this as on work. I had decided not to do anything more a couple of months ago when the FMs changed in the April patch, but a couple of things changed my mind. Mainly relating to playing RB3D. I reinstalled RB3D, and all the major super patches. Its still a great game, and runs very well on my computer with newer glide emulation packages. Had loads of fun. But I have 4 different installs of this game - its a small footprint and fires up quick, so no issue. But if I want to fly loads of planes, its WFSP - but Fms and AI are only passable. Some interesting german ones, ROTJ, but AI and FMs are variable. Good AI (but not so good FMs IMO), original HASP. Good balance in FMs and AI but fewer planes is FCJ. Yes I know you can adjust ai levels, but its a blanket type approach, some planes are worse as you increase the AI setting. So its all about choices and compromises, balancing the quality/number of the planes, the quality of ai/ fms to me, maybe bugs/minor improvements as well. It also occurred to me that TK probably has always changed the flight model with every patch (lol can't seem to help himself in this regard). Its just that for jet planes, the changes probably usually are't that noticeable, they are nowhere near as sensitive as the FE FMs. So it'll continue. And I wanted to get at least one game and version where ai and fms and have loads of planes work for me - hence, came back to the Unpatched FE. And I'm glad I did, FE EP is very good now to me, lots of fine tuning/redoing on FMs AI campaigns. BTW, don't want to be critical of OFF, but personally can't play that one. The developers are dedicated, talented, enthusiastic WW1 simmers (unlike TK unfortunately, wrt WW1 enthusiasm) but the FMs and the AI don't work well at all, major step backwards even from RB3D. Its the CFS3 engine thingy - I tried doing a couple of FMs to see if I could improve things, but couldn't. Maybe phase 3? I'll buy it, I'm a WW1 buff, but I'm not optimistic....it will have all the great extras, but ai, fms, bugs and I'll need to buy a new puter? All the above is JMO of course.

Thanks re FMs, have improved them, and will be posting on this shortly. Thats interesting about patch not installing. I do many installs, reinstalls etc, never had that problem. Are you sure its not installed? On the Main Screen, Bottom Right Hand corner it will state either "Oct 2007" or "Apr 2008".

Nah mate, haven't retired. Getting back into FE, and doing a few things. But not for the April 08 Patch. No point. Its an interim version and the next one, maybe soon, could mean changes to the FMs again. Its almost a certainty. Thanks for the campaigns, I'll be sure to try them out.

I'm finishing off the FMs I'm working on, maybe a week or so to go, but would like to say some things. Rather than boring you all with one long post, I thought I'd bore you all with several shorter posts between now and when they are ready, then collate it for the readme . Feel free to comment, or whatever. First point... have I mentioned that the EP FMs are very sensitive . Well, they are, and it can be a problem in the game. Now I try to eliminate this, but it doesn't always happen and its sometimes hard to find. It may also relate to joystick settings and particular joysticks. What happens is the plane you are flying can feel "funny", to use the correct technical term. Changing to another plane, finishing the mission, or even restarting the game won't solve the problem. You have to restart the PC. I suspect its probably a problem more for Force Feedback Joysticks. I have one, and its less of a problem if you set Force Feedback levels to low. Actually its better on Low for the EP, planes are too tight when set to High. It was a minor problem in the pre-EP, but can be worse in EP and harder to recover without restarting your PC. It doesn't seem to be effected by in-game joystick slider settings. You'll know if it happens. Let me know, I'll try to fix it, if it seems to be happening for a particular plane(s). If you mod the pitch or ailerons especially (and most other things too) as I'm sure many of you did for pre-EP, I can guarantee it will happen. TK has put some "buffer" in his, so they are somewhat more robust than mine, but with some compromises. I guess he knows people will mod his FMs, and/or he's built them for for different joysticks/settings. This time around, its not the AI that overly sensitive, its the actual FM.