peter01

Thanks for posts guys. Been reflecting on the patch over the past couple of weeks. Its a bit of work redoing the previous FMs, and don't feel the patch changes are an improvement to the FE FMs. More than likely there will be similar changes down the track for WOI (IMO) that again impact FE FMs - even minor changes have major effects on FE. If you are looking at it from a FE FM POV, as I do of course, its a bit like the tail wagging the dog, and I'll be spending a lot of time re-tweaking FMs just to keep things working ok . So, drawing a line in the sand, so to speak, and I'll be sticking to the unpatched version.

LOL....thought this one was too tough! The one posted here is the same as AircraftObject_Hard in 1917-18 Upload. If you want to make it even tougher, copy the Regular skill level stuff to the Novice and Green. Furballs are extremely tough then. To improve say Aces and Veterans, change parameter DefensiveAngle= from 120 I think, to say 60 for Aces, maybe 90 for Vets. If you just want it hard, but without much variety in skill level, make Vets Aces,and make Regulars/Novices/Green Vets by copying and pasting. The rest of it is in the FMs themselves. Cheers

Sorta started on tweaking the planes for the patch, and would like to know what you think is the best way to go forward. But first, some background. I'm not that committed to doing these FMs, I'm playing the game more (unpatched) and doing FMs less, just a bit sick of it at the moment. So, as the mood takes me, I might just do some tweaking here and there. The changes are more significant then I mentioned previously, all require non-trivial changes, and some planes are far harder to do. So unlike what I usually do, work on a set, its more pick and choose, some early, some late etc. Jumping between patched EP and unpatched EP, IMO, the FMs I did for the unpatched EP work very well in the unpatched EP, as good as they can be in many ways. The tweaks I'm making to the FMs for the patch means they are just a bit different. A comparison of the two IMO in comparing previous FMs on unpatched FMs to tweaked FMs for patched EP (sheeesh, sorrry about that): some are better now, some aren't, but its all very marginal. BUT the FMs tweaked for the patched version are far better then the previous FMs if used for the patched EP. However, you know, its this endless tweak scenario ....admittedly easier, because of TKs changes - they are less sensitive, the change was good in the end :), and because I know what I'm doing pretty well now too. Mmm, hard to explain, so what I am saying is....how should I make these available. Options.. 1) Make available in smaller sets here on this thread....saves me doing readmes etc, I can get feedback, they are available quicker. The previous ones still work, and no problems in AI, so its like an incremental improvement over time. And its basically mainly for the community that does play the game a lot, visits the forum... most of you guys I guess. And later collate into sets in d/ls section for more general community. 2) Make them available say as beta in downloads section. Tweak any necessary, and collate them later into sets. Similar to 1) in terms of I can get feedback, they are available quicker. The previous ones still work, and no problems in AI, so its like an incremental improvement over time. This option maybe better for people that haven't downloaded the previous ones that I have now deleted....and maybe I should make these available then in the interim, despite my "artistic" concern that they don't work as they were designed... 3) Wait till they are ready, ie, completed sets (similar to previous packs, basically two d/ls), and I feel I have done enough to not call them beta. This may be a few weeks, but could be a few months because some FMs are just a pain. If I do this, I won't make the others done previously avaialble...those that didn't get them will just have to wait. Let me know.....appreciate your thoughts on this.

Your welcome. How do you mean? Is there something wrong?

my first try at a poll on this site, hope it works :)

There you go...place in your "objects" directory, for both April patches of FE (pre-EP and EP). AIRCRAFTOBJECT.zip

Some spare time, so a 101 on some key skill level parameters in the Aircraftobject.ini, if you are inclined to change/try out things to suit yourself. WARNINGS: The skill level stuff doesn't work independently of ai data in the FMs, so you can't completely change the ai behavior of the plane unless you mod that too - I don't recommend you do that unless you test extensively. Do not mod the {aidata] section in the Aircraftobject.ini under ANY circumstances - Big Problems. This is overrridden by whats in the FMs themselves, and where these are not present, its for good reason, the generic ones work well, eg most of TKs. Finally, if you try out changes like below, and at some time in the future, some planes (not all necessairly), the AI are funny/out of control either in dogfighting or in formation, delete your changes. The changes you have made are probably the cause of AI problems - most of the AI are fine now. Don't blame the game, don't blame me. All the parameters will effect the AI, but some of the major ones are (from Ace skill level in the default Aircraftobject.ini that came with the game), and remember that capability and aggressiveness are different: DefensiveAngle=120 MaxRollForGunAttack=180 MaxPitchInput=1.0 MaxRudderForGunAttack=1.0 MaxRudderForManeuver=1.0 Most important from a capability perspective is MaxPitchInput=, max value is 1.0. Its how much the pitch values in the FM and aidata section of the FMs are used by the AI. If you find AI planes turn too tightly, too manoeuvrable, too capable - ie, too difficult - then reduce for all skill levels. Values higher than 1.0 do not work, its reduced to 1.0. Secondary from a capability perspective are the MaxRudderForGunAttack= and MaxRudderForManeuver= parameters. I use 3.0 for MaxRudderForGunAttack= and it works, but it would be limited to some value, TK always does this, its good programming practise. The first is how much rudder the AI will use WHEN it starts a gun attack (ie, lines you up and decides to attack, or is shooting at you), the second is rudder generally for both defensive actions (sideslipping), and offensive how quickly it comes around (eg, using rudder together with roll will mean it turns quicker). The AI uses rudder very effectively now since EP, so these are important, but not as important still as MaxPitchInput=. If you were making AI harder or easier, I'd vary these a bit, but not much. Lastly, are MaxRollForGunAttack=, and DefensiveAngle=. They sort of work together, and are the MOST important from an aggressiveness perspective. MaxRollForGunAttack= measured from the front of plane basically "says", if an enemy is within this arc, undertake aggressive actions. Now, if you make this 360, as I do, it means, that say in 1:1 (1:1s are a good way to see how an AI performs, in a pure form, and its how they will be in furballs too), the AI will continually be trying to attack you, rather than being defensive. If you set it at 90, it will be mainly defensive. DefensiveAngle= works somewhat with MaxRollForGunAttack=. It tells the AI if an EA is within that arc (measured from rear), then take defensive action. It seems to mostly take precedence over MaxRollForGunAttack=, ie, if you are say at rear of AI, it will do defensive maeouvers like sideslip turn dive climb, until it has you in the MaxRollForGunAttack defined arc, then it attacks. The AI is far better if it attacks more. I have tried reducing DefensiveAngle= to 30, but thats a problem. You can be on its tail, and it does nothing, even tho MaxRollForGunAttack= is 360, it should be attacking. Optimal seems 60, they are pretty tough then. What happens is they jig about when you are on their tail, until you are out of their 60 degree angle (which is easily done), and then turn around because of the MaxRollForGunAttack=360 angle and attack. My conclusion is that MaxRollForGunAttack=360 isn't actually 360, maybe less, or more logically, there is a range of around 60 where the defensive action takes precedence over aggressive. All guessing of course. Increasing MaxRollForGunAttack= over 360 doesn't make any difference ...its probably the limit defined by TK. Cheers

Good idea, it is easy to screw up your game making changes here. I'll post it to this thread here tonight.

Hi Tooner, Really appreciate your post here .....the changes are so slight its so hard to pinpoint, and at times I thought I was imagining it. Yes, there are a couple of changes. Did a fresh install, patched it, installed TKs unpatched Spad7 FM, and again it felt slightly "flaky"- never had the feeling before with that aircraft. And its really only at altitude (above a couple of thousand feet, so important), hence hard to spot unless you fly a bit. And not all planes, depends on how they are done. Looking thru what TK has changed in his FMs, and trying it out, it seems like there is an easy solution. Changing the Altitude tables, and increasing Pitchdamp. Thats what TK has done consistently for all his, and it seems to work with mine. But there's 70 FMs, each will take 30 mins plus to change (as the specific changes needed to Pitchdamp would vary between planes), fly pre-changed first at various alts, and then test low level, various altitudes after changes, tweak as necessary. Tedious. But seems okay. Some planes will be sightly better maybe, some slightly worse, some exactly the same. But the resulting changes are hardly noticeable, even for me, and it does get rid of that lightness and flakiness, so seems okay. Doesn't seem much, but these new style FMs are very very sensitive on pitch and at altitude. I won't rush it...I'll probably upload in a few weeks. The patch has improved the AI in terms of skill, yes, considerably. Not aggressiveness. Aggressiveness is largely determined by the skill level stuff in the Aircraftobject.ini, which hasn't changed. Probably best you use the skill level stuff from my previous one, but make sure you use an newly extracted Aircraftobject.ini. I'll get around to explaining this sometime, the parameters in the Aircraftobject.ini are quite simple, but trouble is I feel the need to put all these warnings and qualifications on it too...because you can really stuff up your game. BTW, I don't think gun damage has changed much. I still use a reduced ammo weight gundata file. Cheers Oh, forgot to mention with AI......if you use TKs FMs, they won't be that good really as AI, nowhere as good as mine. The AI stuff is not just the Aircraftobject.ini, its the [flightcontrol] and [AIdata] sections in the FMs themselves too - they all work together. I do a couple of things differently to the default stuff in the FMs that makes them better, more interesting, and most importantly, so that you don't get a "sitting duck" type scenario - and you do, with TKs, all the time, arrrggg. You can also get different AI planes to do different things by modding all three ai sections, and now that you can include skill level stuff in the FM itself (overrides the Aircraftobject.ini), you can get different skill level AI to fly the same plane somewhat differently too. Its all pretty neat, don't think there is any flight sim that firstly has such good basic AI (for dogfighting), and even better, where you can mod it yourself to make it better/easier/different. FE is an absolute standout in this area.

Well, despite what I thought, TK has made some changes that effect the FMs. Its not very obvious, and it wasn't until I started flying more intensively that it become clearer, and comparing the same flying experience in patched/unpatched versions - what I'm not sure, but certainly different. If the planes are fine for you, then they are fine. But both TKs initial unpatched EP FMs (why he changed them?) and all mine are somewhat lighter at altitude, and for want of a better description, some/all are "flakier" on pitch. Have posted in the Modders Corner section on Thirdwire's site to clarify, see what TK says, if anything. In the meantime, since everyone would be playing the patched version, I've deleted the Expansion Pack FMs downloads. They don't work AFAIC in they way they were designed. I am keen to get them fixed, and it doesn't seem difficult, but we'll see.....

My FMs, and modded AircraftObject.ini - newly extracted, with same skill levels changes I posted previously, pasted over default skill levels. So the only difference to my game is the patch itself. Its pretty tough. I'd say comparing what I'd been playing before, a "Regular" now is nearly as good as an "Ace" previously. Its the underlying AI routines that have changed, and its in how they fly (smarter, use climb better), not their capability to turn roll etc. It was a shock - for example I can hardly beat my FokkerD7F (with Ace AI) in ANY allied plane. Lost nearly every 1:1. And I've been playing this game for over a year, flight sims 10 years, online il2 for 2 years. This is a very good development, cos you can keep Aces very tough (so you really have a challenge now and then), and tone down the rest. AFAIC, you couldn't do this before... I basically played with all AI either Vets or Aces, so that I would always have a decent challenge. But in my mind/imagination, I considered these to be really Regulars and Vets, couldn't bear to think of any AI as "real" Aces (nor in any game I've played), to be truthful :). Not so now....... Rambled a bit, was there a specific reason you asked?

Been flying the patch now a couple of days, must say I'm impressed with the changes TK has done with the AI in dogfighting. Its subtle, but quite an improvement - I spend so much time dogfighting when doing FMs, pretty attuned to the AI and their capability....actually spend a lot of time modifying it too They climb better, in that in a dogfight they will now try to get more of a height advantage for attacking then before. It makes beating good climbers harder. They will also zoom up vertically in an emergency, never saw that in the past 6 mths. Unfortunately did also see one get into that 0 speed situation (that we used to see in the past), and then just died?! But that was only once, and since they use climb/height more aggressively, really pushing it actually, its a minor quibble. Overall, big improvement. The AI also seem to "react" better - either quicker or smarter or both. Its not that are more capable in turn, roll etc, more in how quick they decide to do something, or what they do seems better, more interesting. Hard to describe. They also nose nicely down to effectively pick up speed, and do diving attacks better. Overall, all AI are better, at least a level up in toughness, with most improvements to the ZnB plane AI. Great stuff, nice refinements to already excellent AI. Well done TK.

Okay, no problems.

Hi Tooner, Hmmm, seems okay in my game. Can you post a pic please ... Thanks

lol lol.....good one Firecage But happy to report none of the above...do you have a picture of a young Errol Flynn? My wife said to write that , bless her. If TK makes another major change to the FM, its likely to be the third! Bug-eyed and bald. As it is, not jogging or playing squash so much the past year, certainly looking a bit paler. Cheers mate

mmm, becoming a bit complex. We have the EP game, with and without a patch, and we have the pre-EP game, with and without a new patch to bring it to EP standards (but not quite - extra planes like Camel etc other graphics, maybe other things ). This is for those that patched their pre-EP games to "EP" standard with TW's recent patch. If you use the add-on planes and the FMs I did, then there are some compatability issues, one pointed out to me about no pilots in planes, and another about exhaust smoke. Its because the EP (as against patched pre-EP game) has extra graphics eg, new pilots that TK hasn't made available. So here's the solution, in a zip file below. What I have done is extract the wwwipilot.bmp and wwwipilot.lod files from pre-EP game, and renamed them wwwipilotnew1 thru to wwwipilotnew4 (these are what are used in EP game). Sorry, can't give you the new pilot bmps, that would be making material available that TW have produced for the EP game. I have done a similar thing for the new RotaryExhaust effect - i use the pre-EP inlinexhaust effect but rename it to the rotary one so you get exhaust fumes for the rotary powered planes in the game. There are probably other issues (ain't it fun), if it relates to FMs I'll look at it, and I'll upload a compatability package for the patched pre-EP. Let me know because I'm not going out of my way to find these issues. Help fix, yes, find, no - as I only play the EP game now. Pre_EP_Compatability_Pilots___Rotary_Exhaust.zip Put the pilots in your "Aircraft" folder, put the exhaust effect in your "Effects" folder .

Sorry should have mentined don't install the AlbD3 FM if you have TKs model (this one has the same plane name, the rest are different), these are for the A-teams planes. Or rename it.

Well, now the patches are out, we are one big happy family again, right? Can put this pre-EP versus EP stuff behind us...well, nearly. In that spirit, and cos I like consistency (it'll be the death of me!), and want everyone to enjoy the game, I have made available some FMs I did for the A-Teams Camel, Spad7, AlbatrosD3, and Dr1 to bring them up to EP FM standards/compatability. Now, i like these planes, and the skins, and use them in the EP game as well as TKs, but I'm uploading mainly for those that don't have the add-on paid EP - these planes (or the FMs currently available for them) would not work well with other EP standard planes, and the pre-EP FMs as a set will not work properly at all in a EP patched game for many reasons. So......available now in d/ls section. Other than the idea and some knowledgeable editing, don't thank me, thank the A-team for their still great models (these are some of their best), and TK, of course. Also included in that d'l are the pilot and exhaust fume stuff from first post. I'm sure you'll have fun with these....

arrgggg, not again....

Hi Barkhorn1x, You can use my alternative FMs by just putting them in the correct plane folders, as previously. The patch doesn't change how they work. TK has tweaked his FMs, in a very minor way mostly, thats all, and with mixed results, IMO. As I said a while back his initial lot were very highly tuned and hard to improve without completely redoing them, and I think thats the case for TK tweaking his own - or maybe he's just happy with them as they are :). The Albs have changed most, their pitch (turn ability) improved considerably - its really the only change. They are quite good, and if these had been the initial version I probably wouldn't have done alternative ones. However, now that I have done them, I don't particularly like the new ones, for one reason: TKs Albs now are turn fighters, you can outturn a Camel in a dogfight. With mine you do need skill and a variety of tactics (turn, climb, and dive) to be successful, and I fly them quite a bit for this reason. It seems right to me. They are great AI too. More generally, the older Spads 7s are better to me (I'll continue using the original ones), the Camel and Dr1 have changed marginally, maybe a bit of improvement. The Se5a is still useless. The Spad 13 a bit better, but again climb dive hasn't improved, its just become a turn fighter. The Re8 and DWFC5 are pretty much the same - I'd recommend using mine it makes them a bit better to fly if you like flying two seaters. Just my opinions, you know. Hope that helps. Cheers

Good to hear

Hi Sockboy, Which Aircraftobject.ini are you using? If you have one in your "Objects" directory, rename it to say "my Aircraftobject.ini". and try again. It will revert to the one that came with the game automatically (in a cat file). I'd say that should work, but I don't have the pre-EP game patched, so its an educated guess...seems TK has done something with the Aircraftobject.ini that causes some problems when you use previous versions, probably both in patched pre-EP and in patched EP as well!!. As you say, its becoming a mouthful lol....

Yes its been time consuming. More frustrating, as you could probably attest to with all my incremental updates (and hopefully improvements over time), its been challenging with the new style FMs. But I'm happy with the result. All modesty aside, 90% of the FMs (probably ALL the 1917-1918 planes) are now of a very high and consistent standard. I doubt I can improve any of these ones from a perspective of how they fly, feel and their performance differences. And, hehehe, they are as good if not better than most of TKs too!! Still a couple of things to do, but the main challenge is the wing warpers... the earlier planes are harder to do without a doubt (need to feel somewhat different, and stalls/takeoff are tricky), and haven't yet found a way mimicking wing warping that I'm reasonably happy with. Must get even a bit more lateral about this..... Anyway, hope your all also enjoying the FMs.

Skyhigh, The loading times depend on the number of plane folders you have... with just the stock set, my machine loads the game in 5 secs, with all addons it takes about 1 min. I don't use a mod enabler, but this would slow it down further IMO. But even with a huge number of mods FE still loads faster than most of the other games I play - Il2, SH3&4, OFF. Cheers

Well, another update, sorry guys. Added a newer FokkerD8 FM on 1917-1918 update, and slightly better Roland, Fe8, Morane Ns for 1916-1917 pack. Had some time to do more testing on these tonite and they are better than those uploaded before - I usually have a couple of versions tested, then load those that are completely tested, even tho some in a set are still being improved. I like to upload sets at a time. But this is it - I don't have any more on the assembly line, whatsoever.