peter01

Its in utility section of thirdwire games, done by Buff, page 4, called "SF Gun Editor for SP3". You may want to pick up the weaponeditor done by Buff there too for later use. I'm pretty sure you have to use these - its why they were developed.

Cheers guys, yes the AI is very good. I like it, tho have to say reduced the mg stuff because it got a bit too hard!! Its actually the best of both worlds now, because the AI zoom around dangerously (I think they should too), but its harder for them to shoot you down with reduced mg effectiveness - I survive most furballs now if sides are evenly matched but have to always watch my tail - not get fixated on shooting down planes only. J18Dread, re changes and 0.0083 etc, sounds like you modded the gundata.ini directly. I'm not sure that works. You should use the "Guneditor" program. Its available here at CA as a utility. If you have XP, just make sure you run it in Win 98 mode. Just one thing about reduced mg effectiveness. Some planes will be hard to shoot down. Example is Handley Page, Staaken, Gotha maybe some others (i think the pfalxD3 I did too). If so, its best to reduce DefaultArmorThickness= in FM to say 25 (maybe 30 plus at moment for these). Similar for others if tough to shoot down. Firecage did a good Dr1 for Hard FM a while ago. I have done the Camel and Dr1 recently - in Late War Set here at CA under Flight Models, as is Firecage's. EDIT: Forgot to mention that both Firecages and my Dr1 do indeed do very good flat turns - about 4 secs or less to turn around. Cheers

303CAL_VICKERS_MK2 above should be 303CAL_VICKERS_MK1.

just a couple of changes... you need to change the gundata using the guneditor, changing field "Ammo Wt (g)" this is what i have done 303CAL_VICKERS_MK2 -----> 8.3 (was initially I think 13.3) 303CAL_LEWIS_MK2 -----> 8.3 (was initially I think 13.3) 7.92MM_PARABELLUM_MG14 -----> 6 (was initially I think 10) 7.92MM_SPANDAU_LMG08/15 -----> 8 (was initially I think 12) I experimented extensively before settling on these - slightly higher or slightly lower - too easy, too hard for me at least - but you may find other numbers more to your liking. And really will only work with good AI, otherwise they will never shoot down anything. Works well... Firstly, with the much improved AI its hard to survive as a player with default mgs. With this change it usually takes the AI a number of shots to bring you down. But believe me, they definitely can easily do that! From a player perspective, it can be hard to bring down a plane. You can use up a lot of ammo (200-300 is not uncommon to down one plane), but if you hit critical components it can be 10-50. It encourages good shooting. You notice a big difference between 2 guns and one. Both player and AI. I have played several dogfights, Pups vs AlbatrosDvas, and though generally the Pup is a better plane, unless I as the player in the Pup shoot down a couple quickly to help the team, the Pups will lose quite badly. I think its because of the 2 guns. And if so, seems right to me.

Good points. I'd say we/the community would need to come to an agreement over what would be best to include. No one person could do it IMO, unless it was just the basics such as ALL the planes, a terrain, campaigns and missions. Most other things become a matter of personal taste. Best to have wider participation and agreement, I think. They have been modified to fly in Hard. I'd suggest that for multiplayer, a supermod should be developed - its a good example. It probably should be a seperate install too. With planes sustaining more damage - its far better IMO to reduce mg effectiveness, rather than "hardening" each plane. A problem of course (not in MP) is that as you toughen up planes, it becomes harder for the AI too - best to change only a few things in the gundata file and tweak or retweak rather than all the FMs. I'd say that you get a far better result too, and can add some other changes then to some planes in the FM itself to enhance this.

Actually, thats why I think this is a good time. The addon will generate new interest. Having a supermod or an "all inclusive package" ready immediately afterwards would be perfect. At the very least the "all inclusive package" could have all the planes (or a subset, say 1918 to fit with TKs), perhaps a terrain or choice of terrains, some missions and campaigns (a few done BTW), and this would probably be enough to start IMO. After that people could customise it easily enough with skins, FMs, smoke effects, screens, etc etc as they please, tho this could be done to start with as well but it becomes quite subjective as J18Dread states. The reason I started this thread is: yes, FE is highly customisable, many of us enjoy doing this, but we have been part of FE for quite some time. We downloaded things incrementally, have a good idea of what we like and don't, and change things if we can, and spent a lot of time doing this. I would not d/l a supermod myself - many of you would not either, I suspect. But for a Newbie? Or for a person that tried it earlier and didn't like it, then perhaps deleted it? You know, we have a lot of planes, its one of the strengths of the game - but who on earth is going to d/l 60-70 planes individually???? Not many. Maybe we make the mistake of thinking about this game from our own perspective rather than from a newcomers? I suspect that they would like ALL the planes. better terrains, missions, campaigns in one go,and then worry about improving it with FMs, skins, immersion aspects, damage moddelling, even multiplayer. And preferably for them, these changes then would be easy to download too, maybe in one go as well. But you have to start somewhere. So this a suggestion to attract new players - and we do need them, rather badly IMO. FE is as good (probably better) as any WW1 aviation sim, at least now to me, and may get a lot better again with TKs addon, the problem is one of making it easy for others to fully enjoy initially or retry. Otherwise no matter how good, its appeal is limited - partly because a number of people were disappointed initially with some aspects, and that is the view given by them to others that inquire at some other forums.

Thanks for pointing this out Tailspin - let me know if you find any others, trivial, major. or in-between. I'll update some time down the track, as you point out its not easy for anyone if I keep updating, so won't be doing small fixes unless critical.

Into late war now finally, and its good - different dogfight experience with more ZnB, and far more frantic. Planes I have done are also different - not like monos I did (jaunty, unstable), german 1916 (simple but business like), allied 1916 planes (simple but more sophisticated due to ailerons etc). So the feel varies over time - I like this from a game experience POV. Zip includes AlbDva, Fokker D7s, Spad13, Se5a. Some are new FMs, some are major or minor mods to TKs. AI are superb. Done for Hard Mode of course. Though they seem fine consider them beta, haven't tested them completely nor completed stalls as carefully as I would like - I was going to wait for TK to release his new addon, but it seems to be taking forever, so thought I'd share them as is with those interested. Let me know what you think of them, or any issues (I might have more!), and if interest I'll make them available in the downloads section, with others maybe. Cheers Alternative_FMs_for_TKs_Fighters.zip

Okay, last ones for a while - certainly until some time after TKs update - should be in CA downloads section shortly. Was flying the 2-seaters for some time last night and they seem fine so thought I d/l now rather than wait....I'd like to get this finished as well!! Spent time tweaking and tweaking over several weeks - in terms of feel and flying characteristics, AI , and consistency for the previous late war set i posted a couple of weeks ago. In terms of AI, its improved even more for the very late planes, as well as Camel, Spad13, Se5a - these are extremely capable as AI and do some quite interesting maneouvers at times. I think this is as good as it can be at present...and I think many of you will like them too. All the previous lot except 2 seaters I posted here above have changed one way or another - sometimes minor, sometimes AI only, sometimes major. The major ones, very briefly, are: AlbD3 - tightened feel, was too light, performance the same PfalzD3 - new, better, about equal in capability to Albs PfalzD8 - different feel somewhat PfalzD12 - minor changes to Charles, but works very well, actually my favourite SchukertD3 - different feel somewhat FokkerD8 - improved pitch, turns better Camel - quite different, far more capable, minor quirks introduced Snipe - better capability F2B Brisfit - takes off fine now Se5a - roll reduced, tightening on dive reduced, better dogfighter now Have fun, cheers

hi gambit, Thanks firstly for all the new skins you are doing, they are very good. Must be heaps of work....appreciate it all very much. Thank you. With StartTimeCompression, good find!! The wwi planes were very nimble, without a doubt, and the action would have been fast and furious. This is a good way of doing it, as you can't really do it to the extent I think it should be in the FMs - the AI won't handle it. So this is a great lateral solution. I've set mine at 1.1 but maybe will increase too. Tried StartPaused=TRUE, and is useful, BUT if I fly the se5a it crashes the program. It least for my game. All others are fine. Pity but oh well, don't fly Se5a that much. Thanks for posting these finds...there is just so much you can do with the game, we're all just still discovering some of this.

It be great to get the CL1 too!! The germans had so many ground attack planes, but we don't have any yet Actually they had a very large number of different recon/bomber types too.

Something a little new from me - 2-seaters for 1917-18 period. All new FMs. Breguet14, Aviatik, DFWC5, Be2D, RolandC2/Walfisch. Tried to get AI working well too - but bombing success/orders etc have not changed. Plus Latons FokkerDVIII, maybe a bit different too! Note with FokkerDVIII top speed is around 6000ft. I'm redoing some of the late war ones, actually complete. But I'll wait a week or so if any feedback on these, and then upload entire lot to d/l section. Complete as in .... i won't be doing anymore on them AT ALL until after TKs update. What I have been doing is slowly getting the feel or flying qualities how I'd like, and I'd say they are pretty good, no exceptions. Also tweaking AI, consistency,takeoffs. I will describe briefly the changes I have made when I upload. Couple of points, am starting to change max speeds from s/l for some to higher altitudes. Its specified in the data file at top if this is the case. With takeoff, they are all fine I think. If some are a little highly strung, then start at 0% throttle, and throttle up. Its the first second or two at 100% throttle that causes the most jittery bit in this game. Cheers Alt_FMs_2_Seaters___FokkerD8.zip

This was raised in another thread on my planes, and as I said I'm not doing a lot here yet, no more than anyone else for that matter. So thought I'd start another thread. I am interested in this however. And will start looking at it more ... but have some uncertainty and concerns about some things. And wondering what others think. It was very much a part of the wwi flying of course, probably dominated pilots thoughts, more so I'd say than any other period even tho any combat pilot would push their planes to the limits in action I guess. And for planes going at say 100 -130mph, they were very high comparatively, maybe around 45-60 mph I believe. But do people want such high stalls? There are so many differences in hard and normal modes its not funny - its not just stalls. You have all sorts of effects, the AI are better, you do not climb or turn as well etc. And i'd like people to play hard, it is far better EVEN if you have no stalls whatsoever. But stalls are interesting, and its probably easy to have say for one plane a FM that stalls at 40mph, and an alternate hard one that stalls at 50 mph. Seems small - but it would make quite a difference. That would be quite easy to implement. Difficulty is, you know, installing - its not like ticking an options box. Or maybe it is - there are packages around that swap in and out different mods. Another thing, is it worth doing more realsitic stalls if you can't recover from them. I had a pilots licence some years back, and when I first played FE, I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong recovering from stalls or funny spins until it dawned on me you couldn't recover - at least not with confidence, at least not for TKs early set. I may be wrong. As someone posted, maybe you can, just you do it differently! Lastly, can you do convincing stalls and spins - I'm still undecided about this, probably cos I haven't seen it as a priority for me to date. And if so how much work, is it worth it? A difficulty in FE is you are balancing so many things in the FM - the feel, performance and AI. The last is important, because its 90% of the work getting a good AI really - it probably shouldn't be so hard. So stalls yes. But how high? Can they be realsitic? Can you recover? Do the other games in TKs range have convincing stall behavior? I probably should buy them and try it, don't mind supporting TW, and the games are probably good too.

Thanks for comments Shrikehawk. Appreciate them. Speed, many things still not done. No spins, rudder will be improved too, yep. Pitch needs to be more responsive, twitchy and improved as well. I did say experimental! Stalls are not low compared to most, just weak at this stage. Torque in this game is not gyro effects, and increasing makes takeoff hairy too. But, all that is simple stuff, easily done, the reason I posted was that in turns to right it goes down, turns to left it goes up, markedly - that is the most distinctive Camel characteristic (with spins accompanying all this). Turn to the right is very quick, turn to left is not. Whichever way, you need to apply opposite rudder immediately. Its tricky and interesting in a dogfight. Its a first, I think. Just as importantly, it works as an AI too. And flying against it you do what thay would have done. I think its just great to fly too.

Good quote P10ppy. It is frightening! I do find interesting the way he describes it: "but fell into a spin" etc. My understanding is that many proficent WW1 flyers used controlled spins extensively as a tactic in dogfights. If it read more like "went into a spin" at times too, it clicks more with what I know....maybe it just the way he uses words, but doesn't seem like it!

Fantastic....wow, you guys are really on a roll!!

Hi gambit, there are newer versions done of Pup/Tripe/AlbD3/Fe2b/F2b/Dh2, included with the new ones like the Snipe, Fokker D7s - its called Late War Set in the d/l section.

Another F2B Brisfit update. F2b_DATA.zip The problem wasn't the climb, I think now it was some typo somewhere in the [MissionData]. Very obscure, had to replace everything non-FM related in the file as it only affected the AI, before I solved it. Now flying it more, decided to reduce the gunner firing to the front too, his arc is now limited. The Brisfit is good enough as is. And as it should be...just following on discussion in previous thread, its been done according to what I know: even tho claims by Brisfit crews have been clearly shown to be over optimistic, they could hold their own against any german 1918 fighter in a dogfight. And with a gunner they were more than a match, so much so that the germans avoided them...the Brisfits took to flying in pairs rather than squadrons to entice attacks!! Thats my understanding anyway. So yep, its pretty good, despite its size, for both player, and as AI. BTW, any comments on the experimental Camel?

Okay, after the F2B, thought I'd check them all, as it was not my latest version of it. As it happens the AlbD3 is not either - a quite different, early version. The corrrect one is here as zip for those that have d/l'ed, and have updated file in downloads section. Sorry, I left them a couple of weeks ago, and didn't name them well, so when I came back, selected wrong ones. have checked all, and if nothing else, they are the correct files. AlbatrosD3_DATA.zip As a consolation, cos I know the early d/l'ers probably read this topic, here are some extras. Well, I've said you can't get enough Camels. Its true, but also true about Albatros' as well, for me. Biggles and all that I guess. So the extra pack includes an Albatros d1, Albatros d2, Albatros Dv (as against Dva) - they are all very nice. similar to others but different too, maybe best Albs yet. i will update Borts AlbD1 and AlbD2s with these FMs, but not going to do it till later, so these use TKs Dva model. As does the Dv. You just need to copy the AlbDva folder and rename the copied folders AlbatrosD1 etc. Then drop the two files for each (data file and ini file for each plane into folder). Funnily enough my first Alb was the hardest FM to do, but here I am now churning them out as if I'm a german production factory! JFM did some really nice early Alb skins that look the part, if you missed these. But the interesting one is an "experimental" Camel. Its not complete by a long shot (eg top speed 100mph), but just for you to try out if you like, as it exhibits a typical Camel characteristic. Its fun and a challenge to fly and in a dogfight, and quite interesting generally, more movement, bouncing. Its probably the one I'll use to try a spin, again later. Oddly enough the AI doesn't seem to have any issues with it - which is good, bodes well for the future. Cheers Extras.zip

Spot on Tailspin. Just to recap: On the AI side, damage will always be a little less pronounced - I believe its the damaging modelling for the AI in the game engine. I think its been done this way for good reasons too - perhaps not place to elaborate, but basically relates to the AI's ability to fly a plane when damaged. Different or better AI parameters will exacerbate this - its a tradeoff, but a very minor one to me at least - I wouldn't even play the game without decent AI opponents. On the player side, forces, especially lift/drag can be placed anywhere in the FM (not all tho), and the plane will fly the same. However, the placement of the things are important to stall behavior, so if I do that, it will mean rejigging things, not redoing FMs per se. And as Tailspin points out this is probably important for damage modelling. So hopefully, keeping fingers crossed, they will work when done "right". Of course it could well be that to get interesting stalls, there may be a tradeoff in damage modelling too. Now having said all that, I am not looking at stalls or damage modelling now, or even redoing things. It will have to wait until TKs new release. And at the moment still (leisurely) exploring ways of changing the feel for some, and adding some quirky features - and having fun too. But its good its been raised. If it can be addressed, and if I try, the time will be after TKs release. But just don't get expectations too high - the FMs are full of compromises, and there may be more doing this. And of course.... Perhaps the real problem is that wings are shot off!! The game is designed to give extravagant (can't think of any other way to describe it) damage effects. So in this example perhaps if you get hit in the outer wing, you lose 1/3 lift (harder to fly), but the wing shouldn't fall off, or if it does (maybe random), then the whole plane is actually destroyed. Its a game engine thing. I don't get these types of things in my game that much anyway now. Due to reduced mg effectiveness. Maybe thats the way to go too. It gets complex doesn't it?

Hehe, deserve an Iron Cross at least 2nd Class for that I'd say. Now this is interesting. But takes some explaining why. As your flying the plane, eliminates the AI parameters as a problem here of course. In terms of destroyed versus disabled and heavy - this was the mistake I made previously not following TKs approach. Destroyed doesn't mean destroyed, I think it means that enemy AI "thinks" you are destroyed. What I have now is standard. I haven't made any differences to the aerodynamics and allocation of lift etc to the original. So a question is: did this happen before - I don't fly anytrhing but my own, so don't know. If this wasn't the case, then its the thing I mentioned earlier about something I'll redo when looking at stalls - seems odd I know that they seem related, but it may be a very minor thing I have done, that I will need to do slightly differently to get the best stall effects if you like. But will not be doing this now, and can't be 100% positive, but couldn't be anything else, at least not logically - its either that, or it was that way always (and hence the game engine), or something doesn't work in the game as it should. BTW this happens with other planes I fly. I am postive it was happening before too, but maybe not. Cheers.

Just found a problem with the Brisfit, basically AI wingmen have trouble after takeoff. Set some AI parameters too aggressively, they try to climb too quickly. Fix is to change following in data ini in [FlightControl] section near top: Is: CruiseSpeed=44.96 ClimbSpeed=44.49 CornerSpeed=46.61 To: CruiseSpeed=42.96 ClimbSpeed=24.49 CornerSpeed=36.61 Alternatively, heres a zip with changes, or wait till I upload a fix later today maybe to downloads section: F2b_DATA.zip

Hi Bandy, Generally i'd say I'm pushing the FMs to their limits, including the AI. All changes have consequences. many can be fixed, but takes time for issues to become evident, identify causes, and fix of course. Yep, its a bit frightening to me too - but I think when TK releases his new update I'll be all fired up again, so hoping it'll give me the impetus!! Thats pretty correct re Camels and variants, as well as why. Thanks re characteristics, I am at this point concentrating more on this with nearly all the planes. I'm not sure that anyone notices, so its good to hear you say that, but many of the planesare really quite different to what has been done in past. Getting that smallish difference consumes quite a bit of time, and you really have to explore! But, I am finding that I just liking flying the planes around now, so its worth it to me, so doing more missions as well as straight out dogfights. I guess it means I feel that the AI and the consistency/balance thingy are working very well, and now concentrating on other things. Yes, the FMs are a lot of work. To do a simple one in a standard way I'd guess would take me a day or two from scratch now. To do one thats really good, completely tested, and all stuff done well (stalls, a few other things on the list that nobody has raised), well, thats at least two weeks really. And if you are doing a set thats reasonably consistent where there was no real consistency (EWS), you could double that for each plane - because you go round in loops modding performance which then affects everything else. Hence, continual new versions. It is...but this will have to wait, until I redo stalls...it sorta relates to that. I do know why these things happen at times, tho its really only a minor irritant to me and doesn't happen that often, and redoing is not much work. But it is a lot of work if I have to constantly redo. Not meaning to sound flippant, but its one of the reasons I consider these beta. Nothing complex here, just did things for some planes differently to TK early on just thru lack of awareness that it was actually different, and repeated that error for a few. FMs. Its not a biggie, but as the AI becomes better it becomes more evident. I wouldn't change TKs damage modelling anymore. I am convinced that damage modelling is different for the player and AI - damge modelling as distinct from the Flight Model, which is also different, and complicated by changing AI parameters (which are or should be different for each plane). So it would be a very complex time consuming task to improve anything here. Not me!! The benefit of reducing mg effectiveness is its more satisfying, damge effects are not so immediate or spectacular, takes better shooting, and as you say I don't experience many damage effect problems (I think), because you don't blast away wings, you need to hit critical components which usually results in the damage modelling working out. The AI are fine too, if you use mine. Actually it could be better - I do like tough AI, but I guess from previous post you like me want to survive. So this to me works exremely well in many ways. BTW it could be that mg effectiveness is as it is in stock versions for many of these reasons: eg, AI not made overly capable possibly due to "implications" in ai damage modelling. Conversely reducing mg effectiveness would mean AI would need to be quite good. For TKs target audience this may be the best approach. He certainly knows what he's doing.....but I am hoping he's going to take a chance and push the FMs a bit more - feel, AI, extra WWI planes quirks, tree top fighting, gyro effects. Shouldn't build my hopes up, but.... I was at first a little disappointed when I found out TK was doing a Camel and Dr1, I'm happy enough with the A-teams, and would prefer new planes on balance. But on reflection, TK has to do these quite differently, make them interesting. Se5a, D7s and even Spad13 are a different story. So, thats why I am hoping some good things could come out of the next release from an FM perspective. Cheers

All done, will be uploading. Thanks to everyone who gave me feedback - very useful. A few points about these FMs, and the changes. Firstly, they are very good, in all ways, of course!! But their not perfect. And they are still beta - any major issues you or I find, and whatever comes out of TK's new release, I'll fix or update. Some issues i am aware of: Takeoff is good in Hard for all except Brisfit. Sorry, but press autopilot for first few secs. Looked very closely at damage modelling, and followed TKs way of doing it. But now i am testing for it, do see some issues on occaision. Not sure if its just the game or my FMs as such - haven't tried others but do recollect having issues even with TKs many months ago, so not sure. Anyway it is as it is... Some other points: Many of the later war A-teams FMs are still, if not nearly entirely, Charles and the A-teams work. But all have been changed in performance and feel, optimised for hard FM, AI tweaked, and a couple are completely new. Roll on many of these (maybe all!) is a bit good. Have spent time looking at the roll on each plane, and in the end, this is best to me for many reasons - mainly due to various compromises such as feel, consistency and ai. There are 19 FMs, and the changes to those already posted here on the forum or in downloads section are briefly: FokkerDr1, Dolphin, Snipe, Schuckert are unchanged. Fe2b is unchanged - just thought I'd include it in this upload as well. FokkerD7, FokkerD7F are unchanged. AlbatrosD3 a bit different. More capable. Pup, Tripe changed somewhat. And these and the Dh2 have more pitch and/or range of pitch. Quite a bit. Have found dogfights better like this, both player and AI can climb and dive more. Climb reduced a bit to keep them balanced in terms of capability and consistency with other planes. Fe2b brisfit is quite different to fly, same FM however. Greatly improved in feel, was too smooth before. same gunner traverse as my previous version - 360 degrees - i like it. Camel reverse rudder roll reduced. PfalzD3 is completely new to that previously posted. PfalzD8 is new, in that haven't uploaded my version before. Its nearly the same as that done by Charles, mainly the feel. You may like the original better, so back it up! Spad7 has been redone - actually my current favourite. Similar to Spad13, but quite different too, and for those that like a challenge. AlbatrosDva's pitch and pitch range improved, more competitive for player now (AI is comparatively the same as it was), fixed some damage modelling and the pilot is the standard one now. Spad13 roll has been reduced, takeoff is fine now. AI improved. Se5a is now a better ZnB fighter. Doesn't tighten as much on the dive, so can recover and use climb/dive in a dogfight. Cheers