wagsled

Mike, You are quite correct regarding the F-4B in WOV. I dusted my WOV off this evening and tried the F-4B out in a dogfight with some MiG-21's. The basic handling is not representative at all, with directional control (yaw using rudders) for fine tuning a guns solution just about impossible. Pitch and roll seemed a bit slow to me as well and both those axes did not damp out occillations as they should. This is one of the reasons I changed the damper settings for all three axes in the F-4 data.ini. In the F-4's (all models I flew) as long as the stability augmentation was on and working (and it did most of the time), the Phantom was a pretty stable gun platform, especially at low to medium altitudes. In fact, we often turned roll stab aug off in dogfights so we could increase our roll rates and not experience any feedback (felt as mild, jerky push-back in the roll axis) from the augmentation. The F-4B in WOV is also over-powered. I never saw over 700 KTAS on the deck in any F-4, yet the F-4B in WOV will do 830...that's 1.15 Mach, way too fast. I then installed the MF F-4G in WOV. Although it seems to be a bit less "twitchy" than the F-4B, it too is very over-powered and doesn't bleed energy as an F-4E would. I'm assuming they didn't put souped up J-79s in the F-4G - if they did, that might account for some of the excess power. I didn't get a chance to fly the F-4G, so I'm guess here. At any rate, try it out on the deck in full burner...something like 768 KTAS. I'd believe 685 KTAS on the deck, maybe. I'm going to try some mods to the FM's for the Phantoms in WOV to see if I can get them to fly as I think they should. That won't mean they are correct, by the way; just that they'll sort of feel the way an old guy like me thinks they should. Take care and check six! Wagsled

No problem, FastCargo; you can use them as you see fit. I really don't want to start telling war stories though...just thought I might have some insight on air combat tactics that a few haven't tried yet. Regards, Wagsled

Thanks for this, CoolHand29...I'll give those settings a try, although I'll probably start at 7.5g. That's about where I used to start seeing enough reduction (tunneling) in peripheral vision to be really noticeable. Also, recovery is much faster than in the sim...I guess I can mess around with the RestoreRate to vary that. I'm going to start another thread here with some thoughts/memories that came back to me as I was pushing an F-4B around trying to handle 10 MiG-21's with a wingman who, although he got one, went down early in the fight. Maybe some of the tactics will be of use to others trying to get the most out of the Phantom. Thanks again and cheers, Wagsled

Thanks for the great information, Crusader. For now, though, since "playtime" is somewhat limited I'll just put a Mirage Factory F-4E in SFP1 or WOV and try some comparison flying qualities and performance tests. Maybe that will work... Cheers, Wagsled

Good input on the WOI differences, Kreelin. I felt that might be the case. When I departed controlled flight in the F-4E IDF (in WOI) and entered a spin, the spin recovery was standard, i.e. throttle - idle, stick - full forward, ailerons - neutral, rudder - full opposite the spin direction. Worked as it did in the real F-4E. When I departed with the same F-4E model in SFP1, I could not recover from the spin. So, obviously, you have hit the nail on the head! By the way, do you know how to put the standard ThirdWire F-4's (all models) into WOI and have them work? I thought that might be a good test of the various FM's. Thanks and cheers, Wagsled

Hi GreyCap, Well, I did a little evaluation this evening as you suggested...tried both the stock ThirdWire F-4E and the Mirage Factory F-4E IDF (Early) in dogfights against both MiG-21's and MiG-17's. I did this in the SFP1 patched to the latest with Operation Tainted Cigar Version 2 installed. All setting for flight model, weapons, enemy skill, etc. were set on Hard. I will say that I don't set the G-Effect on Hard - I use "Easy" - because I could always pull more g than this simulator allows you to do without greying out. The g-effect is just set too low. Anyway, I managed to get a few kills with both models and didn't get shot down (although I did depart the Mirage Factory model once and couldn't recover - had to punch out). I felt that neither model was truly representative, but that the stock model seemed to have performance more in line with what I remember, while the Mirage Factory model seemed to have more representative flying qualities. I looked at the numbers in the FM for both and, assuming I remember correctly, there are some significant errors in both FM's. For example, in the stock model you find: [FlightControl] StallSpeed=61.29 CruiseSpeed=216.50 ClimbSpeed=407.97 CornerSpeed=196.08 MaxG=8.50 MaxSpeedSL=377.57 MachLimit=2.06 PitchDamper=0.7 RollDamper=0.3 YawDamper=0.0 GunBoresightAngle=-2 RocketBoresightAngle=-5 The speeds listed are in m/sec and using conversions to knots, I believe the following is more representative of the real F-4E performance. By the way, the same numbers for the Mirage Factory F-4E are even further off what I believe is correct. [FlightControl] StallSpeed=69.45 CruiseSpeed=216.50 ClimbSpeed=205.77 CornerSpeed=216.5 MaxG=7.50 MaxSpeedSL=318.00 MachLimit=2.14 PitchDamper=0.75 RollDamper=0.4 YawDamper=0.15 GunBoresightAngle=-2 RocketBoresightAngle=-5 The F-4E was limited to 7.5g at combat weight or above - anything more was considered an over-stress and required a visual inspection for possible damage. You'll notice I've also tweaked the pitch, roll, and yaw damper settings slightly. I think this is more representative of the F-4E handling qualities, but still a long way from the "fine tuning" I would like to give the FM if I had more time - and knowledge. There are a lot more FM settings that I'd like to look at, but I don't know enough about how they were set up and I'd probably just screw them up if I messed about too much. Anyway, to answer your question about which is more "realistic", they both have strengths and weaknesses. Probably somewhere between the two is a good FM - I just don't know enough to make all the right changes. Good hunting and check six! Wagsled

Spinners, I haven't tried the Mirage Factory E-model yet, nor any of their other Phantoms. This probably sounds silly. but I don't "fly" Phantoms too often in ThirdWire games...not sure why, probably because I enjoy turning and burning (A-4 Scooter and later the Hornet were both good for that and sort of spoiled me!). I'll pull the Mirage Factory model down and give both versions a quick eval, then post my thoughts...for what they're worth! LOL. Cheers, Wagsled

To All Interested in Phantoms: Because I transferred my commission from the USAF to the USMC following Vietnam, I had the opportunity (and pleasure!) of flying the C, D, E, B, N, J, and S models of the Phantom. They each had significant differences as I recall and flew similarly but also differently - if that makes any sense! There were handling and performance differences you could easily identify, but it was easy to switch from one model to the other and not have any problems. At modest to high angles of attack, however, all Phantoms - even the slatted E and S versions - had nasty habits and would depart controlled flight with even a little bit of aileron - less than an inch deflection was often enough to set up an adverse yaw departure. Good Phantom jocks learned to fly turns with their feet (rudders) at AOAs over 15 or16 units. We would freeze the stick laterally and use the rudders to roll or turn. I occasionally used an intentional departure from controlled flight as a guns defensive move - but only when I had lots of altitude to recover - and only when I had a RIO I trusted not to eject too quickly 'cause he didn't know what I was doing! As for radars, I'm going to have to do this from a slightly less than ideal memory. I believe all the USAF versions I flew in Vietnam were lacking any "look down, shoot down" capability. The J and S in the Corps did have a PD radar although it was one of the early versions and didn't have a great MTBF, but when it worked we did have a limited "look down, shoot down" capability. We tended to fly a lot of "lead-nose" training missions in the Corps, especially in the mid-70's, because the radar was so hard to keep in an "up" status. It sure was fun, though and I miss the hell out of it! Cheers to all, Wagsled

Hi Markkyle66, I've got about 2,000 hours in various models of the Phantom and the comments from your friends are right on the money. The Phantom couldn't do any one thing better than other a/c, but it did a great many things pretty well. It did bleed energy like crazy and had all the glide characteristics of a flying ketchup bottle. The fight against MiG-17's, 19's and 21's had to be a vertical fight - we called it the "egg" because the turns over the top were smaller radius than those at the bottom due to the 1 additional g you get from gravity - and the egg will work if you know what you are doing and have practiced it a good bit. Just don't get slow and don't try to turn with them...kiss of death if the MiG isn't flown by some hamfist. BTW, I also flew with the Triple Nickle in 1970 out of Udorn RTAFB...any chance your friend might have been with them around the same time? Keep checking six! Wagsled

When flying a War for the Waters campaigns (all 3 campaigns use the Shahak), following the loading screen (where all appears normal), instead of a normal cockpit view (starting in the air) I get a frozen view of the sky and horizon. No cockpit shows, my TrackIR does nothing and I see nothing but sky and horizon. No HOTAS or keyboard keys work, except the Escape key which ends the mission. This happens every time the mission is a Fighter Sweep or CAP, but not always when the mission is Strike. This is a fresh install of WOI, immediately updated with the WOI April 2008 Update before any other modifications or additional campaigns were added. I'm not sure where to look for a possible solution. Any help will be much appreciated. Thanks, Wagsled

Sorry for slow response - have been on business travel. I did not try to save previous campaigns when I applied the patch. All of Pancho's campaigns started following the patch have resulted in the "blue sky" screen. I'm not sure what else to try... Thanks, Wagsled

Thanks, Sal. I did try one of the other campaigns from Pancho with the same result. Guess I'll just stand by for updates. Much appreciate your response. Regards, Wags

That pretty much says it all, Caesar! Wags

That's very interesting, exlead! Sounds like you had your share of excitement, too. I flew two tours w/USAF in Phantoms, first with 555th TFS and the second with the 335th TFS. After 'Nam, got fed up with USAF attempts to keep us combat vets out of cockpit and transfered commissions to the USMC. Flew F-4J's with VMFA-312 and VMFA-251; did 3 years of instructing in TA-4J's at Beeville, then went to USNTPS (Class '81) and ended up managing the F/A-18A/B flight test program at Pax. Best job I eve had! After I retired, I ran the flight test program for the A-4SU Super Skyhawk in Singapore. Good fun, that one! Of all the birds I flew, though, I still have a soft spot for the F-4. It may not have been the best at any specific mission, but it was the best all-around fighter I flew. I guess if I had to go back to combat, I'd rather have a Hornet, but only because it dogfights like a dream and the avionics are outstanding! Best of luck to you and thanks for your reply. Cheers, Wags P.S. It is still a shame about Duke, though. A good man who screwed up big time!

Hi Quax, Well, with a bit over 2,000 hours in various models of the F-4, I think I can answer your question. The backseater in Phantoms played several very important roles in achieving mission success. Known in the USAF as Weapon Systems Operator (WSO) and the USN/USMC as Radar Intercept Officer (RIO), the guy-in-back (or GIB) was responsible for the following: ran virtually all radar intercepts (the F-4 radar was not automated as most modern fighter radars are); handled most navigation; handled normal radio comms; was responsible for the RHAW (Radar Homing and Warning) gear, and in general took a huge load off the pilot. This was important in the F-r because the workload could get pretty intense due to the lack of modern systems automation. For example, the radar was pretty complex. The only automatic target acquisition in the radar occured in Boresight Mode and was used mainly during close-in dogfights ("knifefights" as we laughingly called them). During dogfights, the GIB's eyes were mainly used outside the cockpit to help keep track of the bad guys visually...and believe me, that was one of the most important roles the GIB had. An extra set of eyes in a dogfight is worth more than you can imagine. In fact, the really great GIBs could literally "talk" pilots through defensive maneuvers, thus saving their butts when the bad guy had saddled up on you. I had the honor and privelege to fly with some of the best GIBs in the world, in actual combat and advanced combat training, and those guys were worth much more than their weight in gold...or platinum or diamonds for that matter. When you owe your life to the guy sitting behind you, you realize just how much he's worth. Your question comes at a particularly emotional time for me, however, because the best GIB I ever knew passed away recently at 56 from lymphoma. Mike "Mini" Mott was the best there ever was and he will be missed. (Google "Mike Mott" if you wish - he had a great career and was with NASA for a long time and with Boeing when he died.) Hope this answers your question...the GIB, whether called the WSO or RIO, was an integral part of the Phantom team and no good F-4 pilot would ever argue that point. Regards, Wags

I know I've done something wrong, but I cannot get the P-38H in the Solomons Campaign to start with any gun or cannon ammo. My wingman calls out of ammo before we even takeoff and the Loadout screen shows no ammo loaded. I've checked my other installations of SFP1 where I have the P-39H installed and it starts with 750 rounds...still below the 2150 total I believe it should have, i.e. 500 per .50 cal and 150 for the 20mm...but at least some gun ammo. I've checked the aircraftobject.ini for the P-38H and it shows it should have the load mentioned above. Is it possible that there isn't any gun ammo available? Thanks for any help. Otherwise the Solomons Campaign is working well and is much appreciated! Regards, Wagsled

Thanks very much for this, ezlead. I'll make the change today. Did you happen to see my question to you in The Pub Forum tread regarding Duke Cunningham? Thanks again for your help, Wags

~S! exlead, When you met Duke, were you a pilot as well? I ask only because of your comment about "good combat tips" and I wondered if you were flying over there as well. I met Duke much later in life, after I retired, but I was flying Phantoms in 'Nam in '72 with the USAF...maybe you and I ran across each other. Slim chance, but anything is possible. Cheers, Wags

I am very pleased with the Korean_Air_War_Mod and sincerely thank all those involved in building it. I believe I have correctly installed it in a fresh (patched to 3.2) version of SFP1 per the instructions. Most of the time I have no problems, all works as one would wish. However, approximately 1 out of every 5 missions (it can be either a campaign or single mission) I get either a black screen freeze when I end the mission (hit ESC) or I'll get a complete freeze during the mission itself. In either case I have to re-boot. If someone has seen something similar, please let me know and thanks very much in advance. BTW, I'm a former USMC fighter pilot and I just love the fact that I get to "fly" again. This is as close as it gets unless you are lucky enough to beg a few hours in an F/A-18 dome simulator (you really need to know someone to make that happen these days!) Thanks again and cheers, Wagslead