Robert33

Well, keeping to the DACT topic, I got the urge to try out other planes in the game... So I decided to take out the Mirage IIIE out for a spin.... Even though this is from the mobile platform, I realize why it's the last of the Western 50s interceptors (Mirage III, F-104, BAC Lightning) to remain in service albeit in a variety of forms. And true to its real life characteristics, it loses speed/energy FAST during prolonged turns. Of course, this is in the mobile version so the effects are more forgiving. On the other hand, its radar missile, RD550 if I recall correctly, feels like a dead weight in terms of reliability though it could be atributed to the somewhat historically lackluster performance of the Cyrano radar.

@saisran Well, a couple of multi-role birds won't hurt in upgrading the PAF's defense capabilities. To stay in topic, I'll also be posting my "DACT" soon. If you guys don't mind, it will be from the mobile version of SF since its the one that I get to use given my lifestyle.

Quoted for truth. The Philippine Air Force is 90% air and 10% force, sad to say... There were talks back in the late 90s to early 2000s about acquiring new fighters for the PAF but it never materialised. Most air power assets of the PAF are currently prioritised for counter-insurgency at the moment...

May I suggest using the Italian F-104S/CI model (Interceptor variant) if you have the mod in your files. It only carries missiles, a pair of sparrows and four sidewinders (up to six sidewinders if I'm not mistaken). Maybe that would ease your comparison troubles with the F-4N. The S-model entered service with the Italian Air Force sometime around 1968 so it should fit your pre-80s timetable. As for your other option... say F4 with a gun? how about the F4E? seems to perform good. Best F-104 match up for it, methinks would be the 1972-78 versions of the CF-104 or the G model.

@Kyot54 If I'm not mistaken, the Luftwaffe lost a sizeable number of their F4s (Pre F-ICE model) during operations, similar though no doubt less than the F-104s. Then again, the F-104 was the first mach2 fighter available to West Germany at the time and pilots (who trained) in the sunny US skies were pressed into the low-level strike role in Germany's usually bad (low overcast cloudy) weather. Add to that the maintenance crews who were not yet properly trained to the level of the F-104 and Hartman was right about his concerns with the Starfighter. To be fair, just as Cougar mentioned, the F4 was so hamfisted that it wouldn't do anything silly even if the pilot wanted it to... Which probably led to it being the safer plane to fly along with having more experience with handling mach2 fighters paid for with the lives of young low-hour pilots who lost it in the F-104G in low-level missions. I guess the Luftwaffe motto back then was "Train like its for real". Though you must admit that if you were a Soviet commander back in the Cold War, you'll be having sleepless nights thinking about those F-104Gs poised to do a high-speed lo-lo-lo nuke strikes at high-speed. ;) @EricJ Which F-104 version did you use? @Cougar Which F-104 variant are you planning to use for your upcoming "mega-DACT"? The G model of the Luftwaffe or the S model of the Italian Air Force?

@EricJ Yup, its considered a very rare and important historical document as far as the Starfighter community is concerned (as well as probably by many within the aviation community). Last I checked, Lockheed Martin still has the rights to the document itself.

Hmm... that's odd... works fine with me... Anyway, here's a sample from SURE (Starfighter Utilization Reliability Effort) Report:

Don't know how much of this applies to SF2 but I found a copy of the SURE report (F-104 "Manual") online. This might help budding Starfighter aficionados here: http://www.916-starfighter.de/cartoons%20.htm

@Eric From what I know about the Starfighter, its one of those planes that demands its pilots to know and respect its limitations and it will respect you back in return.

@Cougar Well, if we're talking about BVR, the F-104S and its derivatives seems to match the Mirage F1... Then again, I could be wrong since I'm not familiar with the Mirage F1's BVR capabilities.

@Cougar No sense in putting an AESA radar in a century series. They're good planes but their time in the spotlight is over. Just curious about the what-ifs since I've come across a lot of anecdotes from retired fighter jocks just how good their planes are. and any inputs from folks in the know is always appreciated.

@Cougar Would the results have been different if you were using the Italian F-104S, ASA or ASA/M versions against the F-15? From what I gather, they are most capable Starfighters around with upgraded avionics and engine as well as the Sparrows/Aspide capability. The downside is that it doesn't have a gun though I've heard (not sure about the info) that the ASA/M version has its gun back to complete its air-to-air armament.

@Macelena I take it that there were no fancy zoom climbs or maneuverings involved in your F-104 vs Eagle match up? @Cougar Last I checked, the F-104G was optimized for the low-level strike role... And with all that additional equipment added for the job, it seems to be expected that the G version is less nimble than the A and C versions dedicated to air superiority. Capability-wise, the closest match to the more modern Floggers, the ones with radar missiles, would be the Italian F-104S, ASA and ASA/M, courtesy of the Aspide missile. A slight advantage in-close however goes to the MiG23 courtesy of its gun.

I take it that you did it with a wingman? Or was it a mostly solo or 1v1 affair?

All very valid points. Spot on actually. Especially about the zoom climb part. Even in my mobile version, I dare not go into a zoom climb when I'm up against the more modern MiGs. And if they do catch me in one, I try to quickly go into a split-s/ inverted dive and pray that those missiles lose their lock chasing a very fast target. With regards to the comparison DACT, I was talking about F-104G vs MiG-23... Though if you're feeling gutsy, you can also do one against the F-15 :p of course that's pretty much feasible in a guns-only setting IMHO

If SF is accurate to what real flight is, then there is truth after all to what the Zipper veterans have been saying all along in spite of the genuine article's combat record. Come to think of it, one of the reasons as to why the Zipper has a "poor" combat record in Vietnam is because whenever the Zippers take-off, the MiGs stay on the ground. In hindsight, your video somewhat mirrors the performance of the Zipper that I have in my mobile version though of course, the mobile version is way less accurate and capable, being a mobile game. I've read somewhere that during the early Eagle (F15) days, F-104Gs were used in certain DACT exercises to simulate Floggers as they have similar performance. Next comparison maybe?

Ah, excellent maneuvering then. You seem to have a good grip on the Zipper :)

Thanks for fulfilling my request :) I'm just curious though... When you said you went vertical, what did you mean by "a bit"? I've read somewhere, most likely the same article DO335 posted here, that the Zipper flies and fights best in the vertical...

@Cougar If I'm not mistaken, there's a good number of Zipper mods in this forum. The latest and most updated seems to come from the Italians; understandable since they were the last to operate the Zipper and arguably fell in love with it.

No worries regarding my request. I was just wondering if there's a Zipper driver nearby, since I've noticed that most online pilots prefer one other aircraft and so forth over the Zipper for rather obvious reasons. From what I understand so far about SF 1 & 2, they are "study" simulators that allows a person to fly with their plane of choice in detail so specializations are bound to happen. @daddyairplanes Tried those tactics back in the days of Jane's combat simulators. Apparently, the Zipper is best used in a team.

That's true, angles fight is the natural tendency for most folks. it takes a bit of experience to get used to :) In keeping with the DACT topic, I'm sharing a video of my latest "sortie". Yes, it's from the mobile version of SF (and I am well-aware that there are a good number of folks in this forum that look down on it) but do cut me some slack since its the version of SF that I can properly enjoy with my current lifestyle. In my DACT report, I'm using an F-104S against a bunch of MiG23s and MiG17s. Takeaway: I tried doing energy tactics (at least as far as what the mobile version allows)... I must say that the F-104S, while meant to take down Soviet bombers can actually tangle with fighters akin to US Navy F4Js. I tried to keep my speed during turns at the F-104's so-called magic number, as written by Sharkbait and other prominent F-104 veterans, of 400-500IAS. Worked like a charm. The F-104 definitely loses on the instantaneous turn department but is on top when it comes to sustained turns. Also, the 400-500IAS magic number still gives the Zipper enough speed to out-climb opponents, evade a missile if need be, and still have enough speed boost to run should the going get ugly. Now for the Sparrows... as the F-104S is concerned; slow to lock and whenever I fire it, hitting a maneuvering target is pretty much a 50/50 proposition at higher levels of the game... Again, this was done with the mobile version and as most flight-related mobile games are concerned, its more of a turn and burn affair. I would appreciate it if someone would make a Zipper DACT here in SF2 as a comparison. Cheers

@saisran Thanks for the feedback. Much as I'd want (and love) to play the PC version of SF, I have to make do with its mobile version since my work demands me to be pretty much on the go. On the mobile version, the F-104 is one of the least popular planes as it is more difficult to fly and fight in it than most other jets around. Similar to its real-life and in-game reputation if I'm not mistaken. And you're right about the Philippines not being that "flight-sim friendly".

Hello! New guy here. Have you guys tried a DACT with the F-104 (any version) I'm curious to see if what I've read about how experten pilots use it during exercises are true or applicable to SF as well. Unfortunately, the closest that I can get to trying it out myself is through the mobile version of SF (which is not as satisfying or (I daresay) accurate as the PC versions, I'm sure). Things such as keeping the fight vertical, boom and zoom, keeping the speed at 400KIAS, etc. say that the F-104 is a formidable opponent in capable hands contrary to its combat reputation. Would you guys mind taking up the "experiment"?