Down in Flames

[+kendo353]

Hi People..

 

I'm currently in the process of making a ww1 flight sim, and thought i'd pop in and introduce myself.

I'm happy to have found a forum where people can talk about WW1 aviation. there aren't many.

 

(click for bigger)

Here's the planes so far... Player Flyable

Project Homepage :- here

 

I've made good progress, and i'm happy with it, but the project really needs a coder.. i'm an artist by profession, and it's slow going learning coding from the ground up.

 

The BV engine is quite simple to program, if you have any experience, which unfortunately, i don't. Can *you* help? I'm a singleseat indie developer with no money, so unfortunately, i can't pay anything. (best to clear that up, before we start, eh?). The singleplayer game/campaign game will most likely be given away as freeware, because i find the notion of making money from WW1, a bit questionable. I'd also like to run a multiplayer server for it, though that can be bolted on when the singleplayer campaign is finished. If you're interested in helping out, please PM me..

 

Texturing isn't super-duper-high-res-photo-realistic.. because i wanted the game to be playable online,

and to have as many planes on screen as is possible. similarly, thats why i've used OpenGL, as opposed

to DX9/10... because i'd like as many people to play it as possible, on the widest range of machines.

 

cheers...

 

kendo353

[+Dagger]

First of all welcome to Combatace and if you would keep posting your info.The more updates the more we can help get the word of your new sim out.If it's ok I'll be happy to do what ever I can to help get the word out.I'll contact you off line.

[+kendo353]

Thanks for the welcome, Dagger. I'm working on the GUI, and game logic at the moment. the BV engine is still in development too. shaders are on the near horizon, which should help the planes look a little less factory fresh (for those with videocards that support shaders). multiplayer server code has also similarly been promised. everything is unfolding nicely, but maths isn't my forte. that's why i'm doing the rounds, asking for help.

 

I see Thirdwire has a WW1 sim out, and Knights of the Sky is due out in autumn 2007.

soon we'll have many ww1 games... but i'm hoping this game can offer something a

little different. my main focus is on the earliest planes, twoseaters, and squadron ops.

i'm hoping to make the game progress through the whole war.... but everybody else

does Albatros and Fokker DR1's. and that's the type of game i wanted to avoid. can't

compete with the big guy multiperson development teams, but that doesn't lessen my

love for WW1 aviation.

 

feel free to PM me... and if you *could* spread the word, i'd be delighted.

thanks..

[Recon3]

Hi, I'm new here... but not new to WW1 sims.

 

Wow Kendo! Good on ya! It's looking really good!!!

 

With the recently published (Thirdwire), and WIP (Grennadich/OFF Phase2) WW1 sims, I'm happy to see even more of this. It's a very good sign towards maintaining the passion in WW1 aviation.

 

 

cheers,

Recon3

 

btw kendo, Are you doing this on your own, or do you have a team involved?

 

I'd gladly plug webpages too.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Recon3

[+kendo353]

Hi, I'm new here... but not new to WW1 sims.

Hi recon3.... same.

 

With the recently published (Thirdwire), and WIP (Grennadich/OFF Phase2) WW1 sims, I'm happy to see even more of this.

.

nod... there can never be too many.

 

Are you doing this on your own, or do you have a team involved?

i started out on my own, with a view to meeting coders/programmers along the way, but i can't seem to get anybody else interested, so i'm muddling through on my own. people say they like the look of it, and are willing to play it, but nobody wants to roll their sleeves up and get their hands dirty with me, making it. The BV engine uses Angelscript (a C like language), which is more comprehendable than C++, thankfully. The sheer amount of work involved in getting a game off the ground if you're just one person, came as a big shock to the system, but i'm getting there.

 

 

[Mc.Duff222]

Hi Kendo, are you seriously saying that with the amount of work you've already put in on your own to this project i.e. the amount of flyables, terrain graphics, screens showing a possible immersive campaign and that you're not interested in making any money, that no one is interested in snapping your project up or at least getting involved to help it along ?

If this is the case, do you mind if I link this to SIMHQ and a few other sites. It's people like you that keep this thing alive. You probably need to blow your own trumpet a bit more.

If I could think of any way I could help you with this admirable project I would jump at the chance.

Keep plugging away and let's hope people get to know and that something comes of it.

Regards, Mc.Duff

[+kendo353]

do you mind if I link this to SIMHQ and a few other sites.

please do ... feel free, any help or advice would be gratefully received.

I asked over at SWW1SA, but they were all busy working on OFF(2).

 

You probably need to blow your own trumpet a bit more.

i'm new, without a proven track record in game/sim making. there's also three

other WW1 sims out. it's understandable, really.

 

If I could think of any way I could help you with this admirable project I would jump at the chance.

thanks for the offer. will need stresstesters, bughunters, etc.. and suggestions from

interested players... i'm willing to shape the game into what people want to play. biggest thing i've

been reading in the forums, is that people want an immersive campaign which rivals RB3D's. if you

can type data into a list, or look something up in a book, you probably *could* help out.

 

Keep plugging away and let's hope people get to know and that something comes of it.

I will, cheers for the kind words, Mc.Duff.

 

experimental 30km EAW terrain comprised of 256m tiles.

[Chock]

Considering this is, as you say, an amatuer stab at a flight sim, it's looking pretty good and I certainly wish you all the best with it. Unfortunately as I'm an artist too rather than a coder, what I could offer is probably not much help to you, but I can certainly offer you good luck with the project.

I must say that it is nice to see someone having a decent crack at WW1 aviation which concentrates on all the earlier less cliched stuff. The DH2, Gunbus etc might not be as glamourous as the DR1 and the SE5a, but they are certainly no less interesting for that.

If I might also make a suggestion however: I think that your working title of 'Down in Flames', whilst very emotive, seems a touch insensitive, particularly in view of the fact that such a fate was probably most of the young flyers of WW1's greatest dread. There are lots of alternatives which are just as catchy and emotive, but less likely to upset people's sensibilities: Gathering of Eagles, Duel in the Skies, Over the Front, Canvas Falcons, Call to the Skies etc etc.

Even in a simulation, the image of an aircraft on fire with a very visible pilot is a disturbing one. One look at the external view of a burning aircraft going down in O.F.F. or First Eagles is enough to illustrate what an horrific notion it is, and whilst we should not forget that this was indeed the unfortunate fate of many airmen, I suspect that it might cause problems in the 'marketing' of even a freeware title.

Just something to consider anyway. Once again, good luck with the venture.

[+kendo353]

Hi Chock.. thanks for your polite and considered view on the subject. I chose the project's name, for the very reason you mentioned. That it was the flyer's greatest dread. The dilemma whether to bale out, or stay with their machines. To allay your concerns, I'm an ex-serviceman myself, and am trying to approach the subject with the utmost dignity and respect. There is shooting, blowing things up, and the usual "fun stuff", admittedly, but i would like the overriding message to be that people actually did this for real. They flew in rickety canvas planes @ around 100mph, with many of them dieing in training, before they'd even seen an "enemy". Thats the goal of this project, to recreate an oft-neglected portion of WW1. So, I put it to you that there is no other such suitable title which captures the drama and the history of those moments, so well. I say i'm working on a game called "Down in Flames" to my friends, and they instantly know what i'm talking about.

 

If there's widespread objection to this title, of course, i'll change it.

but it's not called this, so that i can shift more units from shelves.

 

if you'd like to help out, any assistance at all would be appreciated.

i'm hoping to sink some serious time into the project over xmas, and

have some form of prototype ready in the new year.

 

happy solstice.

 

ken

[Bandy]

If there's widespread objection to this title, of course, i'll change it.

but it's not called this, so that i can shift more units from shelves.

happy solstice.

 

Hi Ken,

 

Saw your post earlier here, then saw it mentioned over at the Thirdwire forum. As spoken above, nice to see the less popular planes being modeled. That was a completely different war in the air...

 

I do not object to your title on a personal level, although I can sympathesize with those who have flown combat. That said, since you are trying to stir up interest in your one-man-show (thus far) maybe "Down in Flames" ain't such a good title. Just being pragmatic and perhaps a Devil's advocate from a marketing standpoint. Call it by something else just for the working title perhaps?...

 

Just like a previous poster, I am a 3d artist, so I know how to generate the still images you've presented. How close are you to actually getting them into the true acid-test animated and interactive "game mode"?

 

You have a lot of ambition. Best of luck to you and your endeavor.

[+kendo353]

Hi B Sandy,

 

nice to see the less popular planes being modeled.

cheers.. the pre-camouflage linen period is my personal favourite. there are still a number in progress. downside of a one man band is that only one area can be pushed at. figured i had more than enough planes to test things out with, and am concentrating on other areas of the game for the moment.

 

maybe "Down in Flames" ain't such a good title.

by what criteria? isn't a title that grabs people's attention? No disrespect, but I don't want to call it cheezy eagles, or canvas whatevers. I'd like to invoke the feel of the period, in a similar manner to the way Silent Hunter III manages to capture the essence of the U-Boat war. Isn't "Down in Flames" the most evocative title one could think of ? If my goal was to shift units from shelves, fund a yacht, or my socio-anarchic bohemian lifestyle... i could understand your concerns.. it would be wrong.... but my hope for this game is that it'll make people *remember*. and for that, i'll need a memorable title (as well as a game that doesnt suck).

 

I had a ride with a taxi driver recently, who didn't know what a "Sopwith Camel" was.

do you know how sad that makes me?

 

My biggest aim in this venture, is that people think about those airmen more.

I take onboard your concerns, and Chock's too... it's the first time it's been mentioned

since i started the project, everybody else of my acquaintance thought it was a good idea.

I will give it some serious thought. thankyou.

 

I am a 3d artist, so I know how to generate the still images you've presented. How close are you to actually getting them into the true acid-test animated and interactive "game mode"?

smile... are you implying that those shots are posed or pre-rendered? no sir.... they are 100% genuine actual in-game, me-flying-the-plane screen shots. i would not waste people's time with anything less. i have a workable arcade flying model on the objects, but obviously still need to tweak it a great deal more. as mentioned, i'm working towards a prototype that people can play with and make suggestions on.

 

 

regards

ken

[+kendo353]

campaign selection screen.. (can play any game you've saved).

single mission screen.. (picks a random nation and mission).

also completed medals for all nations.. (arrrghhhh... 3 days).

[

obligatory gratutitous shot of an in-game aeroplane..

 

thanks to everybody who's offered to help with the research.

will be in touch in the new year.

 

cheers..

kendo

[Bandy]

Sorry I didn't keep up with the thread kendo, and certainly didn't mean to offend if I did (though I see a smile there), I had hoped that was obvious. Nice work...

[Guest IndioBlack]

DOWN IN FLAMES - great title. Has incredible resonance. Don't let anyone persuade you otherwise.

[+Gr.Viper]

The only problem is that there already is a 'Down in Flames'... but it's a PC version of a card game, and it is about WWII.. still it's 'planes and combat' theme

http://www.battlefront.com/products/dif/index.html

By the way, try it if you find it. The graphics are next to none, rules are quite simple and there isn't much action but somehow the game gives the feel of air combat... sounds crazy, but it does

[Guest IndioBlack]

The only problem is that there already is a 'Down in Flames'... but it's a PC version of a card game, and it is about WWII..

 

Well, that's a different argument.

I was responding to the suggestion that the title might be not be marketable. I felt it was.

Although naturally, the first magazine review by one of the three-year-olds who call Flight-simmers propeller-heads would start: "Down in Flames is just how the distributor of this Flight Sim is going to go ..." no matter how brilliant the Simulator is.

I guess you always have to plan ahead for the child point-of view. I plan ahead by not buying Computer magazines, and ignoring reviewers.

 

Anyway - they chose it for a card game, so it's a proven winner.

[+Gr.Viper]

I plan ahead by not buying Computer magazines, and ignoring reviewers.

Hey! I've just spent the whole day with the editor correcting my review of First Eagles for a Russian game magazine. My first review ever... Had to cut the original text from 10500 to 7900 characters :cray: to fit into two pages.

 

Anyway, it is not the name that matters... I know a number of freeware games which have horrible names but have very good community of modders, testers and players even at beta stages. It is the content that makes the difference between trash and good stuff. Name can be changed - the soul of the game can't.

Edited December 29, 2006 by Gr.Viper

[+kendo353]

Hi guys... thanks for the interesting discussion and points of view.

thanks also to the artists and researchers who have offered to help.

 

"Down in Flames is just how the distributor of this Flight Sim is going to go ..."

It might be niave, but after years in the recording business, i've no wish to "market"

this game/sim. or deal with people in suits. or give away 50% of the profit. and generally

stress myself out. i've seen my stuff on shelves, and had reviews in magazines. to be

honest, it wasn't that thrilling.

 

I started this project out of love, and i'll finish it with love.

if it's just a free download from a website, i'm fine with that.

at least it's honest. people who like WW1 aviation will want to

check it out. which is also fine.

 

 

RakNet (multiplayer) support has been promised, and

a new improved AI, which will support formation flying.

 

all is going well.

 

Edited December 29, 2006 by kendo353

[+kendo353]

By the way, try it if you find it. The graphics are next to none, rules are quite simple and there isn't much action but somehow the game gives the feel of air combat... sounds crazy, but it does

Hi Viper... thanks for the info, but i don't enjoy WW2 fighter games much.

The first WW1 game i played was "Ace of Aces". Before computers... lol.

(so i can and do appreciate a good game mechanism). I gave my copy

away, but it's good to see that it's still going, and has a collector following.

 

 

there already is a 'Down in Flames'

I see from the author's website that he was originally going to make his DIF a WW1 game?

but chose not to. fair enough, but it reminds me of Hermann Goerring's advice to the Luftwaffe...

 

"make sure they go down in flames".

 

ie: it's not really a name or tactic, appropriate for that period of history, imho.

 

 

anyway.....

happy new year, everyone.

[Bandy]

The first WW1 game i played was "Ace of Aces". Before computers... lol.

 

I still have my copy of AoA in a safe place!!! I had no idea it was collectable, what's it go for? Used to play it in the car with my brother ad friends on long trips (we we're driving). Funny.

 

Again, best of luck in your endeavor. I don't know much about game engines, etc. but I can 3D model and use PS. Also, I have access to THE BEST library on aviation likely anywhere (hundreds of titles on WW1 alone), so if you need a particular manuscript, chances are I could find it. And I'm not blowing hot air here, I'd like to help, tho I only have so many hours at lunch

[+kendo353]

I still have my copy of AoA in a safe place!!! I had no idea it was collectable, what's it go for?

depends which version you have, but definitely more than you paid for it. i've seen *some* go for $200. here's one, for instance..

 

AoA on ebay

 

I don't know much about game engines, etc. but I can 3D model and use PS.

if you can model and use PS, you would probably be right at home. at it's best it functions

like an extension of the modelling program. which modeller do you use? BV can handle

maya .MB, lightwave .LWO/.LWS, and 3ds .3DS natively. oh.. milkshape .ms3d, too. if

you have the time/inclination, you could grab a free trial version and check it out.

 

on the model tip... *whatever* you wish/care to provide would be gratefully recieved.

i try to keep the plane list updated with the new models, but there are still a few gaps,

especially with the earlier German variants. i have 'twenty odd' ground targets... but

you can never have too many.. i have a few tanks knocking about, but haven't really

thought about moving ground units yet. been concentrating on the flying and bombing.

i also have a railway, but no trains to run on it.. lol.. any form of modelling help would

be appreciated.

 

Also, I have access to THE BEST library on aviation likely anywhere (hundreds of titles on WW1 alone), so if you need a particular manuscript, chances are I could find it.

that sounds extremely useful, and i appreciate the offer.

 

And I'm not blowing hot air here, I'd like to help, tho I only have so many hours at lunch

thanks very much. it's a kind and generous offer. one thing my trawlings on the net have failed to turn up, is a good source of insignia for the Jastas and Esquadrilles. is there such a thing? i've seen the designs that come with the (excellent) RB3D modpacks, but have no idea if that is historically accurate or just good art. I found most of the RFC, on the RAF site. but not much luck with the other nations.

 

 

cheers..

ken

[agrippa]

I'm sorry to say I can't really help make the game, but if you needs someone to test fly this thing I'll volunteer.

 

You mentioned that although you plan on making the game progress through the whole war, you wanted to do something a little different. I can't tell this from the page of planes on your site (I know far less about WWI aviation than I'd like), have you considered including campaigns on the Italian or Eastern Front? Perhaps less exciting and less known than the Western Front, but that too is something that "everyone else" is doing. Just a thought.

[+kendo353]

Hi Agrippa,

 

have you considered including campaigns on the Italian or Eastern Front?

yes, i have..... but i hate snow, and i'm careful not to wander off of the plan too far.

The way the game is constructed, if i do get any help, it should be easy enough to bolt on additional campaigns, once the core is fully functional. Before then, i risk bloating the project, and losing focus.

 

Perhaps less exciting and less known than the Western Front, but that too is something that "everyone else" is doing.

I agree, it's an oft-neglected area of the conflict. Similarly, Palestine & Gallipoli. TBH, the Italian and Eastern campaigns are beyond my current learning, and i don't have any books on the subject. I consider it best to concentrate on what i do know, and make that as accurate as possible. If somebody with this knowledge wishes to join the project and help out, i'd be delighted to welcome them onboard.

 

 

cheers..

ken

[+kendo353]

Historical advice, anybody?

 

 

Were balloons used as blimps in WW1 ?

I can't seem to find any photographs of unmanned inflatables,

and i don't recall seeing them in a WW1 game... ever.

 

It would be a shame to lose them, as they add a lot to the scenery

and atmosphere. but if they're not historically accurate, they'll have

to go. anyone know?

 

regards

kendo

[Red Von Hammer]

I seem to recall in the movie Flyboys, that they mentioned 3 sides being protected by balloons.

But I don`t wanna say for certain it`s historically correct..

 

You could just not include unmanned balloons for the moment, and add them later on in a patch

or something.

 

 

Salute!

 

RVH