Down in Flames

[catch]

i've been reading on the other boards here, that people are suspicious of one person attempting to put out a game all on their own.

there is also the suggestion (made above), that people are staying away because they don't like the name of the game.

 

i have to balance this project with a career in music to pay my bills, but every spare moment of the day goes into improving gameplay,

modelling, or coding. it would be very nice to have some help, but if it's not forthcoming, i'm quite resigned to completing everything that

needs doing myself. people saying "it can't be done", is the spur and impetus.... to get it done.

 

Jay Balakrishnan (Sierra/Dynamix...the man who released RB3D) likes the look of the sim.

he said the lack of help is the universe testing my persistence, resolve, and strength of will.

most days, i am up til 5-6am working on some part of the game.

so nobody can say "he's not serious".

 

 

regards to all.

 

Well Kendo after seeing what you've achieved so far by yourself is very impressive. TW is virtually a one man operation so I fail to understand why some would be suspicious of your one man show. And if people stay away because, as you suggest, they don't like the name that is their prerogative but also their loss.

 

I can only support you with encouragement as I don't have any skills in skinning, modding, artistry, coding etc but I have a great passion for WW1 aviation (well anything to do with the early years of aviation really). And to have Jay's support is high praise indeed for what you have achieved to date. Stick at it and keep your vision intact regardless of what people may say.

 

A musician with a passion for WW1 aviation. Sounds like a good mix to me. I'm envious. What type of music/instruments ? Do you write music ?

 

cheers,

catch.

[+kendo353]

I fail to understand why some would be suspicious of your one man show.

oh, any one man show, Catch. making a flight sim is a phonomenal amount of work for just one person, and i can understand people's wariness & scepticism.

i was reading up on a game called "Jet Thunder". he's been at it for 2.5 years, and faced many of the same issues. i also know of 2 other WW1 projects that looked

promising, but folded.

 

I can only support you with encouragement

cheers Catch... it's appreciated. people have been very friendly, supportive, and helpful with historical data.

i appreciate WW1 aviation is "a niche within a niche" (as TK put it), and programmers within that niche, are

going to be few and far between.

 

What type of music/instruments ?

discography ('im the bloke in the middle). fwiw, i envy people that can hold down a steady job, and pay their bills.

 

 

regards to all.

 

[Lord Flasheart]

This looks like a great project Kendo, and I hope you get all the help and support you want and need for it.

 

Looks like it captures some of the spirit of that old Microprose classic "Knights of the Sky."

[+kendo353]

I hope you get all the help and support you want and need for it.

cheers Flash. one person did offer to help, but he just helped himself to my models, and doesn't respond to emails. lol..

on the other hand, support from historians, and people who want to play it has been fantastic, and i'm very grateful.

 

Looks like it captures some of the spirit of that old Microprose classic "Knights of the Sky."

I love the style of the 'classic' games. despite their bugs & flaws, they had gameplay by the bucketload.

over the last few days i've added a variant of the RB3D "Pilot Personality Profile" system (by Bluevoss & JG1Beck), so that your

squadmates won't be cardboard cutouts, and will have a bit more life about them. squadrons also have varying types of accomodation

(from leaky tents to a chateau) which impacts upon their morale.

 

[+Gr.Viper]

squadrons also have varying types of accomodation

(from leaky tents to a chateau) which impacts upon their morale.

So, we'll have Flying Circus? And the huge manor like the one in The Blue Max? Any girls missing the door to increase morale, by chance?

[+kendo353]

So, we'll have Flying Circus?

It's a nice thought, and i'd love to tackle it, but it's too ambitious for

one person to accomplish. MVR is probably best left to the commercial

design teams. I can definitely do canvas dromes, and have planes

decamped on trains and lorries. but probably not "the whole of the flying circus".

 

 

And the huge manor like the one in The Blue Max?

bigger. with ornamental gardens, and a maze.

[catch]

Ken, I'm liking this concept of yours more and more. I missed out on the legendary RB3D days so I can't comment on the pros and cons of that game and any similarity between it and your concept. But if I've got what you're saying right about added gameplay .... do you mean you will identify with and care more about your character as opposed to a "cardboard cutout" character ? WW1 flight sims are great fun and my particular passion ... but sometimes, rather than flying again straightaway in a new mission time and time again, it'd be nice to have some "downtime" or "stress relief" and actually waltz into the mess and play darts or have a beer or even catch a lift into town to the local bordello ! I don't mean actually doing that as it's probably too complex but a simulation of those things to break things up a bit. Something to round out your character rather than him just being a flying superman. Is that what you mean ? There was a game touted a few years back (battlestations or something) which I think combined flightsimming with RPG/FPS where you supposedly could fly a plane and then transfer to captain a ship or man the ships guns. I've always like that concept because if you tired of one genre you couild slip into another .... but it must be pretty complex to achieve quality in all genres! And I don't know if it ever got released ?

 

Now get out and make some more cold hard cash with your dance / techno music (don't know much about it to be honest as I'm one of those prehistoric dinosaurs who grew up on the 60's/70's stuff) so you can fund your true love (no, not her ..... the WW1 game man).

 

All the best.

catch.

Edited February 20, 2007 by catch

[+kendo353]

Hi Catch..

do you mean you will identify with and care more about your character as opposed to a "cardboard cutout" character ?

I hope so, yes. Your squadmates, too.

 

it'd be nice to have some "downtime" or "stress relief" and actually waltz into the mess and play darts or have a beer or even catch a lift into town to the local bordello ! Something to round out your character rather than him just being a flying superman. Is that what you mean ?

Thats exactly it. So far, there are 45 different personality types. You know your type, but you don't know the type of your squadmates. (unless one hates you on sight). Here is the link, so you can peruse at your leisure... it's a nice system... based on dice rolls and tables (familiar territory). Pilot Personality Profile

 

you supposedly could fly a plane and then transfer to captain a ship or man the ships guns. I've always like that concept because if you tired of one genre you couild slip into another ....

Sounds like Enigma:Rising Tide? I think it had subs, too. Some designers succumb to the temptation to put "a little bit of everything" into the game, so that they'll

appeal to the broadest amount of people. but imho, that can water down the central theme if it's not done well. As discussed previously, if you're downed behind the lines, you should be able to steal a vehicle and drive home (if you're not maimed/injured/captured). or man an AA gun, and fend off hostiles attacking your drome,

but i don't want to make the game completely like BF42. I'd rather stay focussed on the campaign/missions.

 

I'm one of those prehistoric dinosaurs who grew up on the 60's/70's stuff)

no worries, Catch.... i'm an old punk with a hendrix/doors/beatles/who/floyd collection.

you don't need to understand music to enjoy it. which i hope you do.

 

all the best.

[catch]

Now THAT sounds really cool Ken ! Music ? .... I love all types .... well except C&W, 70's Disco and Rap. Love the blues. Regarding Hendrix, one of his best pieces imo is an instrumental called "Palli Gap" .... think it's off Rainbow Bridge. If you've never heard it I can recommend it. Probably be able to mix it up a bit dance music style too .... I reckon it'd work although Jimmy may not approve !

 

cheers

catch.

[catch]

Sounds like Enigma:Rising Tide? I think it had subs, too. Some designers succumb to the temptation to put "a little bit of everything" into the game, so that they'll

appeal to the broadest amount of people.

 

Just browsing at EB and coincidentally saw it. It's called Battlestations: Midway. Combines flight sim with ship/sub sim and RPG/tactical. Don't know how good the flight dynamics are as that's very important to me and I'd hazard a guess it's pretty arcadish. But the box says it's really good lol.

[+kendo353]

It's called Battlestations: Midway.

ah, yes. it's TV advertised now too. big spend. the game looks fast paced and furious,

and the visuals have come a long way in six months.

[Lord Flasheart]

Love the idea of a manor or forward air base where you can "hang out" with your squadmates. Are you building that in, Kendo? Remember the "hangar" in the old "Wing Commander" games where you could pick up gossip from other pilots, play "video games," etc?

 

Christopher Plummer playing the piano in the RFC base like in "Aces High?"

[+kendo353]

Love the idea of a manor or forward air base where you can "hang out" with your squadmates. Are you building that in, Kendo?

the engine supports character animation, lip-sync, conversation triggers, and all the stuff you would need.

but games with the complexity of Silent Hunter III (for instance) require a large multi-person design team.

character modelling & animation is an artform in itself, and building a dozen characters for six different

nationalities is beyond my capabilities.

 

the NPC pilots personalities will shape the gameplay in some fashion, and you'll get reports like

"You joined Lt. Plummer in the bar, where he was drunk and playing the piano badly." (which will

endear him to you, and improve morale). but no hollywood style machanima (yet)... sorry.

 

I built a pilots office as a test...

but mostly the camera is inside the plane you're flying, as opposed to the first person perspective.

(which you'll only see if you crash, and have to leg it).

 

Taube of the Day

 

[catch]

Cool Taube Ken. I'm glad you're including a/c from the early years. I like your pilot personality idea. That'll go really well with the classic sardonic British humour and biting wit that I presume you'll employ ? Good lad. And remember it takes a good drunk to play the piano badly.

[+kendo353]

Cool Taube Ken. I'm glad you're including a/c from the early years.

cheers, Catch.. even though it was used as a weapon of war, i think the Taube was

one of the most stunningly beautiful designs that has ever graced a drawing board.

I would love to see one in flight, if any still exist anywhere.

 

Nieuport N4

 

how do you feel about arming pilots with only with their service revolvers ?

or would that be one step too far? the chances of bringing down a plane with

a pistol seem a bit remote... but i suppose you may get lucky and hit some

vital part (like the pilots head or the propellor).

 

reason i ask, is that, as you know.. many of these early planes were before

the syncronising interruptor gear was invented, and i'd be interested in hearing

your opinion. i could just "bung a gun on the front" for the sake of a good game,

or i could arm the pilots with a pistol, and a couple of hand held bombs like their

historical counterparts. what do you think? I suppose this is why they rarely

appear in other games.

[catch]

I agree Ken .... the taube was a magnificent creation. And this is but one aspect that fascinates me about the early pioneering days of aviation imo .... more so than later aviation era's .... but that's just me. I'm sure I've seen a video of a replica in flight somewhere but where I couldn't tell you.

 

And another early one ..... the N4 ! I admit I had to google it as I'd never heard of it ! Nice. Very nice.

 

I like your concept of including the very early planes because it is an area that is sadly over-looked in many WW1 flight sims in favour of the more popular and romanticised later models. Not that there's anything wrong with that of course but a bit of balance would be nice. As for handguns and hand held bombs I'd welcome that proposal because that's exactly what they did before the thought of bolting MG's onto the wing or fuselage became reality.

And it sounds like fun anyway to take potshots with a handgun at another plane in flight. Certainly adds another element that's for sure. I wonder if that has been explored in any other flight sims ?

 

Now how are you preparing your flight modelling for the early planes ? FM is the most important part of any flight sim imo and I think (I could be wrong though ?) that the slower the plane the harder it is to get the FM right. Are you getting any help professional or otherwise ?

 

Cheers,

catch.

[+kendo353]

As for handguns and hand held bombs I'd welcome that proposal because that's exactly what they did before the thought of bolting MG's onto the wing or fuselage became reality. And it sounds like fun anyway to take potshots with a handgun at another plane in flight.

is it true that when MVR was an observer, he carried a shotgun?

it would need balancing, because if you score a headshot every time it would be dull.

similarly, if everything is whizzing by so fast that you can't even get a shot off, it would be frustrating.

 

Now how are you preparing your flight modelling for the early planes ?

I've been using the JSBsim "Aeromatic" utiility to build up the plane data, but it hasn't yet been plumbed into the game yet.

everything is "twist and go", "one size fits all" style. I'm hoping to meet or employ a programmer who can port JSBsim over

to Angelscript, or write a homebrew system using the Aeromatic data. (the project is non profit making so we shouldn't fall

foul of any licensing agreements).

 

i've read up on, and understand the principles of flight, but experiments with the equations and maths are sucking up too much time

from the other areas of the game. as you say, the flight model is very important, and it can make or break a game, but its also only

one component out of the game as a whole. no panic.

 

[GabiLaser]

I've been using the JSBsim "Aeromatic" utiility to build up the plane data, but it hasn't yet been plumbed into the game yet.

everything is "twist and go", "one size fits all" style. I'm hoping to meet or employ a programmer who can port JSBsim over

to Angelscript, or write a homebrew system using the Aeromatic data. (the project is non profit making so we shouldn't fall

foul of any licensing agreements).

 

 

 

Hmm, another approach could be i think ( i don't know Angelscript, so i'm speculating here) to make a wrapper for JSBsim that can be called from Angelscript. Something similar with using an ActiveX from VisualBasic scripts. Could you ask the engine developers if it is possible to do something like that? If so, i offer to help you for that, but at a very slow pace.

 

Regards

[+kendo353]

Hi GabiLaser,

 

a wrapper for JSBsim that can be called from Angelscript.

i've tried to avoid having JSBsim running as an independent process, because i wanted to wrap everything up neatly in one executable with

less system overhead. but you're right... a wrapper is a viable alternative, which could be up and running fairly quickly. BV doesnt support

.XML natively, but the plane's historical/Aeromatic data can be read in from the models .cfg files.

 

presumably, JSBsim will return its output back to the player's client... rather than the plane's .XML file ?

if that is the case then it could work fairly easily. if JSB wants to mess with the .XML file, the updated data

would have to be read in and converted, which might lead to some disc thrashing or slowdown? (im not sure

because i haven't tried it yet). i figured porting it would be the best solution, because then i wouldn't have to

mess with .XML files at all. but thats a big old job for anybody, even if they do have the programming skills.

 

Could you ask the engine developers if it is possible to do something like that?

yes, it is. somebody recently wrote an FX wrapper class. and there is a simple template example

that will send text strings to and from a server/port. coding a wrapper is beyond my skill level

though, and if you could help in any way, it would be much appreciated.

 

thanks for the suggestion.

 

ken

[GabiLaser]

... i've tried to avoid having JSBsim running as an independent process, because i wanted to wrap everything up neatly in one executable with

less system overhead. ...

 

I don't think it must necessarily run as a different process. JSBsim is open-source, i'm thinking something along this lines: have the functions compiled together (in a .dll file?) in such a format that they can be called from the script, so it would run in the same process with the game. So i'm not thinking of using directly the JSBsim executable, but wrap its high-level functions (maybe it's just one?) so that it does the same things as the exe does, but called from the script. Hope i make sense.

 

S!

[+kendo353]

Hi GabiLaser..

 

have the functions compiled together (in a .dll file?) in such a format that they can be called from the script

unfortunately, BV doesn't support .DLLs yet (promised feature on the "forthcoming" list).

 

i'm not thinking of using directly the JSBsim executable

ah... i see. Angelscript has no *pointer usage, so i will have to port the code or use the JSB.exe

unless there is a more elegant solution than JSBsim that you know of?

 

Hope i make sense.

it does. thanks for explaining this.

it's my first game, and theres a lot to learn.

[GabiLaser]

Hi GabiLaser..

 

 

unfortunately, BV doesn't support .DLLs yet (promised feature on the "forthcoming" list).

 

ah... i see. Angelscript has no *pointer usage, so i will have to port the code or use the JSB.exe

unless there is a more elegant solution than JSBsim that you know of?

 

 

it does. thanks for explaining this.

it's my first game, and theres a lot to learn.

 

If there is no form of integrating compiled functions (.dlls or other special compiled code forms), it would be a long process to port JSBsim's source code to another language, scripted or not ... not feasable imho. If, otoh, there is some form of integration, i could use the source code of JSBsim to create some special high-level functions to be exported and usable from the game's script; compiled functions that would do what the exe does, but called from inside the game. I could look at the game engine documentation (features, scripting) a little, could you pls repost the relevant links?

[+kendo353]

it would be a long process to port JSBsim's source code to another language, scripted or not ... not feasable imho.

sure, i appreciate that. i thought it was better to try and port code that was known to work,

than start to write my own bug-ridden mess. i knew it wouldn't be easy, or particularly quick.

 

I could look at the game engine documentation (features, scripting) a little, could you pls repost the relevant links?

sure... the whole game is built from Angelscript files.

these are the functions i can use to talk to the engine.. BV functions

the Angelscript site... here

the BV features page... here

 

thanks, GabiLaser.

Edited February 24, 2007 by kendo353

[GabiLaser]

Ok, i've asked at the Angelscript forum:

 

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/to...topic_id=436917

 

... and it shows that the script can't load dlls. But, if the game engine will allow external dll loading in the future as you say, it can be done in this manner:

 

- game engine loads external dll(s)

- when modified JSBsim dll is loaded, the initialization function of this dll registers all needed dll functions to be used from angelscript

- in angelscript scripts, you can call the above registered JSBsim functions

 

For the makers of the game engine is VERY easy to add support for external dll loading. They should just read all dll names from a designated directory and use LoadLibary(dll_path) function call to load them.

Edited February 24, 2007 by GabiLaser

[+kendo353]

if the game engine will allow external dll loading in the future as you say, it can be done in this manner:

 

- game engine loads external dll(s)

- when modified JSBsim dll is loaded, the initialization function of this dll registers all needed dll functions to be used from angelscript

- in angelscript scripts, you can call the above registered JSBsim functions

i've just hassled them about it again.

there is a new release due after GDC, and i'm hoping it will be in there.

 

this method sounds achievable. so I'll continue using Aeromatic data for the planes.

the engine is already reading that stuff in, it's just not being sent anywhere.

 

thanks for your time and trouble, GabiLaser.

much appreciated.