AI MOD version 3 beta..

[+Tailspin 3]

the answer to those questions are ---at the moment---"i have absolutely NO IDEA!!!" it's just a hunch.....but just as in the real world during WW1 just about EVERY trick in the book was tried to improve the real world situation for the aircraft and most of those would sound perfectly crazy and indeed LOOKED perfectly crazy.....BUT every single one of those attempts brought the situation one step closer to something that was use-full.....(strapping a hunk of metal on the propellor to deflect the bullets from a forward firing machine gun!!...now if someone suggested doing that in a sim there'd be crys of CHEAT and the poor guy would be driven from the place with a barrage of contempt etc ..we've all seen it done a hundred times ) for the time being i'm content to stick with my hunch....following just such a hunch got fully functioning changing weather with real world accurate weather reports both dynamic and editable working in Silent Hunter II...and yes i got the same story there.....so no i don't care any-more...it's a hunch it may come to something it may not it's not worth getting over exicited about..i'll let you know of course ..if anything GOOD comes out of it..i'll allso let you know if it does not...fair???)

 

meantime you can take the mickey all you like...

many thanks EZ glad to hear there's some spin off's from this stuff going one

 

Sorry, I'm not too familiar with English slang. Do you mean to say you think I'm making fun of you? You stated a position regarding aircraft data.inis that I'm not sure I agree with. I gave reasonable and verifiable examples of why. I am just curious as to what it is you think and why and if you can show me something concrete to explain it. A free exchange of ideas is all I'm interested in. Exchanging ideas is not always going to end in agreement. That seems to be bothering you.

[+bortdafarm 1]

Sorry, I'm not too familiar with English slang. Do you mean to say you think I'm making fun of you? You stated a position regarding aircraft data.inis that I'm not sure I agree with. I gave reasonable and verifiable examples of why. I am just curious as to what it is you think and why and if you can show me something concrete to explain it. A free exchange of ideas is all I'm interested in. Exchanging ideas is not always going to end in agreement. That seems to be bothering you.

 

 

it's a H_U_N_C_H

 

i don't have to explain hunchs...to any body....please for gawd's sake let's not get into one of those typicaly anal sim arguments...you know the ones....the one's which put people off and are completely barmy from top to toe...it's not that sort of thread ....hang on a minute your the moderator....stop it!!!

[+Tailspin 3]

Now you're just over reacting. One reason I questioned your original assumption that putting aircraft data.inis in the Objects folder will work is it is simply wrong. If you move your aircraft data.ini to the Objects folder it won't work...or at least a LOT of the changes you think you are getting won't be there. Further, being a moderator doesn't preclude me from participating in threads. I'm not baiting you. I'm just asking for clarification. The rest is just misundertanding on your part. I can't help that. Sorry you feel that way.

[+bortdafarm 1]

can't disagree with the fact that placing the "data inis in the aircraft's folder works

can't agree with the assumption that placing the "data inis in the object folder does not work

why? because the stock information is stored in a cat file in exactly the same folder...

and because i'm having a "modders" hunch

 

fun or what!!!

 

whilst it's perfectly obviuos from trying that most changes made to an "data ini in the root folder does nothing

i'm not comvinced that all changes made to an individual aircraft ini in the root folder do nothing at all

there's something subtle going on with the game , as other data inis work perfectly when left in the root folder

i'm betting that certain sections of the inis are read from different locations...placing it in the root folder may allow some additional information to be added to the ini which would not be read or read differently if the ini was located in the aircraft folders...not saying i'm right about this..it's just that i have had this with other games and ...against all eveidence to the contrary i'm usualy right!! (gulp)

anyhuw dun wanna get into one of those "sim" like technocratic issues as were still fishing for answers and trying to get a feel for the game

 

for most edits yup the ini has to go in the aircraft's folder

[Gr.Viper 131]

There is a perfectly simple and visual way of finding out, where the aircraft DATA.ini is loaded and if in both folders, which overrides the other. Just use the Exhaust smoke mod for Fokker or Albatross and play with placing the clear and modded ini file wherever you want. If Albatross and/or Fokker D.VII trail smoke - mod ini is loaded. Though it might not help if the game is able to load only parts of ini...

 

 

anyhuw here's the files (yes they go into the aircraft folder he he!!)

I see that you added some wood armor to the pilot (looks like poor guy is already in a coffin) and to the whole fuselage. Is it possible to armor plate engine separately? I can't find any entry that would describe its location apart from being a subsystem of fuselage :(

 

My idea of a good kill is exactly this..

http://www.richthofen.com/arcdocs/richt_08.htm

When I arrived I discovered that my assumption had been correct. I had shot the engine to pieces and both the pilot and observer were severely wounded. The observer died at once and the pilot while being transported to the nearest dressing station.

[+bortdafarm 1]

I see that you added some wood armor to the pilot (looks like poor guy is already in a coffin) and to the whole fuselage. Is it possible to armor plate engine separately? I can't find any entry that would describe its location apart from being a subsystem of fuselage :(

 

 

the funny thing about the damage model for the aircraft is the the fokkerd7f and Spad have a different system for modelling the engine damage than the others...

 

the se5a, fokkerd7 and the albatros have a seperate NOSE section modelled which when destroyed takes the engine with it....the spad and D7 have the engine linked to the fueselage...which means in the very quickly made test version i had to add the armour to the fuselage section for these two...look in the se5a D7and albatros and you'l see that i was able to armour the engine as a unique and seperate unit..and gave it steel armour beacause it only affected the engine...nothing else is linked to the nose...but had to give wood armour to the d7f and spad because a whole lot of other systems are linked to the fueselage along with the engine so it had to toned down a little to compensate...i did make a quick attempt at shifting the engine out of the fuselage section and placing it else where but it resulted in a dead engine at mission start up..so decide for the sake of a test it was easier just to try the thing out with the entire fuselage given a basic wood armour

 

there's probably a more sophisticated way to do it but i didn't have the time to go thru a full test of all the possible connentations especaily when it was just a test of a basic concept.

 

you'll notice that the armour is not total

 

HasArmor=TRUE

ArmorMaterial=WOOD

ArmorFRONT.Thickness=36

ArmorREAR.Thickness=36

ArmorLEFT.Thickness=36

ArmorRIGHT.Thickness=36

 

 

(brackets removed )

there is no armour assigned to the top or the bottom

so a deflection shot from above or underneath should not meet with any greater resistance than stock

 

same with the steel armour on the seperate nose section of the se5a D7 and albatros

 

this IMO is avery interesting feature of the armour system that could be exploited to create some very dynamic and complex armour and damage set ups for the aircraft..meaning shots from different angle would do more damage than shots from other angles..which on a canvas covered ww1 plane might be used to model the fact that a heck of a lot of bullets will pass straight thru the canvas and do no more lethal damage than to rip small holes...the actual amount of structure in a ww1 wing is probably only 10 percent of the total area (i've built a few flying models of ww1 aircraft using traditional building techniques and it's pretty much just spars and wing ribs..with large areas of nothing imbetween the whole thing being held together and given it's structural strength and areodynamic capabilites by the heavily doped canvas covering )

so i can see that a very dynamic damage model could be worked up for them (as long as these entrys for the armour are working as implied by the entrys and are apllicable to the aircraft (rather than just the ground objects )

[Gr.Viper 131]

Yep, I noticed that armor has values for all sides... It might be reasonable to increase it for top and bottom of wings(but not tips) and stabs, sides of rudder and the whole tail. Though it seems to me that only player would be crazy enough to fire from such angles (I do!) :) AIs prefer to stab in the back.. or blow you to pieces with flak.

 

By the way once I was downed in a very nice way. I've hit the engine of a two seater - it landed safely. Then I was just fooling around and flew low above it. There was a short burst from the gunner and my plane went on without me. But it glided safely by itself to the ground and stopped. I was then "Wounded and hospitalized" though I landed in the enemy territory. Actually I've never got POW status

 

I just tried to add machine gun "turret" to balloon.. didn't work(well the game just gave me the wrong balloon type). But if it does it might be funny... Balloons hang everywhere. If you give them armor, a weapon and place them closer to each other and to the ground... a nice suicide mission...

[+bortdafarm 1]

Yep, I noticed that armor has values for all sides... It might be reasonable to increase it for top and bottom of wings(but not tips) and stabs, sides of rudder and the whole tail. Though it seems to me that only player would be crazy enough to fire from such angles (I do!) :) AIs prefer to stab in the back.. or blow you to pieces with flak.

 

By the way once I was downed in a very nice way. I've hit the engine of a two seater - it landed safely. Then I was just fooling around and flew low above it. There was a short burst from the gunner and my plane went on without me. But it glided safely by itself to the ground and stopped. I was then "Wounded and hospitalized" though I landed in the enemy territory. Actually I've never got POW status

 

I just tried to add machine gun "turret" to balloon.. didn't work(well the game just gave me the wrong balloon type). But if it does it might be funny... Balloons hang everywhere. If you give them armor, a weapon and place them closer to each other and to the ground... a nice suicide mission...

yes on the armour i just did a perfunctory job on it for testing...plenty to mess about with!!

me too..i usually go for the deflection shot in a turning fight..fire slightly ahead of him and let him fly into the bullets and hope the guns don't jam...wish we could teach the AI that one...ya can't miss..!

as some one mentioned (can't remeber who sorry)one of the most challenging ways to play the campaign is to fly the albatros..i just downloaded the excellent cockpit here in the DL section (brilliant stuff) so i thought i'd suss how to enable the albatros...that and Jokers excellent new campaigns ..which let you fly the albatros from Jasta 60 etc....he he!! second patrol was a recon over a some destroyed buildings (very nice touch that Joker!!! some thing to recon!) we got bounced by i don't know how many spads....lost the squad..but all landed on friendly turf so the were ok and i imagine got lifts home as they were ok on the roster board (one wounded) at the start on the next mission..(i hope that's at least in part due to the armoured pilot and engine mod..???anyway ) i ended up trying to get a spad...managed one..but then another wing of them turned up (or the original one had left and come back again lol!).and it was no good at all can't out turn or out run the spad in the Alb'..can out climb it if you've got a head start but not on equal terms..

so i headed for home at tree top level (an old red baron trick lol) the AI is allways a little bit cautiuos about firing on you if your at tree top hieght....headed for some obs balloons (or in red baron valence..observation bal-----ooooons!) and they opened up with flak on the spads. three of them ...but they persisted so i just landed in a field and got a lift home like the rest of the squadron...damn sensible chaps...

 

yep the Alb' is the way to go for decent dog-fights against the AI...

if the AI keep surviving the way they have done (haven't lost a pilot yet and they have beeen out numbered two to one each time in some serious scraps) then things might be going in the right direction....

[+Tailspin 3]

There is a perfectly simple and visual way of finding out, where the aircraft DATA.ini is loaded and if in both folders, which overrides the other. Just use the Exhaust smoke mod for Fokker or Albatross and play with placing the clear and modded ini file wherever you want. If Albatross and/or Fokker D.VII trail smoke - mod ini is loaded. Though it might not help if the game is able to load only parts of ini...

 

Good idea. Doesn't work.

[+bortdafarm 1]

Good idea. Doesn't work.

 

 

 

i am just going to have to ignore you aren't I

[+Tailspin 3]

i am just going to have to ignore you aren't I

 

bortdafarm...I happen to be intriqued by your idea. Do you care if I test it for myself? I'm OK with you wanting to keep your ideas to yourself for the time being but I'm going to try some different ideas on my own. Perhaps if it irritates you so much you should ignore it. However, if you think I'm in the wrong or somehow abusing my Moderator status then feel free to report it to the site Administrators.

[+bortdafarm 1]

bortdafarm...I happen to be intriqued by your idea. Do you care if I test it for myself? I'm OK with you wanting to keep your ideas to yourself for the time being but I'm going to try some different ideas on my own. Perhaps if it irritates you so much you should ignore it. However, if you think I'm in the wrong or somehow abusing my Moderator status then feel free to report it to the site Administrators.

 

not at all!! the issue is there is nothing to test!!! it's just a feeling..i haven't done anything with it ..it's just filed away for future reference....i am absolutely convinced that in some way the idea will have some relevance even if in a differnet context and with different files....it's just a feeling brought about byt the way the campaig engine takes entrys added or altered in one aircraft's data in and applies it in some cases to all the other aircraft and alterations to one suadrons experinece level in the camp_data ini is given to all the squadrons in spite of the fact that those other squadrons experinece remains as stock in the ini....so in fact there is a tendency for the game to actually extraopolate entrys in one file and add it on the fly to all the other possible units..under those circumstances it is un wise to stick ridigly to the view that what is written into an ini file is gospel..so it's a theory that might at some furture point shed some light on this effect...

 

i as i say have not tried to do anything with it as yet....but if it is understood that thewwicamp1_data.ini should be placed into the campaigns/wwicamp1 folder then this is perhaps something you could test...if not then never mind but edit the experinece level of one of the player squadrons ..place the edited ini into the flight folder (same as it's parent cat) and start a campaign selecting the edited squadron ..the pilots experience stats will be altered on the roster board...this allso allows you to test the other aspect of the thing...start another campaign select one of the unedited squadrons..and you will see that this squadrons stats have allso been increased ....that's some thing that might help you see why i'm sure that ther is more to this stufff than meets the eye and conforms to the rules applied to placement and the games reading and implementation of the ini entrys...

 

other than that which has no direct bearing on the "aircraft"data inis

 

my issue is that the "that will never work" stuff just just that....not terribly use-full to any-one in athread meant for the throwing about of ideas and thoughts not making concrete testable statements ...i am well aware that that is not the normal tone expected on simulation forums (in my experience) and have been well and trul shouted down on many occasions for trying to have such free and easy modding discussion threads on other sim sites....even lost my job as moderator on one site in exactly the same circumstances...had folks coming in from far and wide to pass on their authoriative view that "that will never work" and each time it was over some idiotic small idea that just seemed to be throw away to me...not important at all...just a random thought...and the next thing i know folks are suddenly having to stop posting ideas because they are worried that if it's not testable and provable from the get go..some one will put their "i'm an expert" hat on and clomp about the place ...it doesn't matter that it is not testable it doesn't matter even if it is completely and utterly wrong...it's an idea...and ideas are what modding thread are all about....one idea no matter how wrong it may turn out to be allways and i do mean allways sparks another idea and that idea may well work....kill one idea you kill them all...modding is fun.....the game is fun.....why is it fun..how do you test that??

and the really strange thing is a good 50% of those "it'll never work" idea do actually in the end turn out to be relevant and use-full and there-fore do work...

 

best i can do!!!

it's allready happened here hasn't it...most of the posts are now relating to one idea that shouldn't have disturbed any-one for any reason.. and some how blam off we go...this thread is probably allready dead and just hasn't realised it yet!

Edited December 23, 2006 by bortdafarm

[+Tailspin 3]

Again, total overreaction on your part, IMHO.

[+bortdafarm 1]

Again, total overreaction on your part, IMHO. I know when the thread started going south, its all in black and white. Last word is yours...like you I no longer care. Too bad.

well allright i did my level best to be completely honest and dang near wrote an essay on all the reasons why i could be wrong...if i knew what it was you wanted i'd try to provide it...(i thought i had?) i mentioned the camp_data test on the previous page ..there is nothing else to do...

[+Tailspin 3]

Don't worry, friend. We'll toss it around again another day.

[+bortdafarm 1]

no worries my fault really i guess ( i get a tadge over enthusiastic at times!)

[Gr.Viper 131]

Just looked at AI in red baron 3d... WOW! They even fly zigzag while over flak zones... We can try to imitate that by lovering flak accuracy(and increasing rate of fire)... Not the planes will avoid flak, bus flak shells will avoid planes.. Yet there will be plenty of blasts to make the player wet his/her pants...

 

Found some balloon gun in gundata.ini. But is is not used by any of three balls... maybe TW included it for further add-ons?

 

Met a couple of very good AI pilots in the campaign... It was quite hard to tail them. I wonder what it will be like if we set skill of all pilots in the campaign to ace? or... hm... I'll go and torture aircraftobject...

[+bortdafarm 1]

hi yup settings everything from

gundata033 down in the gundat.ini

to

Accuracy=30.000000

 

 

seems to take the edge of the flak...(AIMODv1) has this edit included)

i'm not clear exactly how the campaign sorts out the AI pilots status

in the single missions they are specifically set via the mission entrys

 

 

AircraftMission001

AircraftType=FokkerD7F

Name=FokkerD7F

FormationType=Fighter

Size=1

RandomChance=100

MissionType=CAP

ObjectiveID=2

Position=122200.0,132040.0,1000.0

Heading=180.0

Speed=50.0

Alignment=ENEMY

Nation=GERMANY

Texture=Jasta8

PilotTrainingStandard=EXCELLENT

 

 

but the campaign doesn't give us acces to the individual mission files it generates (i'm assuming it does it this way tho i haven't seen any temporary mission files stored any-where for the campaign so i dunno how it creates each mission)

but the skill level of the pilot seems to be controled via the experience setting in the wwicamp1_data.ini

 

 

AirUnit001

AircraftType=Salmson2A

Squadron=1AS

ForceID=1

Nation=USAS

DefaultTexture=USASCamo1

StartNumber=1

BaseArea=Touquin Aerodrome

RandomChance=100

BaseMoveChance=10

MaxAircraft=10

StartAircraft=10

MaxPilots=16

StartPilots=16

Experience=70 //<<<===== this is the fella AFAIK

Morale=100

 

 

but what happens when you set these all to 100 experience is that you get some dang fine stats fro the pilots on the roster screen BUT the campaign just seems to give the same stats to ALL the AI ,pilots enemy and friendly...so in effect your no better off..

 

i reckon your right that editing the aircraftobject.ini so that perhaps the veteran skill level has the same settings as the ace.....i have experimentd with this i must admit (it's all in AIMODv1) but although you get some changes in game and they can be quite good in some respects..there's no hardcore improvement

 

tell you what tho flying the albatros with the stock flight model settings really does the trick it's the first time i have HAD to run away to survive with ammo left and relatively undamaged plane...i just couldn't out turn the enemy Spads...even two of them posed a serious threat to survival!!

 

your squadron mates get knocked out the sky with out a moments pause tho...bit of a catch 22 on that issue..

 

i'm kinda stuck between getting the AI to be seriuos threat to the player (even one on one) flying the Alb proves that's likely to be possible...and trying to get the AI squadron mates to get some decent kill/survival ratios... heck it's summat to do!!!

[Gr.Viper 131]

I use gundata (I thought of accuracy = 5.000000 with rate of fire of an autocannon :) ) and aircraftobject from AImod

So I opened a-object.ini and set

 

ChanceContinue=1 for all skill levels

 

Don't know if it did the trick but... I spent about two minutes trying to tail a Fokker on my SPAD in instant action. I saw AI Albatross to tail and shoot down S.E.5a after about half a minute of very twisted flying. Continue can either mean "continuing straight flight" or more likely "continuing the turn in the same direction" as opposed to ChangeTurnDirection.

 

I also increased these.

AileronDeltaRoll=2.2

ElevatorDeltaPitch=2.2

ThrottleDeltaSpeed=2.1

 

The AIs stalled sometimes badly but tended the fly in a more inventive way. But I don't know what to do with corresponding rates. Do they mean smth per second, or the time for the action?

 

RollForHeading=3.6

MinRollHeading=5.0

PitchForRoll=10.0

Altered these to see if their turns will get sharper. Don't know if it works. I don't even know what are the maximum values allowed.

I also changed SafeAltitude to 100. Maybe that was the reason even burning AIs managed to land successfully. Many engine-dead landed. Can't see casualty list but I suppose more pilots survived...

Was testing only in instant action.

Edited December 23, 2006 by Gr.Viper

[+bortdafarm 1]

given enough trail and erroring you would think that an "ideal" set up would imerge from these alterations keep trying!!! i've had some remarkable twists and turns from the Se5a'a strangely tho all other types of aircraft remained the same (????) with just the aircratobject alterations on theri own..that had me foxed..as if all the other fighters had adopted the same tactics things would have been pretty fascinating to watch...

not been able to recreate it since tho so that one might be lost in the mists of time as it were..sooner or later a better picture of how to go about his will start to come from all this...there is a tutorial in the knowledge base section that covers some of the entrys (and lots of other stuff) i think FE has some new entrys tho as these are not mentioned in the tutorial..

 

these ones

 

RollForGunAttack=4.5

RollForGunAttackRate=-0.1

 

are unique to FE AFAIK (??)

 

get these maxed out and things should get pretty lively!

 

trouble is i'm never sure wether to increase them or decrease them (especailly the minus fiigure for the gunattack) but these entrys give the Ai the capability to flick roll in order to bring it's guns to bear...as they can't use their rudder (why is that??? never seen a sim that has the AI use-ing rudder control) this is the only way they have to fine tune their attack at the last second..looks good too...

 

i'll try your settings see if my Albatros wingmen do a little betetr

it's all fairly randomised so no sweat if it doesn't (has to average out over time)

 

try the

 

MaxRollForGunAttack=360

 

in the ace/novice etc setion

 

allso notice that the DWFc two seater in the dwfc_data,ini actually has it's own seperate AIDATA section added stright into the aircraft_data ini

so maybe unless this is just non functional...you can add aidata section to all the individual aircraft..i have used this idea but couldn't tellif there was any vast improvement

Edited December 23, 2006 by bortdafarm

[+pcpilot 181]

Fellas, I might suggest if you have a moment, post this topic over at the Thirdwire forums; there are a number of highly experianced modders, and of course TK, there that might be able to answer some of these questions you all have. Dueces and Fubar come to mind. I am personally highly interested in the outcome of this mod you are doing bort. It would be real nice to have something of a realism mod for this game. TK has said this is a "lite" sim but with its inherent ability to mod, it shouldnt be too hard to create some sort of realism mod to vastly improve gameplay. I would also be glad, as some have mentioned here already, to assist in any testing you might need.

[+bortdafarm 1]

Fellas, I might suggest if you have a moment, post this topic over at the Thirdwire forums; there are a number of highly experianced modders, and of course TK, there that might be able to answer some of these questions you all have. Dueces and Fubar come to mind. I am personally highly interested in the outcome of this mod you are doing bort. It would be real nice to have something of a realism mod for this game. TK has said this is a "lite" sim but with its inherent ability to mod, it shouldnt be too hard to create some sort of realism mod to vastly improve gameplay. I would also be glad, as some have mentioned here already, to assist in any testing you might need.

Cheers PC'

i have a few ideas brewing that would be fun to try but could never be cosidered for use as a realism mod in the traditional sense of the concept..i make gameplay mods rather than realism ones...

here's the idea i'm wondering about at the moment

as the pilot ratings don't play out in game terribly well (so far anyway )

i am considering making duplicate versions of all the aircraft

three or four versions of each...

and editing the capabilities of each version to simulate

novice

green

veteran

and

ace

 

each version modified to give better turn/roll etc etc rates than the lower rated aircraft...

then you can edit the campaigns to allocate ace squadrons (using the ace aircraft) novice squadrons (using the novice aircraft) and so on..bit of jiggery pokery and trail and error should result in something fun and immersive from the gameplay point of view (with possible other spin offs allso) has to be done with a bit of restraint..no ubering of aircraft just compensating for the inability of the AI higher roll rates etc etc..

players aircraft remains normal of course so it's a strictly AI job...

it doesn't help the players squadron AI pliots kill rates..but the armoured engine/pilot concept works very well...i don't lose pilots any more (wonded yes POW yes but far far fewer KIA)

no realism mod team is going to live with that....i prefer to make gameplay mods..

[Gr.Viper 131]

hm... 'gameplay mod' you say Beutepanzer rear sponson gunners never see action. What about giving them MG(or keep 8mm cannon), increasing pitch angles, turning speed and burst length, decreasing detection time and setting target type to air? Each tank gun has it's own settings so it shouldn't affect ground combat

[+bortdafarm 1]

hm... 'gameplay mod' you say Beutepanzer rear sponson gunners never see action. What about giving them MG(or keep 8mm cannon), increasing pitch angles, turning speed and burst length, decreasing detection time and setting target type to air? Each tank gun has it's own settings so it shouldn't affect ground combat

sound like an idea!!!! would add some tracer coming up from the trenchs... edit some of the AAA trucks aswell to carry MG's

 

IMO realism mods tend to end up focused on statistical realism..(if you type the historical figures into the files what happens in game must be realistic...which actualy rarely comes off in games/sims because it's a game sim not the real world...but you can tell yourself it's realistic because the stats are right)..gameplay mods focus on gameplay (which is all about percieved realism...does it appear to be realistic?? if so screw the stats )

[Gr.Viper 131]

Voila... German tanks don't like you anymore. And show it with Maxim MG(max burst length 16, half are tracers)

And the ground offensive still rages on

 

You know what to do with it

BEUTEPANZERIVF_DATA.rar

Edited December 27, 2006 by Gr.Viper