Bullets And BBs

[geezer205 0]

Instead of cluttering up Laton's thread about his excellent 1-1/2 Strutter, I thought it would be better to start one of my own. After a long absence due to real world stuff, I am back learning how to make aircraft for FE. Laton and I are in the process of contacting each other to discuss some collaboration on early WW1 aircraft.

 

I am fascinated by the funky elegance of some Morane-Saulnier aircraft used by the British in 1916: the Type N (knicknamed the "Bullet") and the Type BB two-seater. The Brits operated Type Ns for most of 1916 - they began to gradually withdraw them in the autumn after partially equipping three squadrons for the first 9 months of the year. British Bullets were equipped with Lewis guns, but were otherwise identical to the Hotchkiss-armed Type Ns used briefly by the French in 1915.

 

Operating alongside the Bullets in those same three squadrons was the Type BB two-seater - the Type BB was not used by the French. Interestingly, a version of the Bullet (armed with a synchronized Vickers) and the Type BB were also used in small numbers by the Russians.

 

[+Tailspin 3]

geezer205, are you aware that we have an excellent version of the Bullet made by P10ppy already available? Nothing wrong with having more than one, just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know.

[geezer205 0]

geezer205, are you aware that we have an excellent version of the Bullet made by P10ppy already available? Nothing wrong with having more than one, just thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know.

 

Yes, I have flown it in FE and it is truly outstanding. However, it is the French version that was armed with the Hotchkiss MG. The British versions were armed with Lewis guns, and the Russian variants armed with Vickers guns, so P10ppy's model can not accurately be used after the end of 1915 (when the French withdrew their Type Ns from the front).

[+Tailspin 3]

Ahhhh......I see.

[geezer205 0]

There are only a few authoritative sources for the M-S Type N - I have consulted three of the four most prominent sources and discovered the following:

 

- M-S built at least 24 (and possibly as many as 48) Type N's for the French Aviation Militaire, armed with unsynchronized 1909 Hotchkiss guns. These were used from June/July 1915 until late autumn of 1915, when they were withdrawn from the front.

 

- In September 1915, three Type N's were ordered by the British Royal Flying Corps for operational evaluation. Favorable reports resulted in an order for 24 Type N's in January 1916, with deliveries starting in May 1916. The RFC Type N's were armed with unsynchronized Lewis guns, and served through the summer of 1916 - withdrawal from the front began in September 1916 and was complete by late autumn.

 

- In 1916, the Imperial Russian Air Service took delivery of at least 20 Type I's, an improved version with a synchronized Vickers gun. The Russian Type I's were employed through the rest of 1916 and most of 1917. The RFC also had four Type I's at the front in late summer of 1916, but the French appear to have taken delivery of only two Type I's.

 

Compared to contemporary Allied fighters, such as the Nieuport 11 and Bristol Scout D, the M-S fighters were not very successful - they were considered difficult to fly and the unsynchronized guns were, at best, a stop-gap. The Russians operated them longer than anyone else because of a desperate shortage of aircraft.

[geezer205 0]

BTW, I want to say that I have nothing but admiration for P10ppy's Type N. I can only hope that my own effort is even remotely as good as P10ppy's superb addon.

 

While doing research for the Type BB, I realized that the BB was sorta/kinda just a stretched version of the Bullet. As the BB was mostly used by the RFC (but not the French), and the RFC only used Lewis gun-armed Type N's (not the Hotchkiss gun) I just sorta backed into the decision to also make an RFC Bullet because the two models have a lot in common.

Edited May 1, 2008 by geezer205

[+p10ppy 2]

looking good geezer205

 

let me know if you need any references for the N, I or V

theres not much info around but i "think" I've finally amassed most of them

 

I have a nearly finished MoS V and a started MoS I but the new bits are untextured and knowing me are still some time away from release (they have been it that state for some time)

The massive variations in the windscreens and gun mount types of the Russian and RFC machines i seem to remember was giving me grief...

 

Your service numbers and dates look about right to me, I think the 48 figure for the MoS N is both FAM and RFC combined

The RFC also used the V (12) during the Somme offensive and i think many of the most unfavorable reports on the aircraft relate to this model (much heavier)

 

Really looking forward to seeing them

Especially the BB :yes:

[geezer205 0]

I have a nearly finished MoS V and a started MoS I but the new bits are untextured and knowing me are still some time away from release (they have been it that state for some time)

The massive variations in the windscreens and gun mount types of the Russian and RFC machines i seem to remember was giving me grief...

 

Your service numbers and dates look about right to me, I think the 48 figure for the MoS N is both FAM and RFC combined

The RFC also used the V (12) during the Somme offensive and i think many of the most unfavorable reports on the aircraft relate to this model (much heavier)

 

Really looking forward to seeing them

Especially the BB :yes:

 

Thanks for the encouragement. The refs I have were sometimes detailed about production and delivery, and sometimes vague - you may be right that only a total of 48 Type N's were built.

 

Any chance that you might resume work on your RFC and Russian variants? If so, there is little point in my producing them - I would much prefer to concentrate on the BB and texturing Laton's 1-1/2 Strutter.

[geezer205 0]

let me know if you need any references for the N, I or V

theres not much info around but i "think" I've finally amassed most of them

 

I have the following refs for the Type N:

- Warplanes of the First World War, Vol. 5; J.M.Bruce; Doubleday, 1972.

- Article: The Bullets And The Guns; J.M.Bruce; Air Enthusiast #9, Pilot Press, 1979.

- French Aircraft of the First World War; James Davilla, Arthur Soltan; Flying Machines Press, 1997.

- Early Aircraft Armament; Harry Woodman; Smithsonian Press, 1989.

- Multi-view drawings; Ian Stair; Aircraft Archive Vol. 3; Argus Books, 1989.

 

The Albatros Data File is out of print and I have not been able to lay my hands on a copy, though I have not tried very hard. As you pointed out, there appears to be a lot of variation to the Lewis and Vickers gun installations for the RFC Bullets, Type I, and Type V.

 

There is even less info available for the Type BB. Careful comparison of photos to the most common three-view made me conclude that the three-view had a number of inaccuracies. I found a contemporary drawing that appeared to be more accurate, though lacking some details.

[+p10ppy 2]

Thanks for the encouragement. The refs I have were sometimes detailed about production and delivery, and sometimes vague - you may be right that only a total of 48 Type N's were built.

 

Any chance that you might resume work on your RFC and Russian variants? If so, there is little point in my producing them - I would much prefer to concentrate on the BB and texturing Laton's 1-1/2 Strutter.

 

welllll i will finish them... (new cockpit bits will take the longest)

 

but i wouldn't like to say when

I don't have that much spare time, so its all a bit of a whim, what i work on next...and i seem to have started a ridiculous number of things

and new things keep taking my fancy.... (of course seeing yours made me go and look at what i had done, and start thinking about them again)

 

So please don't feel constrained by my erratic output

 

I picked up the MoS N,I,V windsock (sometime after i had released the plane ) so let me know if there is any detail stuff you want me to pm you

 

I don't think I have much/any stuff on the BB tho :(

 

On 3-views

Ive found most to be unreliable at best and the best thing to do is pick one (picking two is stupid, I know ) and supplement it with as many photos as you can

 

good luck

Edited May 2, 2008 by p10ppy

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Geezer.

 

Nice work, they look great!

 

If it's any use, here's a list of references for the Morane BB.

 

Books:

'The Aeroplanes Of The Royal Flying Corps'...J.M.Bruce.

 

Journals:

Cross & Cockade International...Vol 8, No.2. Vol 10, No.4. Vol 19, No.2. Vol 20, No.2

Cross & Cockade US...Vol 22, No.3

WW1 Aero...No.129

 

 

That's about all there is AFAIK...

 

Regards

 

Bucky

Edited May 2, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[geezer205 0]

Hi Geezer.

 

Nice work, they look great!

 

If it's any use, here's a list of references for the Morane BB.

 

Books:

'The Aeroplanes Of The Royal Flying Corps'...J.M.Bruce.

 

Journals:

Cross & Cockade International...Vol 8, No.2. Vol 10, No.4. Vol 19, No.2. Vol 20, No.2

Cross & Cockade US...Vol 22, No.3

WW1 Aero...No.129

 

 

That's about all there is AFAIK...

 

Regards

 

Bucky

 

Thanks. I'm pretty much satisfied with the aircraft now - it matches the photos I have and (mostly) matches the best of the two drawings. I still lack information for two items - the cockpit(s) and a fairing that enclosed the photo recon camera mounted on the left side of the fuselage. The fairing shown in the shots above is a WAG.

Edited May 3, 2008 by geezer205

[Southside Bucky 1]

Re: The camera fairing.

 

What photo are you referring to? 'cause I doubt if that's a standard fitting. You could get away with just a box camera on rails, as used on BE2's etc.

[geezer205 0]

Re: The camera fairing.

 

What photo are you referring to? 'cause I doubt if that's a standard fitting. You could get away with just a box camera on rails, as used on BE2's etc.

 

When equipped with a camera, the installation was located outside the observer's cockpit, enclosed by a fairing, on the right-hand side. The only photo I have been able to find is shown below.

 

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Geezer.

 

I could be wrong, but IMHO, I don't think that's a camera housing at all. It's just not long or deep enough for the bulky camera's the British were using at the time. I would say that was an ammo box (or pouch) for spare Lewis drums.

 

I'm not being in any way critical here...Just trying to help.

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[geezer205 0]

Hi Geezer.

 

I could be wrong, but IMHO, I don't think that's a camera housing at all. It's just not long or deep enough for the bulky camera's the British were using at the time. I would say that was an ammo box(or pouch) for spare Lewis drums.

 

I'm not being in any way critical here...Just trying to help.

Regards.

 

Bucky

 

No problem. :yes: I was a bit skeptical about the size/shape of the fairing myself, but two different sources stated that the camera - and sometimes the radio equipment (when carried) - were enclosed in a fairing. Considering the lack of fairing photos, and that not all BB's were camera- or radio-equipped, I am tempted to just delete it on the theory that no details are better than bad details.

 

The photo below unfortunately is too small to show much detail, but suggests that there WAS some kind of fairing. The bullet-like shape just forward of the pilot's cockpit, combined with the linear shape above lower edge of the pilot's cockpit suggest a radio installation that has been partially removed.

 

The BB was a small airplane so there was not a lot of internal space for radio equipment - plus, the heavy radio equipment would have been installed as close to the CG as possible.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Regarding the camera fairing, here's the definitive explanation from the late J.M. Bruce in his book 'The Aeroplanes Of The Royal Flying Corps':

 

At an early stage the RFC asked for the Type BB to be modified in various ways to meet operational requirements. The major modification required was the enlargement of the side fairing of the fuselage on the starboard side to house a camera and a wireless transmitter mounted on the outer side of the basic fuselage frame. This produced an asymmetrical fuselage but apparently had no adverse effect on performance or handling qualities. A vertical tube for a gun mounting was to be provided behind the cockpit, and other minor modifications were to be made...

...By February, 1916, it had been decided to fit the wireless and it's accumulator behind the obsrver's seat.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bucky

[geezer205 0]

Well, the BB is almost finished. Next is mapping and textures. With some advice from Laton and P10ppy, I then hope to load it into First Eagles and see if it works. Is anyone interested in making the FM? (in a couple of months).

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2008 by geezer205