Just a side note

[+peter01 2]

Theres still more WIP threads to come, but just a couple of other things.

 

One of the aims of all this is to provide a lot of stuff that just works, without too much modding needed. For the regulars that have been playing and enjoying the game for some while to some extent (new FMs), but for players newer to FE. I'm sure down the track that if its easier for newer players, it will attract and retain them. And thats needed.

 

To me, theres no point everybody needing to find out how to make ai only stock planes flyable for example, or perhaps moving from a somewhat easy game to a more challenging one. And by providing modded files, it helps people identify what they can change and mod themselves too.

 

I'm fortunate in the sense that many modders have allowed me to do FMs for their planes, or use their mods. So for better or worse, I guess, thats how this modded game plays, to a certain extent its up to me, at least initially.

 

Now, once all this is ready, I have no issue with anyone modding and reposting things I have done. You know, maybe some planes are too tough, too fragile, add stress modelling, how about a 100hp Pup, adding external bombloads (looks better) or le prieurs to other planes, adding extra guns (christian is good at that) or doing them differently, improving/reducing roll climb pitch etc. Putting my ai data in planes for the stock planes for the April patch. Even using the FMs as a base for their own models. .......

 

Its endless.

 

No probs at all, actually I encourage it, and encourage you to post as well - if its an improvement or people like it, well people will download and use it.

 

Just a couple of things:

 

If its based on my work, please mention that, you do not need to get my permission tho at any time.

 

Tks work, and my mods of TKs work, just go right ahead....Camels etc.

 

Bortdafarm stated quite clearly that anybody can mod his work, and post. I extend that to my FMs of his models.

 

For others, you just need to get the original modellers approval. Its simple, and not one has said no to me, ever, they won't say no to you, either. They would like to see their work used, maybe improved too.

 

So, yep, its a bit lonely being the only person doing FMs, and tho its not easy, making mods to existing work is not that hard, its the best way to start if your so inclined.

 

So if you have made improvements, why post on the forum or keep to yourself?? Put it up as a download.

Edited July 2, 2008 by peter01

[deep 5]

Peter01,

 

At risk of sounding maudlin, your contribution here and the sprit in which it is offered represent not only the best in our small world, but a glipse into what an interconnected world could offer.

 

S!

[+whiteknight06604 934]

Peter01,

 

At risk of sounding maudlin, your contribution here and the sprit in which it is offered represent not only the best in our small world, but a glipse into what an interconnected world could offer.

 

S!

 

dare I say it?....that was very deep. all jokeing aside there is a lot of truth to what you guys are saying.Peter do you have any notes that you could share on FM creation?I may like to take a stab one day but I fear i'm a little to impatient and "slow" but who knows,maybe I'll try someday.In my opinion I think the thing that has stopped the world wide acceptence of First Eagles is online play.I don't play online except for an ocasional Halo match with friends.Online seems to be what can make a game from a pastime to a religeon.I just got IL-2 1946It's an OK game it looks like fun but it dosn't seem any better than lots of other games of it's genre but it to this day has a cult-like following.I think it's mostly due to online.If First Eagles seemed too have a central or standerized FM and DM set online MIGHT be more apealing to the online junkies.

[+Tailspin 3]

Be careful what you wish for.

[Firecage 1]

Ok I cant resist jumping in here.... I am in hopes that someone will take the idea above of a standard FM and DM and set up a server for on line play. Some what like maybe a home version of Kali.net or in that idea. I think having more players flying against players the FMs will begin to show good abuse and help find small things that may need slight tweaks.

 

Online is to me one of the biggest reasons I feel the game hasn't taken off even bigger.

 

Peter, GREAT job on the Fm's and all the work you put into it. I am really looking forwward to your campaigns. I am sure you have some tricks I have't used so im wanting to see them when you get ready to release.

 

For a future idea I would love to see the code show up in the game for mass online of maybe 24-36 players or so for real missions with AI and human players like EAW / IL2 had.

 

:yes:

[+peter01 2]

"Peter do you have any notes that you could share on FM creation?I may like to take a stab one day but I fear i'm a little to impatient and "slow" but who knows,maybe I'll try someday."

 

Have several notebooks worth of notes scribbled, but I can hardly understand them myself anymore.

 

Certainly felt the lack of that when I started, it seemed it was all like "Secret FM'ers Business".

 

The reality is different though....its probably impossible. I doubt there is anyone doing FMs for this series of games that isn't still learning, improving. You can do anything, you have complete control, but 99% doesn't work, or work well.

 

Its not like a template design, as in many other moddable games. In these you are limited in what you can do, but then again, its not hard to get things going reasonably well either. Actually in many ways its very easy, eg did a couple for OFF, they are no better or worse than those available (tho not tested extensively) - it was a leisurely afternoons work.

 

Not that that its hard to get a plane to fly in FE, I think my first (and a real buzz too) took only a few hours after some research on the meanings of the various parameters etc. But many hundreds of hours later (if not thousands), each and every plane is still a struggle in one way or another.

 

In this game, the templates are FMs done by others. You learn by modding those initially. And thats why I stated people can use mine. Modding those, improving them, may only be a matter of hours if you have the interest and some knowledge. That knowledge is around, in the various forums, and the things like StrikeFightersEditingInfo manual done by Charles.

 

But a couple of things. If doing FMs for FE now, decide which version, they are all different. And be prepared to test extensively by flying at low altitude, high altitude, dogfighting, takeoffs etc, all these are different, all require checking, all the time. Patience is a prerequiste :).

Edited July 3, 2008 by peter01

[Bandy 3]

"Peter do you have any notes that you could share on FM creation?I may like to take a stab one day but I fear i'm a little to impatient and "slow" but who knows,maybe I'll try someday."

 

... took only a few hours after some research on the meanings of the various parameters etc.

... That knowledge is around, in the various forums, and the things like StrikeFightersEditingInfo manual done by Charles.

... Patience is a prerequiste :).

 

Aye, there's the rub! Various parameters, various forums, and patience... Centralization of the knowledge might at least help jump start others doing this, as you say, it's like a secret club not that anyone means it to be... And certainly not that you should bear the burden of recording this either, but who knows it better? TK?

 

Those terrific WWII installs, that so many spent so much time on, are positively screaming for an update to WOI (as I understand better implementation than FE).

So much work for all those add on A/C... It is overwhelming. Just an obs.

[Firecage 1]

One thing that will help ANYONE that wants to play around with the code can be found at Charles page

 

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/CharlesEAW/sfpage.html

 

At the very bottom there is a link to the SF editing download which explains pretty well on how to mod FMs, missions, and campaigns. He is a great resource to be able to pull from and I highly suggest it as great reading for all.

[+peter01 2]

Aye, there's the rub! Various parameters, various forums, and patience... Centralization of the knowledge might at least help jump start others doing this, as you say, it's like a secret club not that anyone means it to be... And certainly not that you should bear the burden of recording this either, but who knows it better? TK?

 

Those terrific WWII installs, that so many spent so much time on, are positively screaming for an update to WOI (as I understand better implementation than FE).

So much work for all those add on A/C... It is overwhelming. Just an obs.

 

Yes improvements to the FM especially come at a cost, in terms of needing to redo things. It can be a huge job, and guess thats the case for the WW2 mods (less for Jet stuff). TK should probably leave improvements to the Flight Model area alone, its far better than many games in this regard anyway, maybe concentrate on other things?

 

TK knows it all...of course! Its hard to describe the awe I have for the work he has done. The new FM and stalls in FE and WOI, tho not appreciably different to previous versions, still would have taken so much talent and time to get right, its hard to describe. He must have been working on it here and there for a couple of years, and must also have very sophisticated development and testing tools. But I know that he has only just started, it could be better, but you know, thats a concern to me...more changes!!!

 

You are right re info being easily available, and clear, and that wouldn't be too hard to do. The problem is that its not enough by any stretch of the imagination. Like I said most things don't work....everything effects everything else (theres thousands of numbers in a FM, my view is that almost each and every number makes a difference!), you can't help people generally with FMs unless you look at the FMs done by them...no-one would want that. Not TK either.

 

Its like painting, you can't really learn until you do it.

 

Was wondering where you dissappeared to? WW2, eh?

 

And with the WW2 stuff, I guess people that know how to do FMs won't have anymore trouble redoing them then I did for FE. Its just, well...its the time. Its not lack of knowledge. The AI side is maybe different, it was introduced big time in the original FE , I have a big head start there, but again, those that do FMs will learn like I did, or look at what I did, and good dogfighting AI is probably jut as important for ww2 as ww1.

 

And before anyone asks, no, not going to write something down on the AI. Its all testing and patience, and its best done by someone that does the FM. If someone asks a specific question, and I know the answer, I'll respond.

Edited July 4, 2008 by peter01

[Firecage 1]

Ok I have a question thats general area and you dont have to get to deep, its just something I see in the game I thought you might know how to correct.

 

WHen I am in a plane thats more suited to B&Z I find the B part easy and the Z part lacking in any good exit speed to be worth wild. It seems INHO that the planes should have a slight bit more power in the pull out and the have an easier time retaining E than I seem to feel in game right now. When I am in the SE5a turn fighting in about the last idea I try but I find B&Z really hard to do right now.

 

I am not saying they should be out of line but I feel a slight need for more of the speed should carry through on the exit of a dive through a bit more.

 

Can you find any easy idea that might help in this area without losing alot somewhere else?

[+peter01 2]

LOL, I meant the AI.

 

Which plane, which FM?

 

What you are trying to do is improve the climb, or apects of it, many things effect the climb, some more than most depending on the FM.

 

Its easier for me if you tell me which one ... the Se5a? Whose FM?

 

BTW, almost any change affects the feel or performance in some way.

[Firecage 1]

Im using pretty much your last release of FMs, I think pretty much thats all but the Dr1 and camels ( I think those two you left alone) that you did FM releases on. I dont have any planes really that dont use your FMs.

 

I fly German about 80% of the time so im alot more knowledgable of their FM I think.

 

As an example: I find in your last release of the Albs FM pack that the Albs are a bit easier to try and energy fight with them instead of just turn fighting. SO I fall in on some allied bomber or fighter group and I buzz them and give them a few rounds. As I pull away it seems to me that they can pull up and tend to match my pull away and alt gain pretty easy. I find in the SE5a has alot fo the same problems.

 

Another plane I fly as allied alot are the Spad variations they are one of the only planes I seem to get good result in the boom and zoom game. I think maybe Im looking for a bit more inertia to carry you back up into air with a bit less drag slowing the plane. I am not yanking on the stick or anything to cause a hard AOA drag or anything silly I just try and take a nice swoop in and out to max out any Energy that I can use.

 

I have done some funny things like changing the gravity settings in the ini files and have some very laughable things happen if taken too far 8)

 

Since it seems to be so many of the planes I was thinking there might be a way to change some factor in game to help this along slightly but I havent found it yet. ALot of my deal is Real life kinda has me by the tail right now and I dont have the time I used to have to mess with the ini files like I used to.

 

Hope this clears up my vague question a bit more :yes:

[+peter01 2]

Okay.

 

Each plane is different, and climb is one of those things that you have to get pretty right to start with in a FM, everything is effected by changes here, as climb variables effect everything.

 

But you know if its necessary to tweak climb a bit down the track, and often is, I do this in 2 ways to minimise side effects, I'll use my Se5a FM as example.

 

First, in Fuselage section:

 

CD0=0.0087 (drag)

.

.

.

CD0MachTableData=1.637,1.119,1.000,0.945 (drag table over speed, first goes from 0mph to about 70mph at second value as linear slope)

 

REDUCE 1.637 to say 1.337 and once speed reduces on climb to less than 70 mph, drag is less (multiplies cd0 number). In this case CD0=0.0087 is a small number, not much effect so pretty useless, but cd0 is often high, and its in all wing sections, and reducing this will improve its ability to continue climbing at slower speeds. Don't touch the second or third numbers has effects on top speed, other things.

 

No side effects really.

 

Second in each wing section plus stabs and fuselage, but as an example in one section, bottom wings:

 

CDL=0.0010 (drag on AoA)

.

.

.

CDLAlphaTableData=6.737,4.606,2.879,1.555,0.636,0.121,0.010,0.303,1.000,2.101,3.606,5.515,7.827,10.544,13.665

 

last table is drag on AoA from -28 to plus 28 degree in increments of 4 degreees AoA in that order, and multiplies the cdl figure. To maintain speed as you zoom at say angles greater than 20 degrees, reduce last 3 numbers. Makes quite a difference, depending on the value of cdl which varies in different wing sections. Example

 

CDLAlphaTableData=6.737,4.606,2.879,1.555,0.636,0.121,0.010,0.303,1.000,2.101,3.606,5.515,6.827,7.544,8.665

 

and if applied to several wing sections would make a large difference, eg bottom wing set is applicable in this example.

 

Side effect is that it will turn better too - drag is there on turn, its positive AoA. Can be offset by reducing CLiftdc= in elevator sections by say 10% at a guess, if you want.

 

Don't change other numbers in the table, plane starts feeling a lot different, especially if changes are around the 0 degree AoA (half way in table). Its doable and sometimes better, but its tricky.

 

Its impossible for me to tell exactly the result or consequences, but thats what I would do, and have done very similar things.

Edited July 4, 2008 by peter01

[J18Dread 0]

I salute the master. How did you figure this out?

 

I now have the D7F (EP+April update) just about where I think it should be - maybe still needs a little more power, but now able to make multiple loops.

 

Changed the CDL by .3 and the AlphaTables by 2 integers (19 changes in all).

 

If at all possible, please collect these thoughts/insights into an FM guide. I would never have known where to start and I am sure to lose this forum note.

Edited July 4, 2008 by J18Dread