MiG-17F Performance

[column5]

I've been fooling around with the SFP1 Extract Utility and in particular have been looking at the MiG-17F performance specs.

 

The default thrust values in the MIG-17F_DATA.INI are:

 

SLThrustDry=38245.94

SLThrustWet=56290.17

 

TK posted at SimHQ that most of the values are metric, so these thrust ratings appear to be measured in kN (kilo-newtons, IIRC). These figures correspond to 8598lb thrust dry and 12655lb in afterburner using a conversion factor of 4.44822 (also specified by TK). These figures seem high, and indeed searching around the 'net for MiG-17F performance data seems to bear this out. There are numerous sites I could link, but this one is most interesting:

 

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/vvs/mig17-01.htm

 

Scrolling down towards the bottom you can see the thrust of the Klimov VK-1F turbojet rated at 29.5kN dry and 33.14kN with reheat. Or, 6632lb dry and 7450lb with reheat.

 

In game terms this would look like:

 

SLThrustDry=29500.00

SLThrustWet=33140.00

 

Considerably less that the out-of-the-box MiG-17F.

 

On to my point. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm going to reduce the thrust and see how the MiG performs with the mroe realistic figure. It isn't my intention to water down the MiG-17 in any way, but I do think the Phantom should display a marked superiority in power v. the MiG-17 which I really haven't noticed to this point.

[SDirickson]

I say any change in the game to make it more realistic is a change for the better.

 

So long as you change all the ohter aircraft too. It could be that ALL of the aircraft have ramped up thrust values, including the F-4.

[column5]

I say any change in the game to make it more realistic is a change for the better.  

 

So long as you change all the ohter aircraft too. It could be that ALL of the aircraft have ramped up thrust values, including the F-4.

 

 

I couldn't agree more! Checking the F-4B's data file, its thrust ratings are as follows:

 

SLThrustDry=44482.2 (10000lb)

SLThrustWet=75619.8 (17000lb)

 

This is spot on as far as I can tell. All of my sources agree with these figures. Here's one:

 

http://www.skytamer.com/specs/usa/mcdonnell/f-4b.htm

[column5]

SLThrustDry=44482.2   (10000lb)

SLThrustWet=75619.8   (17000lb)

 

Should mention that each engine on the Phantom has this much thrust, so in full burner you've got 34,000lb total.

[Seawolf]

For the F4 those numbers should be per engine, shouldnt they? F4 had way more thrust than that i think.

[column5]

For the F4 those numbers should be per engine, shouldnt they? F4 had way more thrust than that i think.

 

Beat me to it! Yes, those figures are per engine, so total thrust in AB would be 34000lb.

 

For anyone who is curious here is what the "Engines" section of the F-4B_DATA.INI looks like:

 

// Engines ---------------------------------------------------------

 

[Engine1]

SystemType=JET_ENGINE

InputName=THROTTLE_CONTROL

EngineID=1

HasAfterburner=TRUE

NumAfterburnerStages=4

SLThrustDry=44482.2

SLThrustWet=75619.8

ThrustAngles=0.0,7.00,0.0

ThrustPosition=-0.65,2.59,0.00

ThrottleRate=0.5

NozzleAnimationID=7

IdleThrottle=0.10

IdleRPM=0.68

IdleNozzle=0.0

CruiseThrottle=0.37

CruiseRPM=0.82

CruiseNozzle=1.0

MilThrottle=0.65

MilRPM=1.00

MilNozzle=1.0

MaxThrottle=0.78

MaxRPM=1.00

MaxNozzle=1.0

FullABThrottle=1.12

FullABRPM=1.00

FullABNozzle=0.0

AltitudeTableNumData=10

AltitudeTableDeltaX=3048.0

AltitudeTableStartX=0.0

AltitudeTableData=1.000,0.802,0.634,0.496,0.381,0.288,0.206,0.147,0.105,0.000

DryMachTableNumData=4

DryMachTableDeltaX=0.4

DryMachTableStartX=0.0

DryMachTableData=1.000,0.980,1.172,0.000

WetMachTableNumData=7

WetMachTableDeltaX=0.4

WetMachTableStartX=0.0

WetMachTableData=1.000,0.991,1.207,1.683,2.473,2.750,3.027

MaxInletTemperature=120

GyroscopicInertia=

TSFCM0=0.860

TSFCM1=1.270

AfterburnerTSFC=1.930

MinFuelFlow=0.01

ExhaustEmitterName=DirtyExhaustEmitter

ExhaustPosition=-0.65,-3.63,-0.58

AfterburnerNodeName=afterburner

AfterburnerEmitterName=AfterburnerEmitter

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

FireSuppression=TRUE

 

[Engine2]

SystemType=JET_ENGINE

InputName=THROTTLE_CONTROL

EngineID=2

HasAfterburner=TRUE

NumAfterburnerStages=4

SLThrustDry=44482.2

SLThrustWet=75619.8

ThrustAngles=0.0,7.00,0.0

ThrustPosition=0.65,2.59,0.00

ThrottleRate=0.5

NozzleAnimationID=6

IdleThrottle=0.10

IdleRPM=0.68

IdleNozzle=0.0

CruiseThrottle=0.37

CruiseRPM=0.82

CruiseNozzle=1.0

MilThrottle=0.65

MilRPM=1.00

MilNozzle=1.0

MaxThrottle=0.78

MaxRPM=1.00

MaxNozzle=1.0

FullABThrottle=1.12

FullABRPM=1.00

FullABNozzle=0.0

AltitudeTableNumData=10

AltitudeTableDeltaX=3048.0

AltitudeTableStartX=0.0

AltitudeTableData=1.000,0.802,0.634,0.496,0.381,0.288,0.206,0.147,0.105,0.000

DryMachTableNumData=4

DryMachTableDeltaX=0.4

DryMachTableStartX=0.0

DryMachTableData=1.000,0.980,1.172,0.000

WetMachTableNumData=7

WetMachTableDeltaX=0.4

WetMachTableStartX=0.0

WetMachTableData=1.000,0.991,1.207,1.683,2.473,2.750,3.027

MaxInletTemperature=120

GyroscopicInertia=

TSFCM0=0.860

TSFCM1=1.270

AfterburnerTSFC=1.930

MinFuelFlow=0.01

ExhaustEmitterName=DirtyExhaustEmitter

ExhaustPosition=0.65,-3.63,-0.58

AfterburnerNodeName=afterburner

AfterburnerEmitterName=AfterburnerEmitter

MinExtentPosition=

MaxExtentPosition=

[SDirickson]

Just wanted to make sure we didn't change the wrong aircraft, or make it unrealistic without knowing it.

[+pcpilot]

Im about as technical as a canopener so I'll leave this stuff to you boys. From the sounds emanating from your posts I think your on to something. I agree with SD, any change to make things more realistic is a change for the better. I had noticed that the MiG-17 did seem awfully powerful. Good catch Column5.

[column5]

After flying several engagements with the lower-powered MiG-17s in my trusty F-4B, I am wondering if the additional thrust given to the MiG is to make up for some deficiencies in the AI?

 

I've been reading a lot about the Navy's encounters with MiGs in Vietnam lately, and the impression that I get is that the MiG-17 pilot should try to drag the Phantom down into a slow turning fight on the deck. The MiG-17 drivers in the game though seem hell bent on climbing away from me, which is like opening the door for me to come in and murder them. With the lower thrust settings, I see them just hanging there at 75-80kts trying to climb, which makes them sitting ducks for the AIM-9D. In the rare situation where they actually use their turning advantage, they are just as hard to kill as with the stock thrust settings.

 

I think that I'll revert back to stock thrust to keep the challenge high, and see how the game evolves in the coming patches.

[SDirickson]

Boy, thats kind of a blow, huh? Its a bit harder to change the AI than to change the thrust settings.

 

Well, maybe we can just use the realistic MiG-17 for MP. Not that anybody would really want to use it now.

[Seawolf]

See this post here: http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bb...TML/002409.html

 

I did some low altitude speed tests on the aircraft in SF and was surprised what i found. None of them performed to the speed they are actually rated. The Mig21 is way too fast and the F104 is way to slow. Also notice the wepon drag comparisons and how the A4 gains no airspeed once ordy is dropped and plane is in clean config. F100, well lets just say it took a full tank of gas to find out the top speed, but that's after fighting to get it in the air. The F4 appears to be ok for the most part, except it's slow speed handling is a bit over done i think.

Of course this is all my opinion and I am by no means an expert on these aircraft. I'm just basing my observations on feel and numbers.

 

Perhaps now would be a good time to start working on a set standard for modified flight models so we all know what is acceptible in SF as far as being realistic.

[Dark_Knight_667th]

I think if TK agreed to tweak the AI that realistic thrust, lift, etc wouldn't be a bad idea..however TK has said that he is planning on tweaking the flight models for the aircraft as well...lets see what he does first..

 

DK

[Snake_61]

Hi,

I did modify the Mig17data.ini and copied it into the Objects/Aircraft/Mig17.

Is this enough ?? Does the data.ini overrides the Objects.cat ??

Thought to feel and see the diff´rence!? But still the Mig-17 is a very serious threat for the F-100 !!!

Anyway I wondered if it is enough just to copy the data.ini into the Folder ?

I don´t know how to pack it back into Objects.cat!!!

 

Thx and Cya

Snake

[column5]

Hi,

I did modify the Mig17data.ini and copied it into the Objects/Aircraft/Mig17.

Is this enough ?? Does the data.ini overrides the Objects.cat ??

Thought to feel and see the diff´rence!? But still the Mig-17 is a very serious threat for the F-100 !!!

Anyway I wondered if it is enough just to copy the data.ini into the Folder ?

I don´t know how to pack it back into Objects.cat!!!

 

Thx and Cya

Snake

 

You don't need to put it back into the .cat file. As long as the file is in the correct folder it will override the one in the .cat file.

 

As for the F-100, its flight model is so screwed up that a Cessna with underwing BB guns would be a serious threat. "Lead, Two, he's got a pair of Daisys! No joy, no joy!"

[SDirickson]

Yeah, the F-100 is pretty bad. Anybody in a MiG outclasses it so bad its not even funny.

[Snake_61]

Thank You Guys for Your response,

thought I was too dumb to fly this "Brick" !!! :roll:

 

But now You make me feel a bit better !! :D

 

For now,I know how to go on modding and experimenting,thanks again....

Tryin to make this (Stone)Bird a little more effective!

 

I want to past the first months in the Campaign to get the F-4,

but with the F-100 it is a lot of work,just to survive even without

Mig´s around! :P

 

Cya

Snake

[vercingetorix]

I found this data on the web concering the MIG-17F hope that it offers some usefull information

 

 

SPECIFICATIONS

Wingspan: 31 feet, 7 inches Cost:

Length: 36 feet, 11 inches Max. Speed: 696 mph

Height: 12 feet, 6 inches Range: 1,290 miles

Weight: 14,770 lbs. Service Ceiling: 52,366 feet

Engines: Engine: One Valer Klimov, VK-1 turbojet with 5,952 lbs. of thrust

 

1949, the Mikoyan-Gurevich (MiG) design bureau began work on a new fighter to replace the MiG-15. Two features of the aircraft were a thinner wing of greater sweep and a redesigned tail that improved stability and handling at speeds approaching Mach 1 (speed of sound). The prototype MiG-17 (NATO code name Fresco) first flew in January 1950 and was reported to have exceeded Mach 1 in level flight. Deliveries to the Soviet Air Force began in 1952. Early production MiG-17s were fitted with the VK-1 engine, a Soviet copy of the Rolls-Royce Nene. The VK-1F, an improved version with a simple afterburner and variable nozzle, was developed for the main production version, the MiG-17F (Fresco C). In 1955 the radar equipped MiG-17PF (Fresco D) entered service as a limited all-weather interceptor. The MiG-17PFU was armed with four AA-1 "Alkali" radar-guided missiles, making it the Soviet Union's first missile armed interceptor. Even though it was considered obsolete by the mid-1960s, the MiG-17 gave a good account over Vietnam, being flown by most of the top North Vietnamese pilots, including the leading ace, Colonel Tomb.

 

 

 

 

 

-Vercingetorix

[Snake_61]

@vercingetorix

Very interesting Informations!

Thank You...

 

BTW I like Your name.

 

Used to read Asterix some time ago and this name sounds somehow familiar to me! :D

 

Cya Snake