Powerhouse or Not?

[+peter01 2]

....a new Se5a FM.

 

I'm currently redoing some later war FMs, and to me, they seem like the best I've done, a few more things fell into place the past few weeks. They are all for the Unpatched EP.

 

I'd like some feedback on one of these, the Se5a. If you are willing to give feedback, please post here and say so. If no takers, well, I'll keep it until I've completed a number and tried them out over some time...if there isn't much interest then there's no point in rushing. If there are some takers, I'll post the Se5a FM.

 

Its good I think to have some discussion of these things here too.....on the forum.

 

So why so chuffed about this one? Good question . Of course this is my own opinion, so pardon the immodesty and feel free to contradict me, but....

 

Overall, easily the best Se5a FM done, in any version of the game, and anybody's FM. Maybe my best FM too, given how difficult it is to do. I'd say it would convert many to flying this plane.

 

Feels right, at least how I imagine the Se5a should feel. Heavy, but responsive. Feels alive.

 

Its very stable (needs to be for the gunsight), but unlike all my previous efforts, not bland or boring, and not too smooth. A favourite tactic of mine with this is to extend away, turn around to go for a a headshot using the Aldis telescopic sight and the planes stablity. Its a blast when they pass in the opposite direction in smoke or flames.

 

Performance wise very capable. Not that manoeuvrable, but all up very capable. Climbs very well. Dives like a brick. You can even beat FokkerD7s with this one.

 

Stalls seem about right, you need to maintain a high speed, but thats not hard to do.

 

AI wise its a very good ZnB'er, and even in a FokkerD7 (the best overall plane), its an tough battle against an ace ai Se5a.

 

This one maybe an easy one to convert to the April 2008 patch. If any interest let me know, and I'll have a look at it.

Edited August 21, 2008 by peter01

[J18Dread 0]

Peter01

 

Interested in anything you do for the April patch, except the D7f (it is just about where I want it to be). I have the SE5a in some of my missions as AI, so will be happy to pick it up when you are done. Let me know.

 

The other planes I use as AI are RE8, Salmson2A, Camel 150, Spad13 and Alb D5. Appreciate all your hard work. Thanks.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Count me in Peter...It certainly sounds as though you finally nailed it!

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[+peter01 2]

Thanks for volunteering Bucky , and would really appreciate your feedback.

 

Slight change of plan, I'll email it to you. Seems like everyone is somewhat FM'd out, at least for the Oct 2007 version. So I'll upload it with other FM changes, when I'm ready.

 

"It certainly sounds as though you finally nailed it!"

 

Ah, that was the sales spiel ... :beta1: .... just kidding.

 

It does seem to have a wow factor to me. Like the first time I flew TKs Camel or Spad 7s. Maybe its partly because a decent FM wasn't available before for this plane, and that was a pity, as it is such a nice and important plane.

 

The difficulty with the Se5a is the tradeoff between performance, feeling good to fly/fight in, and stability (for the Aldis). Its a helluva FM to do. And there is one compromise. It seems a good one to me, at least... this one isn't that stable if you fly around shooting like your in a nimble rotary. But it stabilises quickly when you settle the plane and is very stable in high speed dives. Lots of fun attacking ground objects and following planes in dives at very high speeds - the Aldis becomes an advantage rather than a hindrance. It requires a slightly different approach to dogfighting, say compared to Camel, and I like that too.

 

Anyway, do need some objective feedback, so feel free to contradict or whatever.

 

Thanks again.

 

Cheers

[Guest B. Bandy RFC]

Hey Peter,

 

Despite perhaps the less than perfect FMs for the SE5 in the past, I have to admit :blush2: the AC has become one of my favorites over the past year or so, so I am looking forward to this!

 

If memory serves, Cecil Lewis' mentioned in some details the traits of the SE5, and you are bang on, except for the good climbing-- it wasn't, at least compared to its immediate contemporaries it was a dog in a climb. That fat nose so far forward bled off a lot airspeed in aggressive climbing maneuvers.

 

Cheers for your dedication!

[+peter01 2]

Not sure I agree that it was a dog in a climb Bandy.

 

Sustained climb was the same as the Camel's, pretty good.

 

Sudden climbs probably weren't as good, mainly the weight difference I suspect, because it had an excellent drag profile. But then again, its heavier comparative weight and engine size to the Camel would also mean it could easily convert energy gained from a dive to fast climbs too, making it a better BnZ plane.

 

From a game perspective - and this is important - it needs to have decent climb. Combat in WW1 wasn't exactly like it is in the game (or other ww1 sims too for that matter), for example, in 1917 and 1918, surprise and height advantage, and most importantly performance at altitude was, including climbing ability at higher altitudes. I have no doubt that it completely outperformed the Camel in climbing maneouvres at say 15000 ft and above. Rotary engine performance deteriorated significantly at higher altitudes, their major drawback. Flying and fighting at higher altitudes was "the edge" by 1917.

 

So what to do?

 

My approach is that, in a different way, it should be about as effective as a Camel. I'd say this wouldn't be far off the mark. People have always argued about which was the best, and still do. So climb is a bit better than the Camel. I think thats a reasonable way of simulating its real merits.

 

I learnt doing FMs that you can't simulate reality really, because the sim itself doesn't and no sim ever will. So you have to make choices.

 

Of course, apart from all that, I also like flying this plane now, and you know, like shooting things down :).

Edited August 24, 2008 by peter01

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi Peter.

 

Well, with your new FM installed, I've given the SE a thorough going over...I think I can definitely say; you have indeed nailed it!

 

As you say, it just feels right:

 

You've captured the intrinsic stabilty that famously made the SE such an excellent gun platform. It has to be flown properly though...That stability is only achieved with a bit of work. I've found that it's necessary to use both hands on the joystick to get a look through the aldis. But again, this only adds to the authenticity.

 

It handles very well too, now that you've managed to stop that annoying tendency to side slip, inherent in all previous versions.

 

Your new version also brilliantly captures the main SE5a performance characteristics:

It feels sturdy, fast and agile. Although half decent in a turning dogfight, it's definitely not the SE's strongpoint (as in real life)...Boom 'n zoom tactics are the best way to stay alive.

 

All in all Peter, The new SE5a FM is testament to the fantastic contribution you've made to this game.

 

Well done, and thank you very much!

 

Bucky.

 

 

RE: The SE5a climb performance.

Here's a comparison chart, copied from that excellent book 'Aeroplanes Of The Royal Aircraft Factory':

 

SE5a (200hp)........Max speed: 134mph........Ceiling: 22,000ft........Climb (to 10,000ft): 10min 50sec.

Sopwith Camel......Max speed: 113mph........Ceiling: 18,000ft........Climb (to 10,000ft): 11min 45sec.

Albatros D.V.........Max speed: 116mph........Ceiling: 20,500ft........Climb (to 10,000ft): 13min 10sec.

Fokker Dr.I...........Max speed: 103mph........Ceiling: 20,000ft........Climb (to 10,000ft): 10min 55sec.

Fokker D.VII.........Max speed: 117mph........Ceiling: 22,500ft........Climb (to 10,000ft): 11min 20sec.

[+peter01 2]

Thanks Bucky for trying it out, hope it was fun.

 

Good to get another opinion, and seems like its similar to mine too, so thats encouraging.

 

Don't have 'Aeroplanes Of The Royal Aircraft Factory', but seems like its worth getting.

 

Interesting about the Dr1, 103 mph, many books and many sites on the internet stating 115mph. Pretty hard to believe, I wonder how that higher speed was ever accepted.

 

Anyway, thanks again.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Well, to be fair to the Triplane, that chart does seem to be slightly loaded in the SE's favour...I think those max speed figures are meant to represent performance at 10,000ft.

 

In which case: The 200hp Wolseley Viper SE5a's max speed was 134mph at sea level, and 126mph at 10,000ft...Still impressive figures for the time!

 

In 'Fokker Aircraft Of W.W.I', by Paul Leaman, the Dr.I's performance is listed at 115mph at sea level, and 103mph at 10,000ft.

 

On a related note: When talking about the performance figures of WW1 a/c, there's a general (and not unreasonable) perception that the war sped up the advancement of aircraft development. Yet the Royal Aircraft Factory produced the SE4 before the war started in 1914. Designed by Henry Folland to be the fastest aircraft in the world.

 

In June 1914, the SE4 was test flown...It reached a top speed of over 135mph and climbed at 1,600ft per minute!