Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) How close "our" skinners of "Between Heaven and Hell" (*) have got with their art works, can nicely be seen in these two videos about a Fokker Dr.1 triplane. Flight of the Fokker Dr.1 Triplane--Kingsbury Why Not Land Your Fokker Triplane in a Crosswind? A pitty, that the first video has got the soundtrack removed by YouTube. *) thank you, Paarma, OvS, Makai, Sandbagger and Pol Edited March 28, 2009 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted March 28, 2009 Excellent videos Olham, thanks for sharing Sir. And they do indeed illustrate how much homework went into the OFF plane skins. Also, that DR1 pilot was very lucky he did not do more damage to that beauty when the crosswinds got under his bus. CW landings are NO fun in a light aircraft of any kind. Cheers! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameljockey 3 Posted March 28, 2009 Hey Olham, just think what it would have been like had Richthofen and friends had DrIs like this one! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xya_6xEvGd8...feature=related CJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 Could be the same plane, CJ. Here's more from a red Dr.1 test flight and build: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8GtIWp3v1Q...feature=related Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) ...and more: Red Dr.1 over the Missouri Look at the climb after takeoff, and the rudder work at the end (turning flat on a plate). Edited March 28, 2009 by Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameljockey 3 Posted March 28, 2009 Could be the same plane, CJ. Here's more from a red Dr.1 test flight and build: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8GtIWp3v1Q...feature=related Don't think so Olham. The DrI in your video has a rotary engine. The one in my video has a 250hp radial! CJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 So I understand: a rotary is what you call rotating engine; a radial is fixed mounted? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cameljockey 3 Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) Righto! 250hp is over twice the hp of the original Oberursel 110hp! I'd be willing to bet that this one does indeed climb like a monkey. CJ Edited March 28, 2009 by Cameljockey Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Womenfly2 0 Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) NOTE: The Audio has issues. name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="<A href=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>"> name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="<A href=" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> ... the flat rudder turn that Voss used in his last dogfight and the Dr.I was famous for. Starts at frame 1:36. This plane is based at Owls Head Museum and has a Radial engine. I had the privilege of flying this one, once. Enjoy, WF2 Edited March 28, 2009 by Womenfly2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest British_eh Posted March 28, 2009 To cool. Can I add that from the comparisons that I've done, rudimentary perhaps, that I feel the flight characteristics for the P3 DR1 are not perhaps not what I expected. I seem to have trouble with it spinning, a flat spin, and awful stalls which from what I have read, just didn't happen. Once strut/wing failure was sorted out, the only problem seemed to be on take off, and landing with too much throttle, and spinning it into the ground. Thoughts WF2? Cheers, British_eh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RAF_Louvert 101 Posted March 28, 2009 Womenfly2 wrote: I had the privilege of flying this one, once. WF2, I am so envious right now! In fact, there needs to be a new word for just how envious I am actually feeling at this moment because envious just doesn't come close. Think I'll go with "ubermax-envio-licious". You are one lucky woman to have gotten stick time in that ride. WELL DONE M'AM! Cheers and Salute! Lou Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 Wow, you flew this plane, WomenFly2 - perhaps you could give me (and others) some rudder advice? I wrote a new thread asking for this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Womenfly2 0 Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) To cool. Can I add that from the comparisons that I've done, rudimentary perhaps, that I feel the flight characteristics for the P3 DR1 are not perhaps not what I expected. I seem to have trouble with it spinning, a flat spin, and awful stalls which from what I have read, just didn't happen. Once strut/wing failure was sorted out, the only problem seemed to be on take off, and landing with too much throttle, and spinning it into the ground. Thoughts WF2? Cheers, British_eh Well, in the beginning of OFF I made several comments on the FM's to the OFF team, well it seems they had many arm-chair pilots that did the FM and did not use any of my input, o-well its history. Yes I do agree, the FM of the Dr.I in BHaH is not as good as it should be, so-be-it. Very interested in how well RoF has done it. I did the flat turn in her and one needs full airspeed into it, your airspeed bleeds off very quickly in 1/4 of the turn, almost to near stall. If you do it from a shallow dive you can make it 1/2 way around, its amazing. Your body also gets slamed to the side of the cockpit! Once you know the max limits of any aeroplane its amazing what a skilled pilot can do with her, i.e Voss. One must frist get over the fear factor. Then your free. Cheers, WF2 Edited March 28, 2009 by Womenfly2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 Voss definitely was beyond the fear factor. Almost in a suicidal mood, I'd say. Or was it perhaps impossible for a Dr.1 to escape 5 S.E.5a with an advantage of height? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest British_eh Posted March 28, 2009 Voss definitely was beyond the fear factor. Almost in a suicidal mood, I'd say. Or was it perhaps impossible for a Dr.1 to escape 5 S.E.5a with an advantage of height? Opinion: Once the SE5a had completed his dive, he would have to turn to reengage, and thus bleed off his speed. During that time, it would be quite reasonable for the Dr1, to adequately climb away. From what I have read, if you were in a Scout/Fighter, it wasn't to difficult to escape the enemy, if they weren't on your tail. I know that even with TIR, it is difficult to locate the aircraft. If you lose sight of them for 15 seconds, they could be more than 1/4 mile away. Now, if there is cloud, mist, rain, they are gone. Yes WF2. I do remember both of us suggesting some changes to the Dr1. I fly it on Medium and NOT Realistic, as I believe this is truer to it's actual flight model. Maybe I'll even try Easy. It is the only aircraft I do this on. Regards, British_eh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herr Prop-Wasche 7 Posted March 28, 2009 Ruh roh. I hope this doesn't turn into another one of those flame-wars that used to erupt on the RB3d Delphi forum about the correct FM for the DR I! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 28, 2009 Well, I just made my first campaign flight with a Dr.1 (see new thread), and it stalled very easily, when I tried to climb after a SPAD - more, than I would have expected, after all I saw and read. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Todt Von Oben 0 Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) Ruh roh. I hope this doesn't turn into another one of those flame-wars that used to erupt on the RB3d Delphi forum about the correct FM for the DR I! The Dr1 rudder loses authority when landing in the three point position because it is in air disturbed by the fuselage. (I've only flown it a few times in OFF, but I noticed that tendancy more in RB3D than in this game.) In real life, it's better to wheel-land it, hold the tail up as long as you can while maintaining directional control with lively feet; let the aircraft decelerate, and then drop the tail skid as late as possible. So they say, anyway. Crosswinds are why they put the axe-handles under the wingtips. Do any of our aerodromes have windsocks? And Voss could have most certainly escaped by outclimbing his adversaries. He stayed to fight because he wanted to. Prost! TvO Edited March 28, 2009 by Todt Von Oben Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MJmorrow 0 Posted March 29, 2009 (edited) Olham, Yes a great bird flown by many great aviators. I have Russian ancestry. Many years ago your relatives and my relatives fought each other. Your relatives fought very well and it took many nations's aid to help Russia win. Russia would not win on her own. German training was quite impressive. Erich Hartmann is a great example. He killed many of my kind but he fought fairly and he never said a cross word about my people that my people did not ask for. I am so glad that we can admire all of our cultures today without the past weighing us all down. Your people made fine planes for sure. You have a fine culture just as all of the contributors on this forum come from wonderful cultures. Is it not amazing that today we can admire each other when so many times before we lost sight of such things? Best Regards, MJ Edited March 29, 2009 by MJmorrow Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 29, 2009 Hey, MJ Thank you for your kind words. But I think, the war pilots, for example, had mostly already respect for each other in the actual wars. When one pilot shot another down, and he survived, they shared knowledge, brandy and cigarettes - and discovered: that bloke might as well be one from our squadron. The opponents, the real competitors in the big wars were not the common people (who mostly had to fight them). The opponents were rather Mercedes Benz vs Rolls Royce, Messerschmidt vs Hawker, Fokker vs Sopwith, and so on... Haven't seen you here yet, so: welcome. Hope you enjoy our banter and chatter. Are you already airborne in BHaH? Best regards. Olham Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MJmorrow 0 Posted March 29, 2009 Hey, MJThank you for your kind words. But I think, the war pilots, for example, had mostly already respect for each other in the actual wars. When one pilot shot another down, and he survived, they shared knowledge, brandy and cigarettes - and discovered: that bloke might as well be one from our squadron. The opponents, the real competitors in the big wars were not the common people (who mostly had to fight them). The opponents were rather Mercedes Benz vs Rolls Royce, Messerschmidt vs Hawker, Fokker vs Sopwith, and so on... Haven't seen you here yet, so: welcome. Hope you enjoy our banter and chatter. Are you already airborne in BHaH? Best regards. Olham Olham, Thank you for the welcome and very well said regarding the mutual respect of the pilots. I am a long time observer and a new participant in the online forum. I am BHaH ready and able. Great sim. There will always be little things I would like to change about the sim but there are many things I would change about myself too and I am quite happy with myself. What a great experience it is to be high in the clouds in this wonderful OFF universe! Thank you again Olham. Best Regards, MJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Womenfly2 0 Posted March 29, 2009 In real life, it's better to wheel-land it, hold the tail up as long as you can while maintaining directional control with lively feet; let the aircraft decelerate, and then drop the tail skid as late as possible. So they say, anyway. Crosswinds are why they put the axe-handles under the wingtips. Do any of our aerodromes have windsocks? Prost! TvO I have to disagree, it is not better to wheel land the Dr.I in RL. The best approach is to 3-point it in and dig in the tail skid, you want to slow down and stop her as fast as possible. Cross wind had nothing to do with the tip skids. The wing tip skids are due to the high CG the plane has. These planes operated from unimproved fields, they could ground loop easy from hitting a rut or wind gust, matter of fact they all did, but the DR.I's high CG made it worse. So they are there to help protect the lower wing. The plane will also tilt some when taxing and rub a wing tip too, is has a tendency to rock from one side to the other. WF2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Todt Von Oben 0 Posted March 29, 2009 I have to disagree, it is not better to wheel land the Dr.I in RL. The best approach is to 3-point it in and dig in the tail skid, you want to slow down and stop her as fast as possible. Cross wind had nothing to do with the tip skids. The wing tip skids are due to the high CG the plane has. These planes operated from unimproved fields, they could ground loop easy from hitting a rut or wind gust, matter of fact they all did, but the DR.I's high CG made it worse. So they are there to help protect the lower wing. The plane will also tilt some when taxing and rub a wing tip too, is has a tendency to rock from one side to the other. WF2 Hi WF2! :yes: While I agree that a well-executed flair and three point touchdown are the fastest way to stop just about any taildragger, under many circumstances that's not the best way to go. In the real world, the safest landing method is the best landing method. Things like wind gusts, crosswinds, rough runways, windshear, irregular thermals generated by varied terrain materials in the approach and runway environments, unfamiliar airports, any conditions affecting depth perception, pilot fatigue, and more, can play hob with any landing. Accordingly, in most circumstances, it is more-often-than-not safer to fly a taildragger onto the wheels at a speed where the control surfaces still have authority, and the transition back into flight (either to salvage a botched touchdown a bit further down the runway, or to do an emergency go-around) is more quickly, easily, and safely accomplished, than it is from the slower, fully-flaired (and more committed) three-point landing configuration. My reference to the axe handles in crosswinds had to do with the Youtube video at the start of this thread; sorry if I didn't make that clear. I agree: there are many reasons why taildraggers groundloop. I think you're right about the Dr.1 being "tall" as planes of that general size go; and clearly the axehandles are there to protect in any condition that might drag a wingtip. But generally speaking, I wouldn't try to three point a taildragger in a crosswind; that's asking for a groundloop. What worked for me was to transition with a crab-kick and land the wheels in this order: upwind main, tailwheel, downwind main; using the control surfaces to counter the crosswind effect while decelerating aerodynamically. That said: I don't think the crab-kick method described in the paragraph above would be advisable for a Dr.1. As you pointed out: those aircraft were designed for pasture pilots. In a flat open field with enough available room, a pilot can usually land pretty much into the wind. Under those conditions, a flair to three point touchdown followed by controlled back pressure on the stick would aerodynamically decelerate the aircraft while digging the skid into the ground, thereby stopping the plane in the shortest distance. No doubt about that. But again, the safest method is the best method. And factoring in all the other "gremlins" that might make my perfect three point landing less than perfect, if I were landing a Dr.1 (or a J-3 Cub) into the wind right now, all things considered, I'd be safer over a broader range of landing conditions and possibilities if I were to wheel land it: keeping the control surfaces up in the wind where they retain maximum available control authority, before letting them fall into the burble where their effectiveness is diminished. I respect your opinion and experience. I find your statement regarding the three-point method essentially correct as far as it goes; but not in the greater context of it being the "best" method, especially when contrasted against the broad range of flight conditions and circumstances existing in the real world. Of course, methods of landing taildraggers is a subject pilots have debated for ages; and I know from experience we'll find others to agree with either of us. But that's part of the fun of forums like this one. :yes: Prost! TvO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Todt Von Oben 0 Posted March 29, 2009 (edited) P.S. But after taking the time to write and post the above, flying a game, and coming back, it just occurred to me that when I'm flying OFF, I ALWAYS go for the three point touchdown. Oh well! As Emily Latella (Gilda Radner) used to say: "Nevermind!" Prost! TvO Edited March 29, 2009 by Todt Von Oben Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olham 164 Posted March 29, 2009 This is developing to a nice "pilot's banter and chatter" here - great stuff! Although being a non-pilot, I personally thought, when I saw the tip down of the right wing: Well, so what? The whole plane is dancing on these wings in the air, and at sudden, vast pull-ups or tight turns, an enormous power must work on these wings. So, what should this little touchin daisies do to them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
