Dan San Abbott's info on the Fokker E.V - DVIII

[Olham 164]

Questions about the Fokker E.V and DVIII

Hi, everyone

Being a "brandnew member" here, I hope I may ask you some questions about the Fokker E.V and the DVIII.

Please only answer, when you really KNOW; also links to info would be great for me.

Here are my questions:

 

1. When did the earliest E.V enter front service, and in which Jastas?

2. Did the DVIII ever enter front service, and if so, when and in which Jastas?

3. Did Erich Loewenhardt ever fly this craft in combat?

4. If he did: in which Jasta? And did he make kills in it?

 

I read somewhere, Loewenhardt had flown it, and even scored victories. But then I heard from others, that

was not the case. So, what is true?

 

Thank's a lot in advance! Olham

 

Dan_San_Abbott's answer

 

Hello Olham:

Welcome to the Forum.

1. The first 4 batches accepted on, 3, 8, 9 and 11 July, totaling 12 E.V went to Jasta 19 on or about the 25 July 1918.

They were in serial number range of E.110/18 to E.128/18.

2. The second group of 12, with acceptance dates of 12, 16,17 and 18 July 1918, with serial numbers range of E.121/18

to to E.154/18, went to Jasta 6 on or about 2 August 1918.

3. The third batch from 19, 20, 23, 25 and 26 July 1918 in the serial number range of E.138/18 to 168/18.

There were a few serial numbers that went to Jasta 6, they were E.155/18, E.156/18 and and E.157/18. This group went

to the II and III Marine Feld Jagdstaffeln and to its Kommandeur, Ltn.z.See Gotthard Sachsenberg.

4. The fourth bunch went to Jasta 24s, from the acceptance dates of 27 and30 July. This group arrived Jasta 24s around

12 August 1918.

5. fok.e.V machines accepted on 31 July and 1 August went to Jasta 36 These were in the serial number range of , E.308/18,

E.124/18, E.185/18 to E.193/18.

6. The next group I believe went to Jasta 1. These 9 E.V machines were accepted on 2 August with a serial number range of

E.140/18 to E.196/18.

 

I believe machines were shipped to Jasta 8 also, I am predicating this on the E.V with the white and dark colored , maybe red

lateral stripes on the tailplane and the snake on the sides of the fuselage. However I don't know the serial number of that E.V.

 

According to a photograph, Oblt. Erich Loewenhardt did fly a Jasta 6 Fok. E.V 146/18. To my knowledge he did not fly one in

combat. At the time he was flying a BMW powered Fok.D.VII in the serial range of D.4200/18 to D.4250/18.

The Fok.E.V was grounded on 19 August, and all the Jagdstaffeln equipped with the Fok.E.V to remove the wing to ensure they

were not flown, and they were to be returned to the appropriate Armee Flugpark.

There is no record of any Fok.E.V with the new wing or the new designated Fok.D.VIII being returned to service after the

acceptance of the new wings.

 

The Fok.D.VIII with the 145 Ps Oberursel URIII or the 160 Ps Goebel Goe.III engines would have been as fast as anything the

Allies were using or planning to use in 1919. It they put the Roots type superchargers on them the Allies would really have their

hands full they could have gone to 30,000 ft.

Interesting spectulation, that's all!.

Blue skies Olham,

Dan-San

[OvS 8]

Questions about the Fokker E.V and DVIII

Hi, everyone

Being a "brandnew member" here, I hope I may ask you some questions about the Fokker E.V and the DVIII.

Please only answer, when you really KNOW; also links to info would be great for me.

Here are my questions:

 

1. When did the earliest E.V enter front service, and in which Jastas?

2. Did the DVIII ever enter front service, and if so, when and in which Jastas?

3. Did Erich Loewenhardt ever fly this craft in combat?

4. If he did: in which Jasta? And did he make kills in it?

 

I read somewhere, Loewenhardt had flown it, and even scored victories. But then I heard from others, that

was not the case. So, what is true?

 

Thank's a lot in advance! Olham

 

Dan_San_Abbott's answer

 

Hello Olham:

Welcome to the Forum.

1. The first 4 batches accepted on, 3, 8, 9 and 11 July, totaling 12 E.V went to Jasta 19 on or about the 25 July 1918.

They were in serial number range of E.110/18 to E.128/18.

2. The second group of 12, with acceptance dates of 12, 16,17 and 18 July 1918, with serial numbers range of E.121/18

to to E.154/18, went to Jasta 6 on or about 2 August 1918.

3. The third batch from 19, 20, 23, 25 and 26 July 1918 in the serial number range of E.138/18 to 168/18.

There were a few serial numbers that went to Jasta 6, they were E.155/18, E.156/18 and and E.157/18. This group went

to the II and III Marine Feld Jagdstaffeln and to its Kommandeur, Ltn.z.See Gotthard Sachsenberg.

4. The fourth bunch went to Jasta 24s, from the acceptance dates of 27 and30 July. This group arrived Jasta 24s around

12 August 1918.

5. fok.e.V machines accepted on 31 July and 1 August went to Jasta 36 These were in the serial number range of , E.308/18,

E.124/18, E.185/18 to E.193/18.

6. The next group I believe went to Jasta 1. These 9 E.V machines were accepted on 2 August with a serial number range of

E.140/18 to E.196/18.

 

I believe machines were shipped to Jasta 8 also, I am predicating this on the E.V with the white and dark colored , maybe red

lateral stripes on the tailplane and the snake on the sides of the fuselage. However I don't know the serial number of that E.V.

 

According to a photograph, Oblt. Erich Loewenhardt did fly a Jasta 6 Fok. E.V 146/18. To my knowledge he did not fly one in

combat. At the time he was flying a BMW powered Fok.D.VII in the serial range of D.4200/18 to D.4250/18.

The Fok.E.V was grounded on 19 August, and all the Jagdstaffeln equipped with the Fok.E.V to remove the wing to ensure they

were not flown, and they were to be returned to the appropriate Armee Flugpark.

There is no record of any Fok.E.V with the new wing or the new designated Fok.D.VIII being returned to service after the

acceptance of the new wings.

 

The Fok.D.VIII with the 145 Ps Oberursel URIII or the 160 Ps Goebel Goe.III engines would have been as fast as anything the

Allies were using or planning to use in 1919. It they put the Roots type superchargers on them the Allies would really have their

hands full they could have gone to 30,000 ft.

Interesting spectulation, that's all!.

Blue skies Olham,

Dan-San

 

Great stuff and very helpful. The serial numbers are important to me especially. But again, this contradicts everything else on the I-net I read about the D.VIII. Many suggest it actually did see service in late October, around the 23 and into the end of the war. Having said that, is it majority, or DSA? That's the tough question. He's very, very good and much of his info is spot on if not perfect. But, unless he has absolute access to all German documents and references to the aircraft distribution, it's speculative at best.

 

I'd rather see the D.VIII flying, even if it's stretching the truth. Imagine the fight between the D.VIII and the Snipe? Just for the sake of it, maybe we'll have it in at the end of October as has been suggested and call it 'inconclusive'.

 

OvS

[Olham 164]

Yes, I absolutely agree - as long as it might have been so, I would also like to see it in BHaH.

And even my "enemies" like Widowmaker would want an equally well equipped opponent for their Snipe.

Am I right, Widow?

[Rickitycrate 10]

"I'd rather see the D.VIII flying, even if it's stretching the truth. Imagine the fight between the D.VIII and the Snipe? Just for the sake of it, maybe we'll have it in at the end of October as has been suggested and call it 'inconclusive'."

 

OvS

I agree. BH&H is historic and there is enough fact in my mind to allow for the D.VIII to fly and be flown. I vote yes. Let's honor the work involved and enjoy ourselves.

 

Thanks to Dan-San Abbott for his kind and learned reponse to Herr Olham.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Rickitycrate

[Olham 164]

I have now sent an E-mail to the Deutsche Luftwaffe about these questions, and asked for their help,

or at least for info, where I could find the data.

[Dej 17]

It's the closing stages of the War and Germany is on her last legs. A spiffing new crate is delivered to your Jasta that'll run rings around anything the Crumpets and their allies have... but you're not allowed to fly it.

 

Are you going to pay attention to that, or did you notice the CO wink when he told you? In any case, the mechanics will turn a blind eye and so will the Recording Officer (whatever the German equivalent is) if you slip him a few DMs.

 

Who's to say they weren't flown but not 'recorded as flown'?

[Hasse Wind 46]

These questions could be most accurately answered by someone who has access to both Fokker archives and German military archives. Especially the archives of the Luftstreitkräfte's war materiel department or whatever it was would be very helpful. But I guess it would be too much to hope that somebody with such documents in hand would join this forum and provide the devs with all possible data available.

[Rickitycrate 10]

Something tells me Herr Olham will get to the bottom of this matter. Cheers to him.

[Olham 164]

Right, Rickity, I also mailed to "Militärhistorisches Institut Potsdam", and the people, who run

Fokker now. In all cases I asked for useful addresses, in case, they couldn't help directly.

 

Still though, I don't expect too much coming in. They would have to dig for it.

Maybe, I would have to visit Militärhistorisches Institut Potsdam, and see, if i can get access to

their archive. Still difficult, if you don't know where to search, you know?

[Rickitycrate 10]

Best wishes Olham. And it may be a fun excerise as well.

[Creaghorn 10]

i would love to see it as historical accurate as possible.

IMHO if only because in midoctober a single VIII was making a 5 minute testflight 200km away from the front, i would not like to meet whole formations of them over nomandsland, pretending they were there in that period and state it as historical accurate. rather dismissing them and use them only in quickflight. if there were a handful in combat, there should be a handful. but only because somebody wants to see snipes vs. VIIIs (which, by the way would be cool to see) i would not like to stretch the truth. this sim is about historical accuracy. i would also like to see tripes against dr1s, but since they never met i have to do it via quickflight. and so is the snipes and VIIIs.

if it's accurate there were some numbers for two weeks, then they should be there for two weeks. IMHO there are lot of other, more important aircraft which were at the scene in large numbers, and are missing yet.

[Rickitycrate 10]

i would love to see it as historical accurate as possible.

IMHO if only because in midoctober a single VIII was making a 5 minute testflight 200km away from the front, i would not like to meet whole formations of them over nomandsland, pretending they were there in that period and state it as historical accurate. rather dismissing them and use them only in quickflight. if there were a handful in combat, there should be a handful. but only because somebody wants to see snipes vs. VIIIs (which, by the way would be cool to see) i would not like to stretch the truth. this sim is about historical accuracy. i would also like to see tripes against dr1s, but since they never met i have to do it via quickflight. and so is the snipes and VIIIs.

if it's accurate there were some numbers for two weeks, then they should be there for two weeks. IMHO there are lot of other, more important aircraft which were at the scene in large numbers, and are missing yet.

 

Your point is well taken.

[Olham 164]

For the E.V I think it's waterproof that it saw the front service, even if for short. The DVIII, I'm investigating,

but it doesn't seem there where many craft at the front - if at all.

And I understand you well, Creaghorn, and agree for the historical accuracy.

 

Maybe a compromise could look like this: Entente pilots meet only so many E.V in their campaigns, and only

in the regions where it flew, as would be historically accurat.

And the German pilot could always start his campaign in those Jastas, which had the E.V or even the DVIII,

and enjoy that craft until it gets withdrawn.

Does that make sense?

Edited June 24, 2009 by Olham

[OvS 8]

For the E.V I think it's waterproof that it saw the front service, even if for short. The DVIII, I'm investigating,

but it doesn't seem there where many craft at the front - if at all.

And I understand you well, Creaghorn, and agree for the historical accuracy.

 

Maybe a compromise could look like this: Entente pilots meet only so many E.V in their campaigns, and only

in the regions where it flew, as would be historically accurat.

And the German pilot could always start his campaign in those Jastas, which had the E.V or even the DVIII,

and enjoy that craft until it gets withdrawn.

Does that make sense?

 

I really think we need to investigate the 'life' of the D.VIII further just to verify everything DSA has stated... then decided. If it's all accurate, then no D.VIII... if speculation, then we can speculate as well.

 

OvS

[Creaghorn 10]

as far as i have researched, different sources (various non-english wikipedia entries, luftfahrtgeschichte.com...) say the DVIII arrived at about 24.0ct. and the maximum number were 85 at the front. so it might happen to see one in the last 3 weeks of the war. but not too many at once and for too long. but better sources to verify it would be very helpful.

[Hasse Wind 46]

Knowing how meticulous the German military and civilian administration has always been, I'm absolutely sure there are documents available somewhere that could easily solve these questions. Maybe you'll have luck Olham, but I think they may well give you some advice and expect you to come and do the research yourself in some archive, if that's possible. I doubt they'll give you any detailed information for free if it requires a lot of work on their part.

 

I agree with Creaghorn, we've all come to expect the greatest possible historical accuracy from OFF and don't want to see any ahistorical situations in the campaign. But that doesn't prevent using aircraft in the quick combat, so the more planes to fly the better. And whatever the outcome of all this will be, I'm sure we'll be getting many other planes to fly, planes that most certainly did serve long in the war and in great numbers. :yes:

[Olham 164]

Got some more answers/info on the Aerodrome - nice people there.

 

Hi Olham, and welcome to the Forum;

 

If you re-read Aquilius' post, you'll see that he does name his source for his statements: the excellent book

Fokker Flugzeugwerke in Deutschland 1912-1921 by Peter M. Grosz and Volker Koos.

It's the best single volume available on all Fokker aircraft of WWI.

 

Yes, as Dan-San says, Erich Loewenhardt of Jasta 10 did briefly test-fly E.V 146/18 of Jasta 6 on a test-hop.

But that's all he did. This photo is supposed to show Loewenhardt aloft in the E.V.

 

The photo is so well known that some folks leaped to the conclusion that Loewenhardt must have this this

airplane in combat ....and scored in it. That's not correct.

__________________

Greg VanWyngarden

 

 

Peter M. Grosz und Volker Koos

Die Fokker Flugzeugwerke in Deutschland 1912-1921

Typenbücher Deutsche Luftfahrt, Bd.2

Heel Verlag GmbH, Königswinter, 2004. Hardcover, 136 S.

ISBN 3898803554

 

Regards,

Yavor

Edited June 25, 2009 by Olham

[Hasse Wind 46]

Very interesting stuff, Olham! It's amazing to see these rare photos emerge from the mists of history.

 

That book seems to be available on Amazon.de. I think I'm going to order it.

[Olham 164]

That would be great, Hasse Wind, as I'm already saving for the upgrade of my rig!

Perhaps you can look up the desired info then?

 

For me, it looks like an odyssee has only just begun. Here are the answering mails; at least with new addresses.

But both say, they don't have any data about these craft in their archives.

 

 

 

Dear Mr. Mahlo,

 

Unfortunately we do not have any information regarding the mentioned Fokker Aircraft.

Fokker Services is the Type Certificate Holder for the post WW aircraft; F27 / F28 /

F50 / F70 / F100.

We provide services for the Fokker aircraft of this type in operation.

 

Unfortunately I am not aware of other companies who may still have documentation on

these aircraft, good luck with your research.

 

Kind regards,

 

Bart Geurten

Account Support Manager - Technical Services

 

Fokker Services

Lucas Bolsstraat 7

P.O. Box 231. 2150 AE

Nieuw Vennep, The Netherlands

Tel.: +31 (0)252 62 74 07

Fax: +31 (0) 252 62 72 11

www.myfokkerfleet.com

 

 

Sehr geehrter Herr Mahlo,

 

vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage. In den Beständen des Militärhistorischen Museums der Bundeswehr

sind keine Aufzeichnungen, Materialien etc. zur Fokker E.V und DVIII nachgewiesen.

 

Eventuell könnten sich Unterlagen bei folgenden Institutionen befinden:

Stadtarchiv Schwerin

Johannes-Stelling-Straße 2

19053 Schwerin

0385 562970

 

Staatsarchiv Schwerin

Graf-Schack-Allee 2

19053 Schwerin

0385 59296-0

 

Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv

Wiesentalstraße 10

79115 Freiburg

 

 

Mit freundlichem Gruß

Im Auftrag

 

Anett Rauer

BblOI'in

Militärhistorisches Museum der Bundeswehr

Fachinformationsstelle

Olbrichtplatz 2

01099 Dresden

Tel. 0351 / 8232815

www.mhm.bundeswehr.de

Edited June 25, 2009 by Olham

[Hasse Wind 46]

I just got the book Fokker Flugzeugwerke in Deutschland 1912 - 1921 by Peter M. Grosz and Volker Koos and instantly read the pages about the E.V/D.VIII. The book confirms the information Olham got from that site about the first deliveries of the E.V to the Jastas in July 1918. (Grosz and Koos have researched the original historical Fokker and military documents for their book, so the information should be very reliable.)

 

The authors haven't found any evidence from any archival records about the D.VIII being used in combat. The planes that were delivered were in the Army aircraft parks on the Armistice day, just like all the E.V that were withdrawn from service in August after the fatal accidents on 16th and 19th August and were waiting for necessary repairs for their wings. In total 335 E.V/D.VIII were ordered and 289 were built. German aircraft industry had serious difficulties in those last few weeks of the war, so not all the planes received similar engines (two Oberursels were in use, one with 160 hp, the other 110). An official army situation report from October 31, 1918 mentions only 85 monoplanes available in the aircraft parks.

 

So it seems the E.V was in very limited use only for a few weeks, and if anybody scored any victories with the type, there couldn't have been many before the planes were withdrawn. A lot of legends without any historical basis seem to surround this fighter.

 

I can recommend this book to anybody with an interest in WW1 aircraft. Even if you don't speak German, there are plenty of rare Fokker photographs printed on the pages.

[Olham 164]

Thank you for that info, Hasse Wind. I may get that book later, too. Right now, I have started to read

the "Tagebuch der Jagdstaffel 12", with great pictures and facts.

[SirMike1983 3]

I think he overestimates the potential speed performance of the D.VIII. The French N.29 was concurrently on the way to the front in late 1918 and capable reaching speeds well over 140 mph, with very fast and robust dives surpassing the Spad 13 even. I wonder as to whether a D.VIII could match that speed and robustness. Though certainly the D.VIII would have been a formidable opponent on the whole. I think his views are generally right, though I am not so sure about performance speculation. As for whether they actually saw true service, I don't know.

Edited July 8, 2009 by SirMike1983

[SirMike1983 3]

I really think we need to investigate the 'life' of the D.VIII further just to verify everything DSA has stated... then decided. If it's all accurate, then no D.VIII... if speculation, then we can speculate as well.

 

OvS

 

Maybe it would be possible to do a single campaign with a squad or two on each side simulating a "what if" type of thing spanning into early 1919. You could use Snipes and Fokker D.VIIIs in the hands of a couple elite squadrons. The other aircraft around you'd just use a continuation of Oct-Nov 1918. The what if campaign might only last a month or two and be more a minor afterthought sort of thing. Maybe throw the N.29 and Siemens D series in too if that ever appears.

[OvS 8]

Maybe it would be possible to do a single campaign with a squad or two on each side simulating a "what if" type of thing spanning into early 1919. You could use Snipes and Fokker D.VIIIs in the hands of a couple elite squadrons. The other aircraft around you'd just use a continuation of Oct-Nov 1918. The what if campaign might only last a month or two and be more a minor afterthought sort of thing. Maybe throw the N.29 and Siemens D series in too if that ever appears.

 

 

As much as we do not want to veer from history, it's tough for us not to bend it a little... by a week. It has a lot to do with the amount of time and energy that is put into modeling and skinning. We want you to be able to see the pieces and fly them. So it's not firm, but being considered. I for one am OK with it just for this one plane. If it ends up in the sky for the last week of the war... well.. why not. By then, if you've survived it, as a German pilot, you can get you last dig in with it, for a British/French/American pilot, it would be the ultimate trophy for your collection. We've done our very best to be as accurate as humanly (and 'PCerly') possible. We can bend a little.

 

OvS

[SirMike1983 3]

As much as we do not want to veer from history, it's tough for us not to bend it a little... by a week. It has a lot to do with the amount of time and energy that is put into modeling and skinning. We want you to be able to see the pieces and fly them. So it's not firm, but being considered. I for one am OK with it just for this one plane. If it ends up in the sky for the last week of the war... well.. why not. By then, if you've survived it, as a German pilot, you can get you last dig in with it, for a British/French/American pilot, it would be the ultimate trophy for your collection. We've done our very best to be as accurate as humanly (and 'PCerly') possible. We can bend a little.

 

OvS

 

I'd throw it in and leave it up to the user if he wants to fly it. It was in RB1, missing from the other RB games out of the box. I thought it was a cool late war addition along with the Siemens in RB1.

 

That said it should probably represent E.V type performance in terms it having the lower power engine rather than the "what if" high power rotaries that were proposed.

Edited July 8, 2009 by SirMike1983