History Channel "Dogfights" Program

[Kingkat 1]

This evening, on the History Channel, they have a program called, "Dogfights". It featured 3 very good fights from WW1. It uses a Flight Sim/ PC type game to illustrate the what is happening along with good narration. Anyone know what flight/sim it uses?

 

The first was the infamous fight, Voss vs The Flight of 56 Sq. SE5a. If the show is accurate (as I assume it is) the flying ability of Voss was phenomenal. It demonstarted the 'flat180' turn he used. His instincts were superb, and may have demonstrated that HE was not only the finest fighter pilot of the German Air Service but perhaps the War. He encountered 8 SE5a that day. Having shot down the first 2,then engaged then next 6 alone. Interestingly, an ALB came along and tried to help him out. Literally got in his way a lot, and eventually was shot down too. Unfortunately, after what seemed like an eternity, Voss was finally wounded, and crashed. A sad day for the Germans. As I said, if this is an accurate depiction of the events, HE was absolutely the best there was. And he was only 20 years old!

 

The next was American ace, Ray Brooks. His SPAD XIII encountered about 12 or so Fk DV VII...! Like Voss, he engaged all of them, staying in the middle and flying all over the place. I believe he downed around FOUR aircraft, and then as he began to dive away from the DV VII, they broke off and headed for home. He used some "New" type of ammo, I think they called it 'incendiary bullets' !!!!!

 

There was a third, Udet vs Guynemer. Good flying, and after Udet's guns jammed, the gallant Frenchman flew by, waved and flew for home.

 

A great program. After watching how well Voss flew.............................

[Olham 164]

Hey, Kingkat - what's the arms in your avatar from?

I love white/black/yellow combined; surely would look good on a bird.

[Guest rscsjsuso5]

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj7bPQXEUfo

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg8Wa1fMfQE

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmPbT9UUvkc

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdLwBwZZsA8

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qljc_g_CNE4

 

video of history channel dogfight program of what u guys are looking/talking about enjoy and fly high and fly proud and get your guns ready

[HotNess 2]

I have these in a dvd set that over here in uk you can in cheapo bookstore for just £4.99 for em all...i love the one about the isrealie pilot who took on a fair few enemys..i cant remeber his name,or the year,or where..(well isreal i guess huhuhu)...but to me this postand the one im describing makes total sense..if it doesnt to you..then omg whats wrong with ya..!!!!.

 

i will admit i havnt watched thw ww1 one as of yet

 

xx V xx

[Kingkat 1]

 

 

Thanks Olham. I found it on the internet, somewhere, it supposed to be a Teutonic Knight Symbol. I thought it looked rather good myself. And yes I thought they would look really cool on a kite too. Maybe a black and yellow stripped pattern on a DV VII, . (Teutonic Knights being Germanic descent and all.)

 

Unfortunately, very few programs about the air war cover the Great War. This is one of the first I have ever seen that covers it fairly well. I looked up Voss,and found the program was very accurate. These guys knows their stuff!

Other programs of a more modern story, actually have interviewed the pilots engaged in the dogfights. Very good .

.

 

Sorry about the size.........didnot realize how big they were.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Kingkat

[Guest rscsjsuso5]

http://www.youtube.c...ser/tsuri19#g/u

 

viet vs us , israel v arab

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogfights_%28TV_series%29

 

search youtube very educational i would watch the series again and mod away

Edited January 27, 2010 by rscsjsuso5

[UnknownPilot 33]

I've long held that Voss was the best, NOT MvR.

 

It can be argued lots of ways of course, but Voss was more into knife fighting and had those skills. Just about anyone can slash and run. Yet, having said that, it takes a disciplined mind to keep to it, and to also regocnize the validity and power of BnZ.

 

One could also argue that MvR was better because he lasted longer, letting him get his extra kills. But then there is luck too. Perhaps it was just luck that pulled Voss's card sooner.

 

On his fatal flight, MvR was indeed not very disciplined, nor overly skillful either (for one of such reputation and kill list). I can't help but think that would have gone very differnetly if it were Voss at the controls.

 

 

In the end, I think it's just 2 sides. Voss seemed more hot-headed and more of a glory hound, where MvR was a hunter/sniper who just got injured and also grew tired of the war. If you could combine the 2 (or better yet, combine Voss and Boelcke without the bad luck either suffered), I think you'd have a one man army that could have single handedly extended Bloody April until the allies ran out of planes.

 

 

Your post says 1:54 am, when was "this evening"? I'd love to see that episode on my TV. It wasn't on last night (Tuesday), and I'm not sure what the schedule is tonight.....

 

 

 

Edit, just checked - it's not on History or Hist Int. tonight. In fact, nothing good is.

Edited January 27, 2010 by UnknownPilot

[Kingkat 1]

I posted rather late last evening............at MY age can't sleep as much as I used too.......... It was on the History Channel last evening, around 8pm,CST here Tennessee. Just happened to catch it,was channel surfing.....which drives the wifey nuts............ ........can tell a good show in less than 3 seconds! (if it ain't got nekked ladies......it ain't good!.....

 

 

Above post has the link to YOU Tube with the show. Its all there.

I have begun to think also that Voss might have been the best too. MvR always waited for opportunity, then struck his victim. He disdained aerobatics and claimed to never having done a loop. He was more 'death from above' secure the kill and fly away to fight another day. I am not sure that length of service has more to do with skill, or just plain ol' luck!

Voss was more of what you said a knife fighter. Why he stayed in that 6 vs 1 scenario..........he wanted to push HIS envelope to the max. He was that sure of his skills. I doubt MvR would have even attempted to begin the fight, or rather would have climbed away to survive after not having shot down any opponents. Just my opinions.

 

I watched it again today. Almost too good to be true. But then again, as a writer once said, writing fiction is harder than truth...........FICTION has to make sense!

[Olham 164]

Well, it is the never ending debate: WHY did Voss take on the fight?

 

From what I saw about the situation, I believe he had no other chance really.

With 5 or 6 S.E.5a much higher, coming down on him, and those craft already being

much faster than the Dr.1, even without that dive, he could only

 

- go into a steep dive to escape - which wouldn't have got him very far

- try to climb away from them (which is useles, as long as some S.E.5 would wait above)

- or fight, which he did as maybe the best choice in such a turn devil

 

His best chance would have been, to damage all craft enough, to be able to escape them,

and maybe down one or two.

Since all craft where hit, I think that is what he tried. A slim chance it was...

[Javito1986 14]

His best chance would have been, to damage all craft enough, to be able to escape them,

and maybe down one or two.

Since all craft where hit, I think that is what he tried. A slim chance it was...

 

 

He could have done it too though, that's the thing. It's just pure luck that he didn't. ALL the SE5s were hit as you say, the Brits were lucky none of them were hit severely. Had Voss so much as critically damaged a few of those SE5s with those hits he landed the others might have cut and run.

[Kingkat 1]

That's exactly what I had tought too, maybe just bloody their noses enough to make them cut and run.

Like the Brooks dogfight, he survived because he shot down 4 a/c, they got scared and flew away. Only got credited w/2 kills.

 

Voss absolutely out flew his opponents, many were aces too. And yes, he put rounds into every SE5a that day! That they were not shot down is astonishing, given Voss' skill.

 

Did the 56Sqd. ever recount if they KNEW it was him before the enagement? Or did they realize it only after he crashed? Did not remember that from the show.

Then again, its why MvR had the "red" triplane. Make sure the enemy knew who they was up against, even before they thought to engage.

 

 

Like Ali..................you KNEW he was gonna wup ya'z...........HE knew it ...................and HE knew that YOU knew it too!

 

Still a very sad encounter. So young.

[Javito1986 14]

Yea exactly. I've always maintained that the BRITISH were the lucky ones in that fight :-)

 

 

ps. McCudden said after that they KNEW they'd just fought one of the greatest German pilots and guessed correctly that it may have been Voss. I'm looking for the exact quote as we speak but I remember him saying that.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Javito1986

[Olham 164]

Kingkat: That they were not shot down is astonishing, given Voss' skill.

Well, seeing the circumstances - Voss must have jumped and bumped and turned like a

helter skelter to get out of so many opponents' gunsights - I find it asthonishing, that he hit some.

The rest is good or bad luck. How lethal are the hits. MvR had bullet holes in his flying suit often.

He also fetched a round out of one boot. The man must have had ten guardian angels!

So, as long as you don't place fatal shots, those S.E.5 keep chasing you.

 

Here's what "The Aerodrome" has about that fight:

 

"Capt. J. McCudden, No. 56 Squadron ... saw a S.E.5a fighting a triplane, so with others dived at it,

and for the next ten minutes the enemy triplane fought the five S.E.5s with great skill and determination.

Eventually, however, it was destroyed by 2nd-Lieut. Rhys Davids of the same squadron, who had previously

driven down a two-seater. . .The triplane was seen to crash in our lines by other pilots and the other occupant

proved to be Lieut. Werner Voss, who was killed." Royal Flying Corps Communique

 

"I shall never forget my admiration for that German pilot, who single handed, fought seven of us for ten minutes . . .

I saw him go into a fairly steep dive and so I continued to watch, and then saw the triplane hit the ground and disappear

into a thousand fragments, for it seemed to me that it literally went into powder." James McCudden

 

"His flying was wonderful, his courage magnificent and in my opinion he is the bravest German airman

whom it has been my privilege to see fight." James McCudden

 

"If I could only have brought him down alive..." Arthur Rhys Davids to James McCudden

[Kingkat 1]

I believe that Voss knew (much like Brook in his fight) that he was safest from enemy fire while inside the circle. He knew he could only be fired upon by a few planes at a time. They had to take care NOT to shoot down their own. Remember he did down 2 planes earlier that day, and 2 from the 56 SQd., were so badly shot up they were write-offs.

 

The more you think about it, it was as IF Voss was taunting the flyers, making them fly to HIS plan. Maybe being 20 had something to do with it. He was young, brash and thought he would live forever. And unlike MvR, he enjoyed aerobatics and flying about. Using the advantage of his DR1 in combat. Must have really pissed the 56Sqd. to no end. Took those "aces" over 10 minutes to take him down.

And then it was a 2-on-1 scenario that did bring him down. One on his tail, and the other ( I believe Rhys-Davids) raked his side as he flew past.

 

It might have been the 'high water mark' of the air war. At least for the German side.

 

I just purchased his bio, 'September Evening: The Life and Final Combat of The German WW1 Ace Verner Voss' by B Diggens. Looking foward to this read.

 

 

BTW: I am gonna fire up the game and LEARN that flat turn.............

[Javito1986 14]

I think Voss was just a pragmatist. He was in a Dr.I facing down a squadron of SE5s. He was in a bad position and his aircraft wasn't capable of escaping. Turning and attacking was the best and, ironically, safest thing for him to do. His only chance really was to blow a hole through the opposition and escape and he almost pulled it off IMHO.

[Olham 164]

Kingkat: I am gonna fire up the game and LEARN that flat turn...

 

No way - the sim's underlying flight model cannot reproduce that "Flat Turn".

It was discussed on this forum before.

There where two or three ways to make a flight model for sims, and if I remember that

right, we fly a "table model".

(Forgive me, when my memory fails me, Gremlin, and please explain it again!)

 

However - we cannot perform that maneuver. A pity, but what can you do?

Well, you can do many other crazy moves with the Dr.1.

 

I have managed to shoot down 5 S.E.5a in that phantastic kite.

(Well, of course they where no Rhys-Davids or Mannocks surely!)

[Kingkat 1]

WELL................phooey then!!!!! That's too bad really.......

 

BTW I am getting an Error Message that the Overide Files didnt configure and I need to reinstall OFF...................HELP!!!!

 

Game starts......but will not allow campaign or quick combat or anything.

[Olham 164]

You should try to "Reset CFS3" in "Workshop" (but it will delete all your pilots!).

[Kingkat 1]

I'll give that a go. Thanks............

[Olham 164]

Another thing, that happens to me recently again and again:

 

I go to campaign briefing, there I "go to field", but get kicked back to first briefing window.

THAT is a clear sign of resolution gone wrong.

Go to "Graphic config" then and check the resolution setting.

If it's gone wrong, put it right, and now you should get into the campaign.

It's an old mistake I had thought was overcome - but no.

[Javito1986 14]

You can do some amazing tight turns with some of the fighters in this game. I don't know about a 180 flat like Voss did but... a few days ago I was in a Nieuport 17 with an Albatross D.II or D.III on my tail. Made an incredibly tight turn using full right rudder that made the whole plane whine like a newborn baby and gave me those "excess stress" warnings but lo' and behold the Albatross flew right by me and the only reason I wasn't able to shoot it head on was because I have horrible accuracy with guns in this sim

[Kingkat 1]

Thanks Olham. The other item worked. Reset the CFS3 files. Got it going.

 

Oh I believe the flight modelling in this game is wonderful.

Seems to have a good balance of skill and planes abilities. Still takes some skill as a pilot.........(need alittle BLUE pill for that)

 

See You In The Skys

[Olham 164]

The skill took me about half a year to develop, Kingkat.

So take the time it needs - and don't be frustrated, if you won't have big

immediate successes - the sim wouldn't be as good as it is, if you could.