SF2 Series DACT Reports And Related A2A Discussions (Game only)

[cougar_1979 37]

You should try the Rafale, that'll give you a workout for sure, and quite honestly would like to see how it handles against the F-14.

I would glady try it out. Which link/version would you recommend?

 

@Saisran, i know how you feel. My screen is only 19 inch, 4:3 ratio and and when i switch off the visual aids, i can't spot a fighter sized target at 1nm away, when IRL i should be able to see it anywhere from 4-10nm away, depending on size and aspect. In Falcon, this is solved by the smart zoom function, which magnifies objects of interest once they reach 1 pixel size, but there is no such function in SF2. Also, because of the small screen, i can't always read my instruments well.

 

EDIT: i actually use my flight stick HAT for panning the view in all sims. I once tried a face tracking solution, but the small screen and bad software, made it not very practical....

Edited May 30, 2015 by cougar_1979

[+EricJ 3,937]

I think the most modern version of the Tomcat you can use... the Rafale isn't going to be easy so yeah I may give it a shot, but I'll need to get more experienced with the Tomcat before I try that one...

[saisran 84]

Here's my first attempt on the Rafale C. On this bout i chose the B model which meant that i don't have those Airspeed, G and Altitude readout on the tomcat's HUD so for the entire fight i wasn't actually sure of how fast i was going.

 

F-14B(96) Vs RafaleC-F4 Guns ony.

 

 

The fight started with the Rafale closing in from the Tomcat's 3. I turned towards blowers to full u turnd my nose to engage. This began a high speed circle with me blacking out from time to time. Due to the Rafale small size and flat cross section it was very difficult to track without the use of visual cues. Just within the initial two mins of the fight i lost visual 7 times. I only knew that he was somewhere behind those thick cockpit frames. The biggest error i made is when i lost complete visual during a turn reversal which placed him on my six. finally giving up on trying to look for him manually i hit the padlock and immediately saw trackers coming my right rear quarters. My pride as a Tomcat fan was stroked, i was determined to get the Rafale no matter what it takes. Kept the throttle locked on pull power and pulled the stick all the way back. At high speed the canard and delta configuration of Rafale and its light weight and powerful engines allows the plane to cut corners tightly, accelerate and rebuild energy out of each turn with great efficiency.Trying to keep up with its high alpha on faster speed makes you susceptible to black outs.  This is why i decided to force the fight at slower airspeed and hopefully drag it at low altitude as well. So hard right hand circles the tomcat's screaming at me to ease up but i pleaded her to bear it keep the Rafale in sight. Feeling threatened the Rafale lit its cans and tried to escape the Tomcat in a climb. I was able to get some lead but the rafale has the advantage in thrust to weight and i wasnt able to close up. Tried a couple of burst but none connect. The rafale continued to dive to the left but it change course and pulled tightly to the right. It was an opportunity but i failed to get  the angle correctly. Continued the pursuit and at one point got slow enough to drop the flaps. With the Tomcat being at his back a lot closer, the Rafale tried several reversals and maneuvers which i countered by cutting up wen hes going down and nosing down as hes going up. Finally he ended up reversing to the right and i was able to follow. Trying to keep the lead as best and as steady as i can i let out 3 bursts with the final attempt connecting. With the Rafale in burning pieces i went home and landed the Tomcat on a nearby friendly airbase.

 

 

The RafaleC-F4 is a very difficult opponent which is probably as good if not better than the Grippen. Thought out the fight the Tomcat was screaming at me as i push her to her limits. Since the fight was strictly 1v1 i was able to play on one of the tomcat's strength without worry. Flaps down at low speed and low altitude, the Tomcat rules!

Edited May 30, 2015 by saisran

[cougar_1979 37]

I think the most modern version of the Tomcat you can use... the Rafale isn't going to be easy so yeah I may give it a shot, but I'll need to get more experienced with the Tomcat before I try that one...

I meant more on which version of the Rafale :)

 

Here are my 2 hops. The first one is guns only, the second is with close range missiles. I am in an F-14A, early 80's version, the bandit is a Rafale M. We start at around 15-20nm on each other's 10-11 o'clock.

 

Hop#1:

I have already flown 2-3 warmups, so my strategy is clear. The Rafale in AI's hands, behaves pretty much like a Mirage 2000, though maybe slighty less over powered. It's far from being a UFO, but the way AI flies i know i will have to fight the blackouts more then the bandit itself. I will fly fast, and expend energy to nose-threaten the Rafale and force him on defensive. I explicitely avoid using hte vertical, because i want to evaluate the plane's performance, no the AI's skill with it. The first few high energy passes reveal that in the high subsonic region, the Viper and the Rafale are farely similar as far as maintaining their turn rates goes. 2 minutes into the fight i get my first clear nose-on and start forcing him to make defensive breaks in order to see how he handles the slow regime. Each consecutive press gets me more and more favorable aspect, however the G's are too high to keep him above my HUD for a long enough period of time. Very soon however, we hit the deck and there isn't anywhere for him to run anymore. On the 4th attack i settle right on his tail and gun him down from close range (0.2-0.3)nm. Hint, in order to keep sight on the bandit during hard turns with lots of lead required, approach him slightly off his plane of turning (above or bellow as shown in the video) and only line up your lift vector with him, as you are going for the kill. The Rafale did last 4 breaks once a bled him down on the hard deck, so i am guessing it handles the slow speed better then the Viper. In fact, seams very close to the Tomcat.

 

 

Hop2:

This time i armed us both with close range A-A ordnance. I got 4 Limas, but i have no idea what the Rafale's equivalent is. What i do know is that it shot me in the face on my first run, when i fogot i need to kick flaires and break during the initial merge :)))

 

The 2nd run was a victory but he just sort of flew streight after i evaded his initial salvo, so it wasn't worth uploading. This is the 3rd run. This time he didn't shoot at all at the merge (i have no idea why). I decided to follow the same tactics as before and only try to shoot a heater at him once he starts recovering from a break. This will require me to time my turn in such a fashion, that my nose is on hime as close as possible to the point in time when he unloads. Something is not right though and my radar seams to have trouble locking him up. I cicle through my radar modes to see if the situation will remedy itself. Finally around 3 and 1/2 minutes into the fight i get my radar to work. Now it's on to the dirst work. 2 more turns and i get what i think is my first good missile chance. Good tone, nose up, fox 2. He kicks some flaires and i don't know if my Lima even started tracking in the first place. The window was very small after all. At time index 5:00 he seams to think his energy state isn't good enough and reverses the turn. I let him pass, try to estimate where the my pipe is and follow suit. On the second break into the right i get into enother nose up position and i get the tone. Fox 2 again, but it seams the g's are too high, or the lead to low...... or both. This time the Rafale doesn't even drop any counter measures. The mssile fails. I continue to follow him and manage to bleed him almost dry in just 2 more breaks. His in the middle of my HUD, good tone, Fox2 again. The missile tracks and almost hits, but the Rafale drops a S*** load of flairs and just manages to spoof the Lima. Now i now what kind of a shot i need in order for the Lima to connect. Unfortunately, the Rafale is in such a low energy state that i end up right behind his tailpipe and this turns into a WW1 dogfight. i have no choice but to select guns and in for the gun kill. I never thought i'd see a Rafale this close up in the air. Basically withing 0.1nm. 

 

 

Takeaways. "Conventional" SRAAMs aren't that useful when turning and burning against high performance targets. The leed requred is foten outside teh missle IR sensor FoV and the vulnerability to counter measures too high. If you manage to force the bandit in a low energy state, you may get a chance though. I would suspect, you would still need at least 2 or 3 shots to nail him though. Under such conditions, personally i would preffer a gun tracking solution myself, as cannon rounds can't be spoofed.

 

Overal, the Rafale is an excellent figther. It is just as good as the Viper in the high speed part of the envelope, and measurebaly better in the lower energy states (though not by all that much). It's still falls a bit short of a Tomcat or Flanker. I need to take it on with a Bug or Super Bug, or better yet, take the jet itself and see what i can do with it. The way the AI flies, i had no idea at all of how it rolls, so there is another reason to try it out. It's somewhat bigger then the Viper, so you can spot it a bit further, and gun it down from a bit longer ranges, but this isn't that great of a diference. All in all, i would rate it just a bit higher as a dogfighter in comparisson to the F-16s, just because you have 2-3 more low energy breaks in it if an enemy forses you on defensive.

 

EDIT: I see Saisran beat me to it!

 

Edited May 30, 2015 by cougar_1979

[+EricJ 3,937]

I meant more on which version of the Rafale :)

 

 

 

Ahh... not sure as I used the F3, but I pretty much feel that they're all the same in some regards.

 

Awesome flying both, looks like I need to try it...

Edited May 30, 2015 by EricJ

[saisran 84]

Good ones Cougar! it seems that from the Data derived from the combination of our DACT reports the the Rafale seems to favor dying in a right hand turn while on a slight climb. :P

 

 

Took the D Model against the same Rafale. in the same scenario.

 

First half was mostly the same as the first half of the earlier bout Albeit a sudden interruption which made me lose focus and almost became a lawn dart. After which i tried to fly with the Rafale. build enrgy, turn hard and repeat. The Rafale felt offended and started a horizontal scissor and worked as i momentarily lost sight of him. To counter this i went for a vertical scissor instead. After the head on pass which placed us both in the same plane for a full on scissors i decided to turn on him in an aggressive downward spiral and somekind of a Split s. i was hoping to cut the corner and found him somewhere in front but he managed to kept behind my line so i took the tomcat in a climb inverted the tomcat in  dive and a roll which placed us in another merge which reset our position at low altitude. Enduring high G i yanked the stick to put my cat's nose on the Rafale first which was trying to build up energy instead of being aggressive. Followed him on the turn trying to get him to bleed energy which the Rafale responded by a reversal. At this point my tomcat seems to have halve its fuel and following the Rafale on the vertical was easily done. The Rafale tried to shake me off but i pitched and rolled the tomcat back into position. The Rafale break hard and reverses trying to push me in front snd i responded by popping the speed breaks instead of decreasing power as i didn't want to loose the tension. The fight ended with the Rafale underneath my gunsight lighted the burners and pitched up sharply going for the vertical. His silver wings gleaming in the bright sun was a very tempting invitation to shoot. Naturally i obliged.

 

 

SA is really a big factor in a fight. by having occasional glimpse of my airspeed i was able to manage the plane a lot better. And since at this time i didnt lost sight of the bandit that much i was able to have a better understanding of what i need to do.

 

 

After fighting the Rafale i decided to go ahead and do one with the Viper. 

 

After a series of turns and reversal i managed to have the tomcat track the viper smoothly across the sky with the help of the Airbake. 

 

 

I really like fighting against F-16s. As the fight always tend to be smooth and meticulous but still remain very difficult.

 

@EricJ: you sould definitely join in on the fun.

Edited May 30, 2015 by saisran

[Caesar 305]

Beautiful flying, guys! 

[+EricJ 3,937]

 

@EricJ: you sould definitely join in on the fun.

 

Oh believe me I did...  And good flying too ;)

 

Me; F-14D (96) with 4 x AIM-9Ms, 2 x AIM-7Ps, tanks, guns

Opposition: Rafale M F4 with 2 x MICA IR, 2 x MICA Radar, tanks, gun

 

The first three bouts was in this configuration and to make a very long story short I got plastered three times.  The first time I managed to get my nose on him, he got his nose on me I fired a 'Winder and he gunned me down (or his carcass was coming up, I was going down, we ran into each other...).  Second time I got my clock cleaned pretty good.  Third time I had a HOBS shot, didn't take it, and shot HUD and got shot down again.

 

Fourth time:

 

Me: F-14D (96) with 4 x AIM-9Ls, 2 x AIM-7Ps, tanks, gun

Opposition: Same as above.

 

 

Takeaways: They say third time is a charm but this time the 4th one was better.  For some reason I feel more confident with L Winders compared to Ms... don't know why but as the video above shows, the Rafale was nice and slow this time and the thing is that if you're a relatively inexperienced pilot (like me in this airframe) then the best thing that cougar_1979 recommended, keep it in the slow fight as opposed to "turn and burn" because on my end, not very experienced in this airframe, you'll get shot down constantly against the Rafale.  Now if I had more time in it then I'd be at a better position. Sexy plane yes, my type? No not really but regardless the things I noted was that I was definitely spoiled with the Super Bug due to the auto flaps that it has compared to the manual flaps that the Tom has.  Which is pretty much my train of thought that I shouldn't have to worry about manipulating the control surfaces when there's a computer to do that job for me, hence I worry about less and focus more on the engagement.  Just my train of thought over the years I guess.  Anyway having figured out how to manually use the flaps gave me the result above as I could corner much better than before (and still used to automatic flap settings, which I didn't mod, which i probably could, but it wouldn't be fair) and push harder when I mistakenly left my flaps down and cause more drag than needed.  But also this time other than it pulling some g's the Rafale this time was relatively docile.  If you're low on missiles or you have a gun remember to not let it maneuver out of your sight line as then (again) if you're inexperienced, the Rafale will have you for lunch.  Also I had popped my airbrakes to keep from overshooting those few times in the video. Otherwise it was pretty fun, just need more time in the Tomcat.

 

I honestly don't know my airspeed (don't look at it) during most bouts, I know if I'm slow, too fast compared to the target I'm trying to kill and adjust throttle from there.

[saisran 84]

@EricJ - Did you take this fight with the drop tanks on?

[+EricJ 3,937]

Yep, and full fuel load as well.

[saisran 84]

Yep, and full fuel load as well.

 

That would have been a harder fight than normal. The Tomcat is and heavy enough to notice weight and drag penalty of the drop tanks. Although some Tomcat driver says they engage into battle with the tanks on. They also said that its unless they're up against a Mig-29. In  my opinion the rafale is a tougher cookie than a Mig-29.

[cougar_1979 37]

That would have been a harder fight than normal. The Tomcat is and heavy enough to notice weight and drag penalty of the drop tanks. Although some Tomcat driver says they engage into battle with the tanks on. They also said that its unless they're up against a Mig-29. In  my opinion the rafale is a tougher cookie than a Mig-29.

Yeah, if you allow me to quote the aviator: "the tanks stay, unless i'm fighting a MiG-29 and losing"

 

BTW.... i stand corrected..... i took the Rafale last night for a few hops. On the first 2 tries i managed to depart it and crashed in a spin i was unable to recover. On the 3rd try i finally blasted the Viper with a Magic. This plane is snappy and very responsive........ and i am flying with decresed sensitivity and larger deadzone, because i usually fly to Tomcat and i don't want to depart it or bleed too much. Aside from that..... i suspect the Rafale is a UFO. I flew clean with 4 Magics and almost full fuel load at 15000ft and bellow 50% throttle setting i could easiliy hold 9.5-9.7g in a sustained turn. The plane supercruised with ease as well. Just to make sure i got a Super Bug with 4 X-rays and full internal fuel, and at 15000ft i could usually sustain around 5.5g...... in full power and/or burner..... I know the Bug isn't the best sustained turn fighter, but what the Rafale does is just out of this world....

 

EDIT: i guess this would explain why if you try to fight it in high subsonic, it will chew you up. It can basically stay at 9+g at very low fuel economy.

Edited June 2, 2015 by cougar_1979

[+EricJ 3,937]

That would have been a harder fight than normal. The Tomcat is and heavy enough to notice weight and drag penalty of the drop tanks. Although some Tomcat driver says they engage into battle with the tanks on. They also said that its unless they're up against a Mig-29. In  my opinion the rafale is a tougher cookie than a Mig-29.

 

Fair enough, though I was still able to corner to a degree with the Rafale on the first three hops... But I was burning fuel so that of course helped   But I'm sure with more practice I can get the Rafale or get better at killing that bird, though I haven't tried a -29 in a long time.

[Caesar 305]

Eric,

 

That's pretty damn impressive.  If you "Alt+N"d to the fight, your plane weighed over 66,000 pounds with that loadout (2,4,tanks).  Even with the GE engines, that's a heavy bird to be flinging around against a Rafale.  

[+EricJ 3,937]

Thanks man, I'm used to roughly a bit less with the Super Bug and it handles much better than the Tomcat (well with the high alpha helps) but overall with that load I can usually maintain some maneuverability.  I guess I need to learn more Tomcat flying.

[cougar_1979 37]

A bit on the maintaing of air speed in a Tomcat..... the plain seams to like accelerating and going fast, even the underpowered version (when in burner). So, each time you unload you may pick up extra knots without noticing. It takes some practice to get the feel for it, especially with the tendency to bleed rapidly at high alpha. Lower control sensitivity sure helps to get that fine middle ground between optimum alpha and roll input.

[+EricJ 3,937]

Gotcha, I may soon (been hankering to do so anyway) against a Fulcrum, see how that goes...

[saisran 84]

Been dog-fighting with GripenE and it seems to me to be a bit of a pushover compared to the Rafale. I think something is off as the Sea Gripen i flew before was a top tier dogfighter. So i installed the latest Gripen C i could find and fought it using an - A model Tomcat. 

 

This report consist of 3 bouts Guns only.

 

1. me in the A model where sent the A in a flat spin at 2000ft. 60kts nose up, flaps in full I was side by side with the Grippen C i gave the tomcat full rudder and right stick in an attempt to cork screw the nose into the Grippen C which proved to be more than a match with the A model in a slow down fight. Prior to my spin the Grippen had a couple of shots in which riddled my wings full of holes and flamed one of my engine. 

 

2. Still in the A, I pushed low into the merge to place us in a head on approach in my attempt to pressure the Grippen as early as possible. After the merged i pushed up int the vertical and he decided to be stupidly aggressive and performed a a split S (i think, Judging on how he quickly lost altitude) which planted him on the ground below. Or he could have placed too much G on the Aircraft in his aggression which broke the plane.

 

Here's a vid of the highlights of the fight.

 

 

Either way, no gun kill was achieved despite the gripen being able to land a couple of hits on the tomcat. Going on the highspeed route just placed us on a stalemate situation and with the AI being able to burn the burners at zero fuel keeping on it will be my funeral. going low and slow doesnt work either as the A doesn't have the thrust to balance the tomcat at 100Kias.

 

3. The fight started with th Gripen's nose on my 3. turned into the fight and we went on a 1 circle fighter starting from sustained turn of 400+Kias to 300+Kias. The grippen out performed the Tomcat by doing an aerobatic maneuver where he extended then did a 180 and got my left quarters on the pass. Tighten the grip on the stick and flew more seriously. For most the fight the Gripen and the Tomcat flew different profiles against each other. when hes cotting the horizontal i was crisscrossing in the vertical. performing loops and yo-yos in an attempt to catch the Gripen offgourd with something unexpected.It was a chaotic furball so i can really explain what happened. Eventually we got slow and though a series of reversals i was able to push the gripen in-front. Took as many shot as i could. A burst landed which took most of the gripen's control surfaces ending the fight.

 

 

The Gripen C is an excellent fighter. It took all that i got to shoot him down and he was able to land enough shot on my Tomcat that it did more damage than i thought. If you watched the video, you can see that i landed the tomcat with one wing. This is due to it breaking off after doing aggressive barrel rolls on RTB. That for me was the highlight of this DACT. If the fight had pushed on any longer and had i placed more G's on the Aircraft i would have lost. I just love it. A Grumman cat was heavily wounded and suffered more pain due to my stupid stunts however, as is the tradition with Grumman's Iron Works; no matter how badly hurt she is -she still managed to bring me home. :)

[cougar_1979 37]

For all that is worth mate, i think it was the asymmetric thrust that pushed you into that spin, not your control inuputs. Once you lose an engine in an F-14, it can be real tricky to perform hard maneuvers. Did you use the TMF F-14A or the stock F-14?

[+EricJ 3,937]

Still good flying... 

 

Looks like TMF to me.

[Caesar 305]

First vid is the TW F-14A, second vid is TMF F-14D. 

[saisran 84]

As Caesar said TW for the A and TMF for the D. 

 

Oops. i forgot to mention that i switched to the D model on the third bout. I was getting nowhere in the A model. The D model at least has better energy retention and has better roll rate at low speeds.

Edited June 5, 2015 by saisran

[cougar_1979 37]

As Caesar said TW for the A and TMF for the D. 

 

Oops. i forgot to mention that i switched to the D model on the third bout. I was getting nowhere in the A model. The D model at least has better energy retention and has better roll rate at low speeds.

Have you tried flying the TMF F-14A? It's a bit less snappy then the TW one, so you may find it easier to sustain desired airspeed/AoA in it. It rolls much better at transonic as well.

[cougar_1979 37]

I decided to test the Gripen last night and see how it behaves in the AI's hands. I flew about 1/2 a dozen hops and won every single one of them, but almost none to my satisfaction. In essence, i keept in defensive until it went out of burner (i would assume because it hit bingo fuel) and then i would shot it down easily.  But there was something familiar about all these fights and i decided to fly against a Mirage 2000 once again (the hardest fight i ever had in an F-14A so far).... et voila! The fight was very similar. In fact the Gripen acts somewhere between Rafale and Mirage, however it is not nearly as overpowered as the Rafale, and it never slows down. In fact, the AI uses the  Gripen like it uses the Mirage (the M2000 never bleads bellow 300KIAS) only the minimum airspeed it is willing to go to is up in the 350-360KIAS. The only instance in which i have seen it break bellow is when trying to take a shot at you.

This makes most of the fights endurance fights. The AI will stay in the Gripen's "goldylock" (350-400KIAS) indefinitely because it won't black out and trying to get a shot in a horizontal fight will be very hard. Do not take any missiles in the fight if you decide to turn and burn with it. You will never get enough lead for them this way. It is possible to trick him into taking a shot at you (thus slowing down), after which you can take the vertical (if you haven't spent your energy already), climb over him and get enough separation to fire an all aspect heat seaking missile at a relatively low energy bandit.

But, if you want to fight him in one plane the only way to down him is with guns and even then you are almost certain to need a high defelction shot (like 9 times out of 10). Because the AI won't bleed and won't blackout, you will once again have to time your offensive pulls wisely and always keep at least 50 knots above your best sustained airspeed as reserve. Note that i fought all the fights starting with full internal fuel and at the moments the Gripen went bingo i was usually just above 6000lbs. Also worthy of note is that if you face him with 10000 or less lbs from the stat it is actually a very easy target. In fact the F-14A dogfights very well on half internal fuel.

This is the final hop, which i flew after the M2000 re evaluation fight. It's farely borning endurance fight and just like my old M2000 encounter it ends up with a high deflection gun kill. At the end of the fight i have between 9-10000lbs of fuel left. The general directions are:
-keep your energy up
-keep the pressure on the bandit (but don't expect it to bleed)
-line up your shots using rudder and aileron inputs way before you actually take the shot
-don't go for a shot at all costs (i.e. if you need to bleed from 350 to 290 just to get a 0.1-0.5s snap shot window, don't do it, let him go and repeat the procedure after you unload)

Ihope this helps guys:

[+EricJ 3,937]

Me: F-14D (96) with 4 x AIM-9L, gun, tanks

Opposition: Mig-29 Fulcrum with 2 x R-73. 4 x R-27, gun, tank.

 

http://youtu.be/fOpCgxFtidk

 

As the video shows above I had some issues (overshooting due to the small size of the Fulcrum).  Only major notes was remembering to drop flaps when turning and burning (previous attempts were dismal to say the least) therefore allowed me to put my nose on him much better.  The first shot is kind of contradictory to earlier sayings about shooting when the target is moving across the HUD, the only time you can get away with it (even though the first was defeated by flares) is if the target is is moving slow enough to where you can think about shooting.  The second shot which connects of course was trying to get the aspect right so your missile doesn't get fooled by flares.  The F-14 is simply a heavy plane and even with the additional power you'll see at the start even when trying to drop flaps (was moving too fast apparently) you're flying too fast.  Given I'm starting to learn the kinematics of the jet (which is apparent during the overshoot) it's only been a short while that I've taken a serious look at it ias far as ACM goes anyway.