Serial Numbers

[Flyby PC 23]

Apologies if this is a bit nerdy, but recently I was reading Dad's RAF logbook, and for a long time, I basically ignored all the acronyms and numbers etc, but noticed that the airctaft he flew in Malta all had serial numbers beginning K8___, and the aircraft in Gibraltar started K5___ or K8.

 

I did a little research, and I read that "K" represented an aircraft manufactured in the 1930's, while "J" represented the 1920's. Alternative sources say the letter didn't actually relate to the decade, but just coincided when the numeric serial number clicked over, that is every ten thousand aircraft. The RAF hit J9999 in the late 1920's and began K1. I also began to wonder if the 8 represented Malta, and 5 represented Gibraltar, but this was just co-incidence. It just meant the aircraft of Gib were just a little older than those on Malta.

 

In the beginning, 1912 etc, early serials had letters denoting the manufacturer or type, - H for Hydroplanes, M for Monoplanes, etc, but to save confusion military aircraft serial numbers ran numerically, 1 to 10000. By 1916 however, they had run out of numbers and started to put an "A" in front. Different letters were also assigned to different arms, such as the RFC having A to J, RNAS having N1 to N9999 and S1 to S9999.

 

In 1937, they realised that knowledge of such a system could be used to count how many aircraft the RAF actually had built, so they started to put gaps in the numbers so they didn't relate to the numbers of manufactured aircraft, and the change is rumoured to have misled people into overestimating the strength of the RAF in WW2.

 

By 1940, they were already in the Z9900's, so started the double letter prefix AA1. This system is still used today.

 

This all relates to British military aircraft of course....

 

On it's own, there isn't much you can tell from an aircrafts serial number, other than the approximate year of manufacture, but of course once you have the serial number, you can trace that aircraft and its detailed activities in logbooks and service records.

 

It's also a little bit confusing, so I apologise if I've got it wrong. Happy to be corrected if I have.

 

 

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Very good Flyby, and to add to the confusion, here is an outstanding little article concerning the German system written by Tom Solinski, (about ten years ago), which I posted here quite some time back:

 

 

German Aircraft Designations

By: Tom Solinski (tskio at cox dot net)

 

 

As we approach the new millenium and the subsequent Centennial of powered flight I have noticed several aviation myths that should remain in this century

 

This short paper started off after I read an article on flying the Fokker D-VII at old Rhinebeck aerodrome. The author, the late Jeff Ethell frankly states that "D" designation of German WW-I era fighter aircraft, such as the Fokker D-VII, the Pfalz D-III the Albatros D-V, stood for "Doppledecker" or bi-plane. Looking at these examples it is easy to see how this could be accepted, because all of these aircraft were in fact bi-planes. Other Imperial German Army's aircraft designations go on to support this statement, i.e. the Fokker E-III Einedecker, (one-wing) for a monoplane and the Dr, or Dridecker (three wing) designation for the famous Fokker Dr-I of Von Richtoffen the "Red Baron".

 

But other designations make this "D" designation confusing. What about all of the biplanes that had "B, C, G, & W" designations? Why isn't there a "D" in these titles to identify them as Doppledeckers?

 

Another contradiction to this designation is found in the usually clear, specific Teutonic thinking. If they called a ONE wing airplane by the numeric title of Eine (one) and a THREE wing airplane by the numeric of Dri (three) why break convention by calling a TWO wing airplane Dopple instead of the logical, numeric Zwie (two)? After all, this Prussian logic was followed in identifying one, and two-bay rigging on bi-planes as "einstielig" and "zwiestielig" respectively.

 

I have come to believe that the correct answer to all of this is that under the Imperial German Army designation system the "D" designation of German WW-I aircraft DOES NOT stand for "Doppledecker". It stands for "Type D" aircraft, in a very organized, logical, system.

 

My research has revealed that the Inspektion der Fliegertruppen (Inspectorate of the Flying Troops) i.e.: Idflieg had an aircraft mission identification system in place as early as the fall of 1915. The system consisted of identifying the designing manufacturer by name; followed by an alphabetical mission designation (i.e. A through W) followed by a Roman numeral sequence number of that mission type from that manufacturer. This system continued to evolve throughout World War One and it eventually consisted of:

 

"Type A" A single place unarmed monoplane scout of less than 150 horsepower. Example the Pfalz A-I, & A-II.

 

"Type B" A two place unarmed biplane scout or trainer of less than 150 Hp. Example the Albatros B-I.

 

"Type C" A two place armed biplane scout of 150 Hp or more. Example the Albatros C-III.

 

"Type CL" This was a subset of the "C" type indicating "light" weight. They were developed for a new mission; to be an armed escort, or two-seat fighter. Example the Hannover Cl-III.

 

"Type D" A single place armed biplane scout of 150 Hp or more. Example the Pfalz D-III, and D-XII. However, this designation was later applied to monoplane fighters as well, i.e. the Fokker D-VIII.

 

" Type E" A single place armed monoplane scout of less than 150 horsepower. Example the Fokker E-III. Note: the Pfalz A-II became the Pfalz E-III when armed! The Fokker D-VIII was originally the Fokker E-V

 

"Type F" A single place armed triplane scout of less than 150 horsepower. The original designation for the Fokker Dr-I, was Fokker F-I.

 

"Type G" A multi place armed biplane bomber with two or more engines. Example the Gotha G-IV. This designation was originally "K" for Kampf flugzeug or battle-plane. The "G" apparently lent itself to "Grosse" or large

 

The sequence breaks down after G, skipping through the alphabet, sometimes using the first letter of the name of the mission type.

 

"Type J" A two-place, armed, and armored biplane specifically designed for the trench-strafing mission. Example the Junkers J-I

 

"Type N" A two-place, armed biplane scout of 150 Hp or more specifically designed for night bombing. Very few were produced. Example the Friedrichshafen N I

 

"Type R" "Riesenflugzeug", "Giant aircraft". A multi place armed biplane bomber with four or more engines. Example the Zeppelin-Staaken R-I.

 

"Type W" "Wasser"? A designation for all float equipped land planes or flying boats regardless of number of wings, seats, or horsepower.

 

I have two other items to support this position, of "D" being "Type D" and not "Doppeldecker". In 1918 the IDFLIEG held two "Type D" aircraft competitions. The aircraft evaluated and eventually winning werent always biplanes, but they ended up being Type D aircraft.

 

On page 19 in the book "Aircraft versus Aircraft by Norman Franks" there is a contemporary German photo of an L.V.G. B-II training aircraft. The caption printed on the negative in German reads "LVG Doppledecker, System Schneider, Schulemachine" this is clearly a distinction between the training mission and the biplane configuration of the aircraft.

 

Please note that this list applies to the official Imperial German Army designation for these airplanes once they were accepted for service. Many of the German and Austrian manufacturers had their own internal designation systems.

 

Take the case of Anthony Fokker who initially used a designation of "M" and a series number, so his companies M5K became the Fokker E-III in service. Later in the war Fokker used the designation "V". It is not clear weather this stood for Versuchflugzeug or "test aircraft" (i.e. prototype) or Verspannungsloser for "wing without bracing" as found on the Fokker D-VI and subsequent.

 

The Junkers company identified all of their prototypes with "J" not to be confused with the in service "J". Their J-4 became the operational J-I.

 

And finally, to confuse the whole issue the Brandenburg Company of Austria built an armed biplane designated "KD" for "Kampf Doppledecker" or "Battle bi-plane"

 

Some of you are probably saying to yourself, "this guy has too much time on his hands", and normally I'd agree with you on an article such as this covering this type of minutia. But, as one popular radio talk show host says, "words mean things". Aviation has always been an art and science of exacting words. If we care about aviation as our hobby, or for some of us, as our living, then we owe both the founders and our future followers a clear accurate history of aviation stomping out half truths and myths whenever possible.

 

.

 

 

Lou

 

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[Flyby PC 23]

Thanks Lou.

 

I've got another aircraft to ID for you.

 

 

I believe this picture is HMS Glorious, but I am struggling to identify the type of aircraft in the drink.

 

Its not a Fairey Swordfish or Flycatcher, Hawker Hart or Nimrod, nor is it Blackburn Dart or Ripon. It's not a Gladiator, nor a Fairey Seal. It's not a Supermarine Walrus, nor an Albacore.

 

It MIGHT be a Fairey IIIF, and the tail is quite distinctive, but not 100% right. Thing is, I believe this picture is 1938, too late for Fairey IIIF's on a carrier, but 202 Squadron flew Fairey III's from Hal Far, where my father was, but again, I think this was well before 1938. That raises the question why it's beside a carrier.

 

It could be a IIIF quite a bit before 1938, in fact IIIF's did fly of carriers as early as 1916, but if that's the case, we're wondering how my father came by the photograph. He took the vast majority in his collection, but this one is curious.

 

I'll be happy enough just to know it is a Fairey III, then I'll know if I'm barking up the right tree or not.

[Flyby PC 23]

This is a Fairey III, it says from Glorious in 1932 but it's a float (?). You can see the tail is close, but not quite right, but it might be damaged...

[Flyby PC 23]

Hmmmm. This is titled a "Pre-war" Fairey III. - I think that's it. The tail looks nearly right, but nearly right. Still not 100% convinced, but I don't know what else it could be.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Flyby PC

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

Flyby, that plane in your first photo is almost certainly a Fairey IIIF Mk IIIB or a Fairey IIIF Mk IIIM. Both versions operated out of Hal Far with 202 Squadron up to and into 1938, with the last recorded accident involving such being noted on 21 May 1938 for Fairey IIIF Mk IIIB serial No. S1534, when it was 'struck off charge', (i.e. removed from inventory).

 

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[Flyby PC 23]

That's excellent Lou. Thank you very much.

 

It does however get more confusing, because in May 1938 my Dad was in Gibraltar.

 

I'm totally happy it's a Fairey III from 202 squadron on Hal Far, but I don't see how my father could have taken the picture. He did go back to Hal Far in August, and perhaps didn't take the picture, but possibly knew the crew??? I'm guessing now. He did fly 2 drogue missions for 202 squadron in November, but both squadrons would be on Hal Far at the same time regardless of flying together. It seems it must have been something like that, because he was 3rd Anti-Aircraft Cooperation Unit, and they never flew Fairey III's, and never flew from carriers either.

 

Where did you find the incident Lou if you don't mind me asking? I'm very curious.

[Flyby PC 23]

Here's why I'm asking...

[RAF_Louvert 101]

.

 

That is a fantastically detailed crash photo Flyby, would you mind sharing what the precise significance of it is Sir. The data base I referenced can be found on the 'Aviation in Malta' website, and here is the link to their page dealing with the 1930-1939 time period:

 

Aviation in Malta

 

Good luck on your research Flyby, and please let me know what you discover.

 

Lou

 

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[Flyby PC 23]

I don't know anything much Lou. My Dad died in 1977, and left us his logbook detailing his time as aircrew from 1938 to 1939, and a pile of photgraphs.

 

It's all a bit complicated and needs some detective work - which is very easy to get wrong. Always known some things about my dad, but it's been very garbled and unclear. Say for example, I knew my dad was a wireless operator in Swordfish, but definitely RAF. Do a quick check, and Swordfish are habitually referred to as Naval aircraft on carriers. All their action was Fleet Air Arm, so how did that work with him being RAF? However, turns out the Fleet Air Arm was only separated from the RAF in 1938/39 on the brink of war, and prior to that Swordfish were indeed flown by the RAF. For years I couldn't figue that out. Internet wasn't around back then lol.

 

My Dad was career RAF, joining up in 1933, but he was only air crew between 1938 and 1939, and his unit was No3 Anti Aircraft Cooperation Unit, basically recon, spotting for gunnery, towing things for ships and anti-aircraft batteries to shoot at. For a long time you could google 3AACU and find virtually nothing about it. It was a pre-war squadron, and once the Swordfish were taken into the Navy in 1939, it reverted to training, and not much more. I think it was shut down late 1939, and certainly wasn't up to defending Malta. My dad didn't stay on Malta, but moved to Iraq, Egypt, India and Burma, but no longer as aircrew, but as a wireless operator on the ground. Despite being in the RAF from 1933 to 1945, the only photos we have which are aircraft related are a few 1933 Pictures of varied aircraft taken at Catterick (at least that's what they have scribbled on the back), and bundle of Swordfish/Halfar Pics, and assorted landscapes/buildings in Iraq/India/Burma. There is a tantalising picture of a Spitfire in the Far east, but no details. My Dads not in that pic, but I strongly suspect he may have taken it. There are very few 'aimless' pictures kept. He generally took or kept pictures for a reason.

 

From his log book I started checking our Squadron Numbers and acronyms and got a much clearer picture what my dad was actually doing, but this is confined to 1938/39. For example I've already described in his log book, he was flying 'drogue' or 'sleeve' missions for 802 Squadron. That means not much at a glance, but 802 Squadron were the Gloster Gladiators on the carrier HMS Glorious. He must have been towing things for them to shoot at. That must have been excellent fun!

 

There is also a period in 1938 when he moves from Malta to Gibraltar, and seems to fly Swordfish with Floats rather than wheels. We're not 100% sure the Swordfish float pics are all Gibraltar, because Malta has seaplane facilities too. And apparently unrelated, he has a picture of the whole British Med Fleet at anchor in Gibraltar harbour, with the front gun turrets painted red white and blue. This was to mark the ships as neutral, while they protected neutral shipping in the Med while the Spanish Civil war was going on. It's a cracking photo, with over 100 warships, Hood, Nelson, Rodney, Royal Oak, King George V etc. Anyway, dig a little deeper, and you find out March to August was a grim time for the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, (our friends) because the Nationalists, backed by the Nazis, had split the republican army in two, and were spreading out along the Spanish Med coast. The Spanish Nationalists had eyes on getting Gibraltar back from the Brits, and the British Fleet was a show of strength at the time, a big warning to "keep of the grass" around Gibraltar. While I can't be sure, I think that's possibly why my dad's unit was moved to Gib for the summer 1938 too. The dates cetainly fit.

 

It turns out he de-mobbed after the war as a Warrant Officer / Flight Sergeant. He only flew as aircrew however 1938-39. I don't think he did anything spectacular in the war, the only stories I recall as a kid was shooting at a Jap Zero with a shotgun, this being the only shot he fired at the japs, and having to return behind jap lines to recover radio equipment left behind when they were fleeing the Japanese advance. No more details when or where. From what I know of the military, if he had to get it, it was probably him who left it behind lol.

 

So to focus on this burned out wreck, I think it reasonable to assume this picture of the burned out Swordfish is very likely to be 1938-39, and either Hal Far or Gibraltar, largely because it cannot be anywhere else. I think the pic must be Hal Far, because his Gibraltar flights are definitely all logged as float plane Swordfish, so it seems reasonable to assume this wreck has wheels, and is therefore Hal Far, but that's one of these areas of detective work where 2+2 can equal 5. That Malta Aircraft site is a terrific find Lou, and I find myself looking at K8284, a Swordfish which crashed on 10/08/38 with no casualties, or K8443, a Swordfish crash during take-off due to mechanical failure. I'm no air crash investigator, but the relatively intact shape of the wing says a low level, low speed, low impact crash to me, with the aircraft in good condition prior to burning, - but that could fit either incident. So that probably limits it to either of these two alternatives. Probably. I think if I had to, I'd put my money on K8284, if only because its definitely a 3AACU aircraft. And yes, I've checked, my father never flew in either aircraft.

[Flyby PC 23]

Here is one picture of the Spitfire. I have a second, but not here. It has about a dozen men posed in front of the Spitfire, and they look tropical British, or maybe even Australian. Very little info from the pic, - so frustrating.

 

 

The C-47 picture is another mystery. It has all the hallmarks of some important dignatory visiting somewhere, but I know nothing more than what you see. Anybody recognise anything? I have no dates, countries or clues of any sort to give you. India or Burma perhaps. It might, and stress might, be Louis Mountbatten.

 

Like I've said, there a point to most of his photographs.

[Olham 164]

Without having any knowledge, I just wonder, if that letters "EC" could be more than just any ID number.

Here is a website of veterans on the EC-47, which seemed to be a specially equipped aircraft.

 

http://www.ec47.com/dir.htm

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[Flyby PC 23]

Without having any knowledge, I just wonder, if that letters "EC" could be more than just any ID number.

Here is a website of veterans on the EC-47, which seemed to be a specially equipped aircraft.

 

http://www.ec47.com/dir.htm

 

Thanks Olham. It could be, but those particular veterans are 1966 to 1974. I've hunted a few sites for C-47s but don't even see one with that type of camouflage. It doesn't look RAF or US, but very disctinctive all the same. I'm now wondering whether it might be French or Dutch, but even then it doesn't look right. I think it's one of these you'll either recognise it right away or you won't.

 

Regarding the Spitfire, that looks to be a tropical filter, and an RAF roundel under the wing, with the red dot in the middle, not a kangaroo or plain white circle. I think it must be RAF, and before the rounels changed. It also seems to have a white band about a foot wide right across the wing top and bottom, but that might just be the photo.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Olham 164]

What I found remarkable, is that there are no national insignia visible, and that there are so many civilians.

The camo pattern looks like a Japanese one to me.

[Flyby PC 23]

What I found remarkable, is that there are no national insignia visible, and that there are so many civilians.

The camo pattern looks like a Japanese one to me.

 

 

I agree. No serial number either, although there are people standing in the way. It does seem odd the letters are so bold, but lack ensignia, and I wonder whether the door is hiding something.

 

It also looks like there are three bands of colour in the rudder, but off course, you can't tell what the colours are. althought they do run horizontally, not vertically as you'd expect. Red white and blue is possible, but that could be French, US, British. Dutch would orange, but could be red white and blue running horizontally, but thats pure theory. It really is odd.

 

I am even tempted to think it might be a Republican Aircraft from Spain, - Red yellow and purple, but the camo is still odd. But that could account for the informal looking reception. But I really don't know. The Camo screams jungle/far East to me, and there's an asian looking person there too, but that tail....

Edited August 1, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Flyby PC 23]

I think I might have it.... Its a Republican DC-2.

[+elephant 36]

About the Spitfire, the white bands on the wings are a SEAC (South Easterrn Air Command) characteristic...

Edited August 1, 2011 by elephant

[Flyby PC 23]

I think I might have it.... Its a Republican DC-2.

 

 

This concludes the case for prosection m'Ludd.... YES!!!!

 

That tail is red, yellow and purple.

 

@Elephant. That's brilliant too elephant! What a buzz this is finding this stuff out.

 

Now I need to find out who fled Spain in a DC2.....

Edited August 1, 2011 by Flyby PC

[Olham 164]

I just found this info on a Spanish DC-1:

 

When Barcelona fell in March 1939, government officials fled in the DC-1 to Toulouse, France.

When the war was over, Nationalist Spanish forces flew it back to Madrid, where it was handed

over to the Sociedad Anonima de Transportes Aeros, later named Iberia Airlines.

The camouflage paint was removed, and the DC-1 was christened Negron after a famous Nationalist

pilot who had been killed in action. It flew on regular schedules connecting cities in Spain.

 

Read more here:

 

http://www.airforce-...1285gooney.aspx

 

4th - 12th March 1939 The failure of Dr Negrin's Communist Government to sue for peace resulted in a civil-war-

within-a-civil-war on the streets of Madrid. The National Defence Council, led by Colonel Casado, triumphed in the

struggle for control of the Republic and tried to negotiate peace terms with General Franco. In the meantime Dr Negrin,

his Cabinet, and Russian advisers flew out of Madrid to safety.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[Flyby PC 23]

Thanks Olham, I'd read there was a famous DC1, but didn't find out why it was famous.

 

It got my heart going, because a DC-1 has 6 windows in the side, where the DC-2 has 7. When you count them in the picture there are 6! But the 7th is behind the door. It is definitely a DC-2.

 

I've actually posted the picture to one of the website authors, and I'll keep you up to date if I learn anything more from it.

[Olham 164]

The aircraft in your photo has only 6 windows on the side, Flyby.

If you measure the distance from the left edge of one window to the next right window's left edge,

you will see, that there cannot be another window hidden by the door.

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[Olham 164]

The Spanish Civil War (from: Wikipedia)

 

Republican government bought in France 14 Dewoitine D.371, 10 Dewoitine D.373 and 49 Potez 540,

among other military aircraft, for the value of 12 million francs. Unfortunately all these planes were largely

obsolete at the time, so that in the first four months after the start of the hostilities, the only aircraft of

the Republican government that could be considered modern were three Douglas DC-2s that had been

purchased recently.[7]

 

[7] = Gerald Howson, Arms for Spain: Untold Story of the Spanish Civil War, John Murray Publishers Ltd, 1998, ISBN 9780719555565

Edited August 1, 2011 by Olham

[Flyby PC 23]

I think you're correct Olham, but references say the Republicans only had 1 DC-1, and it apparently wasn't painted like the photograph.

 

Hmmm. Seems somebody isn't correct. How curious...

 

http://www.zi.ku.dk/.../spain/did.html

 

 

WAIT!!!! I'm wrong. The code number is the DC-1. EC-AGA!!! There's a man standing in front of the last A! That and the EC on the rudder threw me a bit, but this is the DC-1!!! WOW!!!

Edited August 1, 2011 by Flyby PC

[+elephant 36]

Bottom line - NEVER RELY ON PROFILES!

[Flyby PC 23]

Found this -

 

The one and only DC-1 was sold to Lord Forbes in the United Kingdom in May 1938, who operated it for a few months before selling it in France in October 1938. It was then sold to Líneas Aéreas Postales Españolas (L.A.P.E.) in Spain in November 1938. It was later operated by Iberia from July 1939 with the name 'Negron' and registered EC-AAE. As such it crashed following an engine failure on take-off from Malaga Airport in December 1940 and force landed at the end of the runway, never to fly again. Local rumor has it that part of the airframe was used to build a portable alter on which an effigy of the Virgin Mary is carried around the City on Holy Days. Ironically, in Spain, the Virgin Mary is called the "Queen of the Skies". With TWA the aircraft was named the "City of Los Angeles", City of the Angels. An unconscious similarity! The rare shot below, taken after the crash, is courtesy of Joaquin de Caranza Paris, the Director of the Malaga Aviation Museum (via the Austin J. Brown collection).

 

Edit. Who'd be a historian? Seems there is disagreement whether this alter was made from the DC-1 in 1940, or a Ju-52 in 1944.

 

 

Edit 2- Got this from a French WIKI site-

 

Finally TWA sold the DC-1 in January 1936 to Howard hughes who did add new additional tanks for flights of more than 9600 km for an attempt around the world. Having quickly lost interest in the DC-1, he sold finally the aircraft to the Viscount Forbes on May 27, 1938. This noble English considering a transatlantic flight in the company of H.T. "Dick" Merrill and the aircraft was modified for the canopy of a DC-2 ofEastern (c/n 1292). This project abandoned the aircraft was transported by sea to Britain, registered G-AFIF and used during the Munich crisis to transport journalists to the continent. The device was in fact appear that three months on the British before be resold to the Société Française des Transports Aériens civil registry that the handed immediately to the Government of the Second Spanish Republic. Become EC - IFG, he served under the colors of sbcl. Certainly used for reconnaissance and transport missions during the Civil war, he assumed in March 1939 the transportation of the Republican delegates negotiating the end of the war and the evacuation of Republican leaders to the France. Become EC - AAE in 1940 and used for the carriage of passengers by SATA, it was renamed "Manual Negron". In December 1940 while conducting regular Sevilla-Malaga-Tétouan DC-1 was a victim of a takeoff in Malagaengine failure. The driver can only perform an emergency landing, without damage to the occupants of the aircraft, but fatal to the cell, which was finally scrapped on the spot.

 

Edited August 2, 2011 by Flyby PC