OT: This could be a joke, only it isn't

[Von Paulus 8]

http://www.helpivanmartin.org/

 

:(

[itifonhom 6]

Being a Greek, I can say that there are two things that can go totally wrong there, diving and photography. The first because of the antiquities and the second because of the ongoing, since centuries, fear of the mighty neighbor. Most of all, photography on that side of Greece should be really thoughtful. Depends of course where they were or what they photographed but even without knowing, if get caught like they did, someone can be in real trouble in just minutes. I know it sound absurd but unfortunately not every part of this world is like Central Europe, there are still places that not everything's so innocent.

[Von Paulus 8]

Being a Greek, I can say that there are two things that can go totally wrong there, diving and photography. The first because of the antiquities and the second because of the ongoing, since centuries, fear of the mighty neighbor. Most of all, photography on that side of Greece should be really thoughtful. Depends of course where they were or what they photographed but even without knowing, if get caught like they did, someone can be in real trouble in just minutes. I know it sound absurd but unfortunately not every part of this world is like Central Europe, there are still places that not everything's so innocent.

I can understand that. But the guys weren't doing any thing different than the normal tourist do. And those islands are open for tourism.

I only hope that the Greek authorities assess this case as quickly as possible.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Von Paulus

[itifonhom 6]

Yes, I know what you mean. But keep in mind two factors: first, although the islands are open, photography there is restricted, like I said, depends where you stand and which way someone is photographing. Secondly, is bad luck. You can take million photographs but only get caught once is enough!

I know the guys are innocent but they can have a hard time coming out of this, depending what they photographed.

 

I know it's maybe hard to understand. I work at the major German airport and I can photograph everything as I like but every time I travel back to Greece, I'm not allowed to take a single photo of a runway of a local airport. Sounds strange but it's like this.

[Olham 164]

I hope this is not a bizzare attempt of Greece trying to balance their budget???

We live in crazy times...

[itifonhom 6]

No Olham, I'm afraid not. I served at the Greek Armed Forces some twenty years ago and these things were just the same. I know these guys didn't do anything bad on purpose but if they had the idea to photograph anything military on that island, they got really trouble. Authorities are really touchy about these matters there although for someone coming from the Netherlands for example, seems quite harmful. I can say with some certainty that between those two borders, a small "Cold War" is still going on. There are even deaths among the border and that year after year.

[Von Paulus 8]

I hope this is not a bizzare attempt of Greece trying to balance their budget???

We live in crazy times...

Olham, if I didn't know that you are the kindest person in this forum, I could have interpret it very wrongly.

That's unfortunately another problem, a serious one, and in a different scale from the one I presented in this thread.

Because I'm Portuguese I'm too much sensitive to the Greek economical and financial problems, and I don't see why it should be mention in this thread.

The only thing in common with this situation is the place where this unfortunate incidents are happening. May I also remind that most of us here, are all Greek in a certain way.

[Olham 164]

It wasn't meant respectless against the Greek, von Paulus.

Maybe most Europeans don't know this, but Germany is also pretty much on the down way.

More and more people are unempoyed, or they have jobs with earnings that don't cover the spendings.

Economic growth cannot go on forever, and I think we have long passed the vertex of the curve.

 

Germany cannot save Europe. And if Europe goes down, Germany will go down too.

Simple plain truth (which no one admits).

[Von Paulus 8]

I wouldn't mind to debate this with you in private Olham. But I do believe if South Europe goes down all the Europe will go down as well, including Germany.

And if Europe goes down... I'm sure more regions will go down as well. But this is OT. :)

Edited September 20, 2012 by Von Paulus

[JFM 18]

I don't know those guys from page eight; never heard of them. So, believe me when I say that I have ZERO agenda with my next question: How do you know they aren't spies? I'm not saying they are, don't misunderstand. My question is not a rhetorical challenge and has nothing between the lines; it's just a question. Since I know nothing about these guys, please tell me how it is known they are not spies. Again, no agenda, just trying to learn more from you guys who know more about this than I do and you seem very confident they aren't spies. Just want to know why.

[Von Paulus 8]

Well, I know Ivan is working for BIS for quite a long time. He's one of the main BIS dev. Creative director if I'm not mistake.

I belong to BIS community for 10 years, so for me, it would be like accusing Polowsky of being a spy because he took some photographs of a few aerodromes.

Of course I cannot prove he isn't a spy, but I find it highly improbable.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Von Paulus

[itifonhom 6]

Hi Jim. Well, I don't know it for sure of course but since I know very good how delicate and serious these things are in Greece, I suppose that for someone coming from a country that photography is not restricted anywhere, it feels natural on a tourist island to take out the camera and shoot. But getting caught photographing anything military, specially on that borders, is extremely seriously taken by authorities. That is why I suppose it is just a misunderstanding, because it can happen all too easily.

[Olham 164]

Von Paulus, I sent you a PM.

[+elephant 36]

I didn't know you are Greek, itifinhom!

Things can be tight in the border...as you described.

I've done my service in '93-94.

These guys, due to the nature of their work, were not obviously practising "tourist photography"...

Normally, there are signs that restrict photography near military instalments.

I remember a similar incident with some British "planespotters" , a decade ago.

Hopefully the misunderstanding will be resolved, soon...

[itifonhom 6]

Just noticed you're Greek too elephant, nice to know! Did my service 91-92. I suppose too the guys photographed something delicate for sure but I don't think they were actually spying, just took too light how serious that could be in Greece. It happened before and will happen again.

[Von Paulus 8]

These guys, due to the nature of their work, were not obviously practising "tourist photography"....

I know that the because they are working on ArmA3 can cause suspicions, of what they were doing there.

Anyway this is the official explanation given by BIS:

 

Quote Marek Španěl :

Prague, 20th September 2012

 

My colleagues and I were shocked when we found out about the detention of our co-workers and friends, Martin Pezlar and Ivan Buchta, on the Greek island of Lemnos. Everybody who knows them realizes that they’re not spies and certainly never intended to threaten Greek national security.

 

The guys visited the island as tourists. Their trip to Lemnos was personal, organized via travel agent, with the single goal of experiencing the place that had inspired the virtual environments of Arma 3, a computer game that they’ve been working on over the past two years.

 

Our company has never gathered or collected any restricted information, such as photos or blueprints of military installations of any nation, nor have we ever tasked anybody else to do it on our behalf. We always respect the law and we develop all of our products using publicly available materials only - Arma 3 is no exception.

 

According to media sources, the Greek ministry of National Defence actually examined our game, after local authorities raised this topic. They assured that the game is fine. Originally planned for release in autumn of this year, it is based upon a fictional future, set in 2035.

 

The whole incident is a terrible personal tragedy for Ivan, Martin and their families; I believe it to be no more than a deep misunderstanding, one which will be swiftly explained. I’m ready to support the guys and their families in these difficult times as much as I can.

 

 

Marek Španěl

 

Bohemia Interactive a.s. CEO

• 
   
  

[Bullethead 12]

Having read more than I care to of languages I don't grok and English translations of them that are even worse, I can't say I blame the Greek authorities here. There's a long tradition of seemingly harmless intellectual types being spies. What better cover for some nefarious intent than to say you're working on a fictional video game? I'm with JFM. How do we know these guys weren't spies?

[Von Paulus 8]

Then hey have been working for ten years in several fictional games:

Operation Flashpoint, Arma, ArmA 2 and now ArmA3. We all know that these are fictional games.

And that BIS (Bohemia Interactive) is a spy agency that works for a big criminal association. Soon Bond will have to act.

[Bullethead 12]

Then hey have been working for ten years in several fictional games:

 

Every spy has a good cover. Reminds me of the Cambridge Five....

 

Look, I can't say myself whether or not these guys are really spies. All I can say is that being game developers does not automatically give them a free pass, nor does any other profession. How much does anybody here really know about these people?

 

Here's the thing.... I doubt anybody would have bothered them if they hadn't already been on the watch list of the Greek (and probably other) intelligence services. As you say, all sorts of people take photos on that island, so why single these 2 out? And while they had an ostensible reason for being there and taking pictures, that's exactly what a cover is supposed to provide. So, rather than immediately taking the Greek security forces as bumbling buffoons arresting harmless game designers for no good reason, I'm inclined to give the security forces the benefit of the doubt. Let's see what happens at the trial, shall we?

[Von Paulus 8]

Well Bullethead, I certainly will not argue against someone who as this sort of conviction as you seem to have about this matter.

When someone wants to believe that man never reached the moon, it's very hard to prove him anything. In the end it works like a matter of faith.

Of course this works for both sides. Let's wait for the trial, then.

[itifonhom 6]

I can see Jim and Bullethead got a point here. The only thing that doesn't really match is the fact that if Jim and BH are right, then this means that the Greek Secret Service or the Security Forces are efficient, which, as far as I know, they aren't! So I suppose this is just bad luck for the two chaps. But nobody can say anything for sure except those two guys. To be honest, I don't think it'll be a trial at all, they're going to settle this in some other way, no matter if they really are spies or not.

[Olham 164]

Well, if they were working for ArmA, then they were actually spying out the installations of Greece.

And they would have attached them openly for all to see, in the next ArmA version.

A delicate matter...

[itifonhom 6]

Well Olham, if I was going for a photoshoot at East Berlin not so long ago I could get even greater troubles, even if I was working for Disney. Not everyone is blessed with good neighbors like Germany, Sweden or Belgium for example, there are some things that are serious, even if they're hard to understand for people not knowing the status quo of a region.

Edit: and of course no real spy would have "Spy" for his profession!!

Edited September 21, 2012 by itifonhom

[UK_Widowmaker 571]

I'm sorry to say this...but I have little Sympathy. WHY take photo's, like that...In a Country, which is, known to be a bit Over the top perhaps, with Photography?

 

Have people learned nothing from the British Planespotters who also were arrested?..... A pointless exercise, as even if the game was going to boast great, Greek Scenery...No-one would know it was Greece (or probably even care)...and plenty of images and film on the Net to use...including Google Earth.

 

I suspect they will be released (as where the Plane Spotters) after Greece has taught them a lesson!....but extremely stupid people!

 

The Greeks are merely protecting their National Interests, and the Greek People...I sometimes wonder if the sort of people who design, and play these games, think the World is like their fantasy?

 

Much as I appreciate the realism of (for instance OFF) I am under no illusion, that it's unlike the 'Real Air War' and is, in fact...a game! (Sorry Olham) hahaha

Edited September 21, 2012 by UK_Widowmaker

[Flyby PC 23]

This isn't new. In 2001, there were twelve British plane spotters arrested in Greece for taking pictures of the wrong things.

 

The Greeks take this seriously, and it's something people should be aware of. Defence facilities and the military aren't just there to benefit computer games. If these people can satisfy the Greeks they're not spies, then I don't suppose the Greeks will want any more to do with them, but if I recall correctly, I think the dozen Brits were found guilty and could have gone to jail but were deported back to Britain and banned from going back to Greece.

 

I think another factor why this keeps happening might be that people tend to forget the political situation between Greece and Turkey.