Caesar

Eric, are you running V1.20? That put the CM's into the data.ini's and removed them from the loadout.ini. If you're flying an F-14D with strike capability (96 or beyond), you should have 320 chaff (BOL Left and Right) and 60 flares available! Good to see you still got the bridge, but with no CM's, that's pretty risky!

Spiff, While we were working on the package a year ago, Dave and I tried to get those rails working on the new model. If memory serves, we couldn't get them to work properly - they either were always on (i.e. you'd have Sparrows sticking through them) or they wouldn't quite match up with the new model without the other rails sticking through somewhere. In large regard, it's a matter of positioning them correctly on the model, and, like I said, we had problems with that, too. If you find a fix, I'd like to hear it, but I'm afraid I can't provide insight on how to get them applied properly since we never got them working right ourselves. Also, which image shows modified rails in the v1.20 Super Pack download? They all look like the basic ones to me. Second, what's the issue with the TCS on the F-14D? I thought we had gotten all the TCS pods working on all models of the F-14, with the possible exception of the Avionics70 F-14D, so if one's broken, I'd like to know which.

I think Brain brings up a good point and it's one I've exploited in the various gunfights I've done (including that 1v1 in the F-14A vs. the F-15C) is that using the vertical against the AI is a surefire way to get them in trouble with few exceptions. A few nights ago I went into a high-altitude fight against an F-16N in the F-14B, we were at about 30k feet, and I was above him. He wound up running out of energy, and started a horrendous pitch/push cycle, I rolled down on him and sawed him in half with the Vulcan. Since I've started fighting with the debug on as a kind of TACTS support, I've found out that what seems to be happening is that they are trying to pull to "lag persuit" but especially at either high altitudes or low airspeed, they hit the aircraft's stall line, which then changes the AI action to Stall Recovery. As they now have energy, they cycle back to lag persuit or defensive turn, pull hard, which runs them into the stall line again, and it switches back to Stall Recovery in an endless cycle until either the player aircraft shoots them down, or is no longer a threat due to distance or position. I'm not sure why some aircraft do this more than others, the older F-5 performed this "death porpoise" cycle once you got on its six, while the new one doesn't (or it hasn't been prominent anyhow), the older CFM'd F-14 did, v2 very rarely. I don't usually see an F-15 or A-4 perform this cycle, nor the F-16 except at very high altitudes trying to pitch onto the player or wingman a/c like what happened a few nights ago. The aircraft that usually follow me into the vertical without too much difficulty are the MiG-17, MiG-19 Field Mod and once in a while the Su-27, but this is rare. An F-14 has done it before while I was in the F-16 (illustrated last page), but it wasn't effective enough to threaten me.

I have to agree with Eric on this - we've gotten WAY off topic. I'd recommend bringing this back to in-game discussion for dissimilar air combat training missions and findings.

Well, time to put my own theories to the test. I will say this, the F-16N does need to be kept at higher airspeeds, and so long as it is, you shouldn't have a problem against the F-14B/D. This fight wasn't a super-one-sided matter, however. Starting at about 18k with the F-14 below me with minor angle off, I pull into him in a descending turn. I've got a little bit much speed on me, but the aircraft burns it down as I modulate the throttles to get the best rate I can. The F-14 is keeping his speed high as well, deciding to come down with me. I roll and pull into the vertical, since this isn't going anywhere. The Tomcat pulls up behind me, and I wind up bleeding a lot of energy, but not so much that my F-16 is useless. The F-14 doesn't pitch enough for a snap shot, and as I come down, I'm not in a great position, but nor is he. I've got the plane in a turn for a moment, and the F-14 does the same, but checking our relative speeds, it won't give me an advantage. Instead, I push vertical again. As the F-14 starts getting his nose on, I can see he won't be able to get a firing solution if I maintain altitude, so rather than continue immediately for a loop, which could endanger me, rather than put me on his tails, I hold altitude, then as he overshoots, nose up and very low on energy, I decide I've had enough and am going to get my bird into the mid 400's and just see what happens in a one-circle since I capt prosecute him from my current situation. Accelerate and begin to start a very shallow turn to keep some sort of defense for when he recovers, but not so much as to lose my acceleration. The bird is speeding up and its sustained "g" numbers are climbing. The F-14 is turning into me, but now I've got more "g" and a higher rate on my bird than he does. I've got about 9g on the aircraft, and the AI is pitch pulsing, averaging about 7 or so. As I get towards his seven o'clock he makes the standard AI mistake of reversing, and I end up right on his tails. The F-14 is a huge airplane, so landing a hit on him with guns isn't the most difficult issue, however, he is flinging that bird around very well. At one point I damn near overshoot! Tight high yo-yo, get my bearings straight, get back on his tails, get gun tracking, burst 1 takes out the port engine and some flaps. More following but finally burst 2 brings him down. (Near overshoot) Takeaways: In about the 450-480KIAS range, the F-16N will just pull like a mad man (~9-9.5g sustained). I guess I haven't fought against the F-14B in a while because it wasn't as easy as I remember, but it certainly wasn't too tough. I was still driving the fight, and once I got the Viper into that sweet spot, it worked out pretty damn quick.

I agree. We are, and realistically, it is of no consequence. The Tomcat is retired, it was on the same side as the F-15, -16 and -18 when it was in service (mostly), we modeled the FM alright for a home computer game, and that's about good enough for me.

If you consider full fuel, the Tomcat is always going to show as a disadvantage, since it also carries the most internally compared to any other Teen-series aircraft. It takes fuel to get to the combat arena, and it is assumed missiles will have been fired before-hand, so combat weight is listed in all of my sources as 60% fuel, 2 Sparrow, 2 Sidewinder - this is out of date since the Sparrow is largely replaced now by the AMRAAM. At that weight, the bird will produce between a range of about .96:1 and 1.06:1 depending on altitude and airspeed. While I know the F-14 isn't the only fighter to use the lifting body design (the F-15 does as well), it's been published repeatedly just how much the pancake does for the Tomcat. And apparently, the GE's do push the F-14 a lot better, or Thrust to Drag is much in the Tomcat's favor compared to Thrust to Weight. Otherwise, it wouldn't out accelerate the F-15! From the pilot standpoint, the A model was vastly superior even to slatted Phantoms. Although I've spoken to several of the pilots on the matter, one in particular, with time in the F-8, F-4, F-14 and F/A-18 put it this way: "F-8 and F-4 with equal pilots (1v1), the F-4 will kick the sh*t out of the F-8 at any altitude on any day, every time. Too bad the F-4 had no gun! What a mistake and not one repeated in future fighters!!! Then, when the F-4S came forth with, leading edge slats, smokeless motors, digital auto acquisition radar and VTAS...WOW... what a sheen! Your next question is going to be, how did this Phantooon do against the F-14A (1V1). It took it in the shorts! [got raped by the F-14] Anytime, any speed, any altitude, any day...even with a mediocre pilot in the Tomcat!" This, from a pilot with 2 combat cruises in the F-8, and prior to flying the Phantom, having been of the opposite opinion just from personal experience. His opinion of equal pilots in a fight against the F-16 was that an A should lose every time, but in a B or D, the F-16 "made a nice lunch" in a clean configured guns fight. That's a pretty damn big disparity. If you want to start pulling out the charts, I'm afraid I'll just shut up. They're unclass, but they ain't releasable.

Well, not quite. The F-14 is the best wing loaded with the pancake considered (generating as much as 443sqft of extra lift and doesn't stall until 35 degrees alpha, with a resultant wing loading in a turn of about 52lb/sf at combat weight, which puts it at the lowest wing loading from a classical standpoint.) and the B/D is in the region of 1:1 TW at combat weight, better than 1:1 with 2 Sparrow, 2 Sidewinder and 50% fuel (dependent on altitude and airspeed, as with any other fighter). Which is why you have to be careful when you say "The F-14" - the A model at combat weight runs about .8:1, and then if you consider Phoenix pylons, the pancake ain't working, so in that instance, yes, you end up with a worse handling aircraft. Hence why operationally, if F-14's were on CAPs or Sweeps, they'd usually carry Sparrow and Sidewinder (such as in the Su-22 and MiG-23 shoot downs, no Phoenix were on board in either instance), but for patrols where bombers were the key factor, or in blue water ops where a mix might be appropriate, and stand-off shots expected, Phoenix would be carried. Its pilots attest to the difference in handling with and without the Phoenix pylons attached to the jet.

Man...using "We Are The World" in the background...total jerk league, North Korea!

Eric, no reason to shoot any Super Bugs; it has already been shown from a player perspective that an AIM-54 can and will shoot down an AIM-120D laden foe, so there's no reason to give up once one takes off. I think you might want to try to take your AIM-120D's against a similarly equipped opponent and try the turn and run tactic, because in my own experience, I've tried to run from an incoming missile fired at Rmax and it catches me well beyond the missile's maximum range (though this WAS at older patch levels). Also, the AI doesn't usually take maneuvering measures against incoming missiles, it just dumps chaff, so he'll fly right into the incoming missile regardless of airframe (happens a lot to me going against MiG-29's and it makes me irate when a missile misses a non-evasive target - I blame it on bad fuzing!) Boulder, the F-14B was more maneuverable than the A for sure, but it depends on what altitude and airspeed you're fighting at. The F-14B was a hell of an accelerating airframe out to about 1.6M; most of the Tomcat drivers and RIO's I've spoken to have said the bird will out-accelerate any other Teen-Series jet except for the F-16C Block 30 (specifically) at nearly any altitude, but that in a "drag race" the Viper would run out of fuel far more quickly. Even with the more powerful engines, the F-14B/D doesn't fight as well at very high altitudes as, say, an F-15C (25-35k). Like you explained against the F-14A, keep your speed up, keep him at high altitudes, and you should be able to out turn or out fight him in the vertical. The tricky part is that the F-14B corners about 100-120 knots slower than the F-15, so his radius is smaller, and it doesn't take as much "g" to achieve a higher rate at the lower airspeed. That said, so long as you keep your F-15 at higher speeds, maintain higher rates longer at higher "g", maybe your F-14B opponent will get his nose in your direction a few times, but he shouldn't be able to hold it there, especially if he's nose-up. In an F-16, I'd recommend the same thing, only maybe not as high up (20-25k-ish), faster speed and higher g with higher sustained turn rate. Don't get slow against an F-14 in the F-16! This was a tactic usable even in the F-14A; beat the Viper down on speed and watch it run into its limiters. The F-14 has none, and with the flaps down it has been proven historically that the underpowered "A" can pretty easily have the F-16 if the Viper driver takes the bait and gets slow. Higher speeds, however, and it shouldn't be too difficult, just remember he'll probably have a smaller radius. For the F-22, I'd suggest checking your weight. If memory serves, it is a HEAVY bird with 100% fuel in-game. Either that or I've got an older model of it, and it has been updated. I think it's somewhat compensated for by the engine thrust, but the lighter the better.

I'm not surprised, macelena, for the reasons listed above. I think something I ought to add is that my post might seem too cynical. In terms of lessons learned or recommendations, Boulder got it spot on - against an AI F-14, when flying the F-15, keep your speed up and try to keep the fight at high altitude. The TF-30's are garbage up there and the AI isn't likely going to be able to squeeze very much out of the fight. You should have him in no time. For the F-14A, you want to draw an F-15 to lower altitudes, where the TF-30's aren't so anemic and you can better turn with the F-15. Keeping the bird in the mid 300's KIAS can keep you cornering inside of it and win the fight with relative ease. If you can get him to slow even further, so much the better! In the 1v1 listed up there, I got above the F-15, so by diving, I didn't have to worry so much about the engine thrust since I also had gravity going for me.

The problem with the F-15 v F-14 scenario in TW is that the AI doesn't handle either bird very well, as I can easily show this in a guns fight. From my perspective, even in the underpowered F-14A, it's difficult to lose against any model F-15 at any altitude or airspeed. Against an F-15C in the F-14A_74? Pull twice and you've won. Most basically, get above the F-15 early on. In the instance of this DACT session 1v1 with a fully fueled F-14A, we get contact at about co-altitude 15k, I climb above the Eagle to about 23k. As the Eagle pointed his nose, I pulled down into him. This provides me an advantage with gravity and him a disadvantage working against it. The Eagle begins a descending hard turn into me after we pass each other, but coming down from on high, there isn't much he can do to get away. I roll and pull into his turn, get lead, guns, done in under 80 seconds. Bit o' altitude Bit o' turn Guns... Just to prove the point... 1v4 guns only F-14A_74 v F-15C: This started very similarly, get a bit of altitude, but in this case, you've got 3 other guys to worry about. In this instance, the Eagles split up into 2, a "kill" group and a "bait" group, like has been discussed in this forum before. After initially going for the aft two Eagles, I notice group 1 is turning for my tails at about 23k, so I break off the attack on the bait guys and turn into the kill group - both Eagles and I are in descending turns. Because I'm so heavy, I'm bleeding speed more quickly, but this works out in my favor - by calculating the burn, I get inside one of the two "kill" Eagles, let him pass and get a quick guns kill as his wingman continues towards my six. I go into a descending turn, and the "bait" group starts turning to attack me after I splashed their buddy. What happens next is a furball of varying altitudes and airspeeds, but one thing doesn't really change - we never get much above 10k feet throughout the climbs, turns, etc. In general, I'm just trying for easy pickings, while watching who is coming at me to shoot while I'm trying to prosecute a target. Not a one of the Eagles ever gets even a snap shot on me, but they're doing a good job at covering as well. Eventually, two end up at higher altitude and noses pointing away, and I drive for the one straggler at low altitude, get on his six, and saw his left tail off, and set him alight. The remaining two Eagles try to disengage. One climbing away, but I've got enough speed to catch him and shoot him in the tail. The last one is easy pickings, run him down, mission accomplished. Went defensive after hitting him, turned towards the last two and this one spiraled in Runner 1 Runner 2 Like I said earlier, the larger fighters don't do so hot in AI hands. If I'm in a Super Fox Skyhawk, an F-14 or F-15 is just too damn easy, regardless of model (F-14B/D, F-15SE or otherwise advanced included). The Flanker series is relatively benign (it burns too much speed and winds up a sitting duck). The only opponent that gives me a challenge is usually the F-16 or an experimental bird. The new F-5N can be tricky and in 2v2 or 1v2 against the A-4F Super Fox can yield some interesting fights, but as a player in the F-14 (any model), I don't feel there is much that can threaten me. It works with the F-15 as well from a player perspective. Go against either bird under AI control? Cake. EDIT: The MiG-17 and MiG-19 in a guns only fight can be a hand full in a 1 or 2 v many scenario as well, in my opinion! In the BVR arena, it's also a bit one-sided, since the AI doesn't use the same tactics as the player aircraft. An AI F-15 is way too easy to bag in an F-14 with the AIM-54, just like the Super Bug (shown earlier) and most other non-stealth aircraft, and vice-versa. Stay low and the missile is going to have a hard time if the opposing aircraft even gets a lock.

The Tomcat can launch with 6 AIM-54, 2 AIM-9, tanks and everything, but bringing it back aboard is a whole 'nother story. An A will launch at about 71,300, a B or D just below 73,000 pounds so configured. The max trap weight of the F-14 is 54,000 pounds, which is difficult to achieve with all 6 Phoenix on board and enough gas for three go-arounds. That's why you'd only see the Turkey with 6 AIM-54 for photo shoots, and it would only launch operationally with 6 AIM-54 if it was planning on shooting them a la Red Storm Rising. It could land at an airbase with 6 AIM-54 - max field landing with min descent rate was 60,000 pounds. So, yes, that is a valid loadout, and one that could be launched from a carrier, but you'd have to fire some of those missiles, or jettison them, or come back on vapors. Mandatory screenie: AMRAAMs...gobs and gobs of 'em!

ALCON, A little video I did just to give some insights to recover the Turkey from a flat spin in the event you find yourself in one in SF2.

Romflyer, Just to let you know, forward stick with stick into spin does work, but it doesn't work as well as aft stick. This somewhat emulates the "piss-poor" NATOPS procedure (to quote certain Turkey drivers) in that the bird will stop spinning with rudder against spin, stick forward, lateral into spin, but you need positive airspeed for this to happen. If the bird is reading negative airspeed, go stick/rudder neutral, wait for positive, then go rudders counter, stick forward, then as the bird slows, stick lateral into spin. Real world, if this doesn't work, that's when you pull stick aft, rudder counter, stick lateral into spin (SAS On if off) and the bird should start righting itself, based on the bold-face. Both work in the SF2 world, but stick aft works better. V/R, Caesar

Got paid and picked up a membership as well. Thanks for all your hard work Erik!

Running the latest level.

Not a lie! Latin was my minor in college, however, several of the students in my upper level Latin classes also did Ancient Greek since they were Classics majors (Syracuse University had Classical Language as a major and minor program. Prose is one thing, but poetry...egh! Hated it!). Mandatory screenies: Gypsy loaded for Bear Devil at Angles 80 Black Lion CAG bird Ghostrider at the ready

Hero, This might help: http://combatace.com/topic/44798-adding-aircraft-to-campaigns-in-sf2/ I don't know how it affects Mercenary campaigns, but you might need to modify some of the entries in the campaign.ini file.

F-14A_74 vs MiG-29A Loadouts: F-14A: gun, 75% fuel MiG-29A: gun, 100% fuel I don't remember if I posted an A-Tomcat vs. A-Fulcrum after CFMv2's implementation (I've done the fight before, but this time it's with the most current FM) so here it is. I also wanted to fly the finalized VF-213 skin, hence why I didn't use a B or D! The fight started with the aircraft about 20NM from each other, as is the standard. I picked up the Fulcrum about 15 miles away, nose on and above me (I was at 15K, he was about 17K). I know that I want to be higher than him so I can force him to make his first move working against gravity, and mine working with it. Plug in the blower and get to just over 20K. At the merge, I pull down into the Fulcrum and he pulls up, but what happens next isn't a vertical looping fight. Rather, as I pull back up, the Fulcrum remains in a descending energy sustaining turn, pulsing between 3 and 11g (FYSA, I don't think I got my bird above 7g the whole fight). I know I'm not going to try to go into a circle...yet...but my TF-30's don't give me any advantage in a vertical fight. There are two descending half loops I perform as the Fulcrum does it's thing. The second one puts me somewhere near the MiG-29, and I slide into the circle. He's going too fast and I get my bird slower, inside his turn at about the same rate, but not enough for a gun solution. The Fulcrum ends up in my center quarterpanel twice, and I try for two snap shots, but none connect. As my Tomcat maintains its turn, the Fulcrum stays in the region of the sight, but just outside gun parameters. We're descending anyhow, roll the F-14 on it's back, another "extended" Split-S (had to gain a bit of altitude to meet him) and then pull for lead. Not quite, try again, and this time I've regained well more than enough energy to match his rate, but I do it too good. He burns some energy and starts pulling for my 4 o'clock. Seeing what's about to happen, I roll the F-14 into him and perform a slow speed barrel roll over him, then pull for his six. He's got more energy than me (clearly) and starts circling again, and nearly the same thing happens again, only this time, as I start getting lead in my turn, I let off the stick to relax the F-14's turn and the MiG flies past. Pull hard on the stick and the MiG is back on the nose. He's shot past at very low altitude and has to pull up to avoid hitting the ground. Raise the flaps a notch, and begin the chase! The MiG driver makes a few pulls after I take two snap shots, but my speed is good enough to match anything he does. A few moments later he tries to make a left hand turn, but not before my final burst of Vulcan rounds find and saw off his right wing. The total fight time was about 5 minutes. TAKEAWAYS: Generally, I don't try to match the MiG-29 at high speeds in an F-14A because I know he'll outrate me. Instead, getting the fight slow typically ends up working in my favor. The AI doesn't like to slow down too much, and I wind up roughly matching rate at a smaller radius, which keeps me on the offensive. If the AI gets low, that's just fine with me! From history, I know it's got a lot better chance of hitting the ground than I do. Diving Leveling out, first snap shots followed Low altitude pull On the Fulcrum's tails Splash Blacklion 200 (different mission) finished

Yeah, I guess you learned that lesson - In an F-14 or F-15, you do NOT want to go head to head with the majority of other fighters out there, because unless it's a Flanker-series, it's probably smaller than you! (and therefore, a more difficult target to hit!) Usually if I'm doing a XvX fight, and I tell my wingmen to attack, I anticipate at least one or two losses at the merge due to the aircraft's relative size to our opponents and the AI's likelihood to try to go for a head-on gun run. Every once in a while, the AI pilot doesn't make the mistake of trying for head-on guns and they perform somewhat admirably. It's for this reason I always have some angle off, even if the opponent is trying to put his nose in my direction as we're closing; I know I'm in a big bird, and a head on guns pass isn't my strong suit! "Now we know!" "And knowing is half the battle." "G.I. Joooooooooeeeeee!"

Well, forward stick is the standard NATOPS first step like what I used in I believe it was the third departure. If no recovery, stick into spin direction. If the spin gets worse, that's when you go to aft stick, lateral into the spin. For whatever reason, stick forward and rudder counter slows the spin in SF2, but always seems to fail to actually kick the bird out, while aft stick with counter rudder and eventually stick into spin direction works damn near every time. I could try it with forward stick, counter rudder and lateral stick into the spin as well, just found that stick aft seems to work better. Real world, however, one of the most effective ways to recover the F-14 from a developing flat spin, apart from hands off at the incipient phases, was to manually sweep the wings aft. This both lowered the amount of lift being generated, caused the aircraft's center of gravity to push further back, and the jet would typically be under control in about 6500 feet, nose down (based on real world examples). With regard to the engines, based on the bold face, they are idled to prevent a compressor stall, or in the event one already suffered a compressor stall, but the other was still running, to prevent that engine from exacerbating the spin due to asymmetric thrust.

Early Blacklions WIP (stars are kind of screwy right now...)

Some general observations about the F-5N in AI hands; I brought an F-14A and an F-14B up against it, and wow can that sucker fly! It wasn't too difficult to get on the Tiger's tail, but gunning it was a pain. In general, the AI pilot was able to keep the bird in a between 5 and 13g turn (yes, 13g) in the 380KIAS range, with myself glued to it, flaps down, about 4.5g in the F-14A. It was kind of like an advantage energy circle to the deck, when he had to pull up and I was able to gun him there. In the F-14B, it took quite a bit less time, but the AI pilot pulled a brilliant maneuver to try to redirect himself as I was sweetening my guns solution. At about 2000 feet in trail, we're both climbing, and I'm gaining a bit. Suddenly, I see this thing pull hard back, rudder roll and snap the nose straight for the ground, and lo and behold he is diving away! The distance was too great for him to get away, all I had to do was put the Turkey Beast on its back and pull, but if I ever had to explain a maneuver where someone flies up their own (insert non-family-friendly term for tail end of body here), it was that maneuver. I couldn't believe it! I managed the gun kill this time during the energy circle, without so much alpha necessary, I was able to get a stream of bullets in front of him and shear off his left wing. Needless to say, it's an impressive little bird! I'll have to take it up myself...though I don't plan on pulsing 13g out of it a bunch of times. EDIT: Brought it up against an F-15. It's a maneuverable little son of a gun to be sure! It seems more forgiving than the earlier FM, not as prone to departure. And man, can you snap the nose around! I'm liking it.

I'm not sure you can force the Bug into a spin; the plane can depart, but if memory serves, hands off typically is all you have to do to get it back in shape with all the computers it has running it. Viper typically doesn't unless you've got it in the wrong "category" (say, in a Cat 3 configuration and you leave it in Cat 1 - has happened before, I recall reading about the mishap), so I don't know if anyone will do those aircraft, but, say, the Phantom, Tiger, Crusader, other aircraft, it could help for players unfamiliar with the birds in the event they lose control.