FastCargo

Realistically, it doesn't cost any more to make one aircraft model over another. Cockpits are probably similar...the avionics references may change, but that's about it. I would imagine most of the cost of SF2NA was in the new avionics module, cruise missile interactions (ie targetable) and terrain engine.

FC

Well, I'd hope the DCS planes cost at least double, considering their fidelity level!

It was more interesting to me the amount of flyable aircraft you get in total. I had never counted until today. And not including the sub variants (one could argue an early F-4 is VERY different from a late model F-4)...

But it does give some idea of about how much an addon aircraft for the SF2 series will cost.

FC

I happened to be doing a 'clean and reinstall' of my TW SF2 series (using that fancy web installer) when I got curious as to how much it would cost to buy all of the SF2 series and the 2 expansion packs (no DLCs).

At current pricing, the number was just shy of $200 USD. So, of course, I then decided to see how much that was per aircraft.

With no sub variants, and counting the Shahak and Nesher as one aircraft, I ended up with a total of 18 flyables, for a cost of $11.11 each.

Once I deleted SF2 itself out of the cost (assuming all aircraft and variants in SF2 are available in the others, and losing the Desert terrain and Mercenary campaign), the price dropped to $9.44 per aircraft.

Random thoughts while working on random stuff...

FC

In another reality...

Soon, very soon!

FC

Dude, bring on the map! I want to cruise at Mach 3 for a hour....

FC

I'm curious, I've been recently getting into using Gimp and I'm wondering how 'it doesn't handle 32-bit TGAs properly'? I'm serious...I don't quite understand what the issue is in that I've been using it to make some TGAs and they seem to be fine...

Also, I just found out last night that Gimp can read, open, manipulate and save .PSD files...who knew? :)

FC

I had wondered what happened in that accident. At least he was able to keep it near the centerline.

FC

Two words for the future...online backup. There are several services that allow a ridiculous amount of online storage space for free. I use these services to store stuff I wouldn't mind if it went public, but would be annoyed if I lost (like my modding stuff). Some even have auto sync and will auto update everytime you change a file. I'm surprised more folks don't do this for non personal stuff.

Sorry to hear about your computer issues.

FC

In summary, what right have the likes of Steam, and any other companies like them, have to dictate to me, or to any other consumer ?

As long as you consume the product, companies have some say in how it is consumed because they created it. Pretty sure a drill company isn't going to cover your expenses because you used their product as a rectal thermometer.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. You do not have to buy the product. Period.

How'd we all manage to get by just fine, all those great years we've enjoyed PC gaming, without it?

Because piracy was difficult back then...not now. Also, games cost MUCH more to develop, but have actually gotten cheaper over time.

Don't believe me?

First, read this...all of it. This is still the best article I have read about the subject...in depth, researched, referenced, and balanced.

http://www.tweakguid...m/Piracy_1.html

And an overview of how game development costs have increased over time:

http://en.wikipedia....ame_development

Note that for instance, GTA IV is estimated to have cost $100 MILLION dollars to develop. Yet, new, it's original price was $45 USD in 2008.

Typical development for an A list game now is 30-40 MILLION dollars.

20 years ago, a PC sim highly regarded, with many purchases (for the size of the market) for its time, F-19 Stealth Fighter, was the exact same price back then. Inflation means that PC games should be worth $80 USD if sold today.

Also, that means that PC games back then should have cost 15-20 MILLION USD in 1988 dollars to develop...pretty sure they didn't cost that much back then to make.

But they aren't, yet are far more capable then the games of yesteryear.

So, can I sum this up for ya? Games cost far more to develop because they are so much more capable, yet the inflation adjusted price has dropped by almost half. Piracy of any sort of scale back then required banks of copying machines (either floppy disk or CD-ROM copy 'racks') and a distribution network...now only requires a high speed internet connection.

Get it yet? More money to create, less money made per copy, and easier to get illegal copies. Any wonder why companies keep coming with new ways to try to protect their investment, help pay for development and put off the eventual losses each title will sustain once it is pirated?

FC

I want to say I think it was Monty as well....

FC

All you need is an .obj or .fbx exporter. Almost every 3D package can import/export .obj.

The link I posted is for FBX. I have found that OBJ import/export from/to Blender/3ds MAX has resulted in more distortions than the FBX method. The main reason I am going to focus on Blender (and to a lesser extent, Gimp) is that:

1) They are open source, widespread, and free...no shareware, no time periods, no cost, not tied to any particular large company (which is why I don't use Sketchup).

2) They are powerful with comprehensive features.

3) There is widespread and detailed documentation on use.

4) They are portable...you can run both of them from a USB stick.

FC

I was thinking that myself there Eric.

Also, McFly's tutorials are for MAX, and some of them, especially the mapping tutorial, are very much out of date.

FC

Okay, first thing I've found for Blender:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro

Looks like a comprehensive guide to Blender...it can even be downloaded as a single PDF file. I will be using this as a basis for getting familiar with how Blender works (I went from GMax to 3DS Max, so I never got familiar with Blender).

Looking at just the basic beginning, the document already goes into common terms and usages for 3D modeling (coordinates, rotations, etc) so it's a good resource just for learning the terminology that modelers use.

Global scaling is very easy in MAX...it can be done by a tool visually, or the parameters can be typed in.

FC

Okay, some encouraging signs of interest so far.

Upfront, here is the technique used to bring a Blender file into 3DS Max:

http://wiki.openuru.org/index.php?title=Importing_Blender_Objects_To_Max

Note that most of the work is done by the person with MAX, but even then, it is pretty simple. I verified this technique yesterday and can confirm that it works a treat and imported the model perfectly (including the mapping).

Anyway, my goals are the following:

1) To remove most of the traditional barriers to modding...mainly, the cost associated with 3DS Max and therefore expand the range of talent.

2) To increase the portability of being able to mod. Due to recent circumstances, I find myself at computers that typically don't have or can't run what I use (3DS Max, Photoshop, etc).

3) To educate folks on exactly the effort required by letting them try it themselves.

To this end, I plan on using Blender for my next 3D project, and using Gimp for the templates for my current 3D project.

While I am educating myself on both Blender and Gimp, my plan is to upload an example of a Blender aircraft ready for conversion to 3DS MAX, and hopefully an example of a Gimp template to use to build textures. As well as find appropriate tutorials suited to Blender and Gimp for our purposes. What I won't be doing is making a tutorial here...there is simply too much to explain to be able to do it well, or in a timely fashion. The idea is that potential model builders need to simply get out there and flail a bit....that is really the best way to learn.

FC

As some know, and maybe more need to find out, the only program that will create a 3d object that Strike Fighters can use (with the ThirdWire exporter)is called 3DS Max, specifically 3ds Max 2009, 32 bit (noted as MAX), to make the latest versions of files the ThirdWire sim engine can use. NO other program can be used to create objects directly. However, 3DS Max is a four-figure cost program, and even the student version (if you can buy it) is a mid 3 figures. As such, it is out of legal reach to most.

So, some folks try to create files in other, cheaper (or free) programs and then convert them to something that MAX can read. However, most conversions result in loss of data or distortions, or worse, resulting in lots of work for the person with MAX, sometimes to the point that creating a new model would have been easier. Which means, a lot of times, most folks with MAX are not willing to take on conversions for other people.because of this.

The reason is that from the start of model building to the final export to the ThirdWire format, the following things occur:

Construction of the overall model

Cutting the model into specific parts (wings, ailerons, etc)

Smoothing the parts

Assigning pivot points (hinges)

Linking the parts together in a hierarchy tree

Animations where needed (landing gear, canopy, etc)

Texture mapping - telling the model how to wrap a 2-D picture onto a 3-D object

Assigning textures/materials to the model

Most 3d modelers will tell you that other than the actual initial construction and cutting of parts, the most time consuming, tedious part of making a model is the mapping. Unfortunately, most conversions from other formats lose exactly that...requiring the MAX user to rebuild the mapping from scratch.

I've done conversions from a few other formats before and dropped them because I had to redo the mapping...none for me thanks.

However, I have very recently come upon a technique that allows files made in Blender (a free and powerful 3D object program) to be converted to MAX with no loss of mesh data or mapping. Instead of conversations from other formats now consuming several days, a conversion from a Blender object to a object ready to be used in a ThirdWire sim can take a day at most. The MAX user need only reassign pivot points, animations, hierachies and textures...then exporting the file to the ThirdWire format.

What this means is that the bar for making custom aircraft, ships, buildings, etc, is now within anyone's reach. If you want a custom object...you can make it (including the 3d object building, textures, and ini entries) all with free, legal, open source programs. All the MAX user you ask politely to convert your model for you needs to do can be done in a day, or more than likely, just a couple of hours.

But you need to do the other work. If you're not willing to put in the effort...don't expect anyone else to help you get there.

Interested? Respond here...

Again, I don't necessarily mind complaining. To an extent, complaining is good. We all do it about everything every once in a while. It's actually healthy in that it relieves tension and 'gets it out there'. We have a saying in flying circles...'A pilot isn't happy unless he is unhappy about something'.

But, like anything else, it can be overdone.

Now, TK and DanW are big boys, and can take a bit of ribbing about this or that like anyone else. But, like anyone else, there are good days and bad days, and the same joke that would be funny one day may not be funny the next. There is always a balance to be struck, and sometimes the line is a bit fuzzy.

Remember, ultimately, TW is a business, and as such, decisions are made in pursuit of that business...they are not made just to annoy you. They may have that side effect, sure, but it isn't personal.

Remember, this is a hobby. Hobbies are meant for enjoyment...if you aren't having fun, maybe it's time to move to something else for a while.

FC

PS And before anyone asks, I do not work for TW in any way, shape or form. They have not said anything to me to intervene in any way...my posts are my own opinions and are not to be taken as gospel from CA or TW.

he mighta been referring to me posting the Austin Power's video saying that it was TK and DW on Jerry.

I suspect this was the comment that sent the thread over the top along with your expression of glee at finding a bug in the A-4 DLC.

Folks, bitching about changes or directions developers take with their products is fine. Constructive critique is better. But really, the best way to influence what you want to see in the future is to vote with your wallet and your modding time. If it becomes too much, move on to somewhere else...it really is that simple.

FC

Well, technically considering the series doesn't address campaigns past the early 1980s, it's surprising that there is any support for GPS weapons at all.

Having said that, it's a bummer the latest patches 'broke' them. Since GPS weapons are coordinate weapons, they work similar to INS weapons (in fact a lot of GPS weapons are actually INS weapons with GPS updating). has anyone tried to switch to INS guidance with low CEP to see if they work properly?

FC

It's okay to walk away...we all do it at one time or another. A hobby is meant to be enjoyed...if you aren't enjoying it, it is time to take a break.

Good luck!

FC

Note the original name of the image was "This means you, Dave!" Coincidence?

FC

Jug,

Great story...had more than a few incentive rides upchuck in the back seat...could still smell it up front! Most of them got it in the bag...but had one kid fill the bag and then it burst.

That wasn't pleasant....

FC

Now that I would like to read!

As long as it isn't '50 Shades of Grey'...or is it '50 Shades of Gray'...

FC

(cough) Haven't I've done dedicated tileset/treemod for it called GH3(cough)

Speaking of which, does GH3 still work with the current patch level on SF2V terrain?