Tailspin

Cool. Have a beer or 5 for me while you're at it.

Yeah, we're all guilty of being harsh from time to time, but you have to realize what its like to have to answer the same basic questions all the time. I'd wager that most people wouldn't have the patience it takes to do so without being a little "short' with someone now and then. Some of you might want to reserve some criticism until you've walked a mile in our shoes. However MJ does raise a valid point. Everyone deserves the benefit of a doubt. The problem is with the Thirdwire series sooner or later you're going to have to learn to do things for yourself or you're not going to get much out of the sim. You can give a man some fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life. All we're really trying to accomplish is to teach you how to fish. Sometimes we fail in the method...we're just as "human" as anyone else.

I was gonna send you here http://cplengineeringllc.com/SFP1/ but it appears they are doing some work to the site.

Damn, I missed this one yesterday. Happy birthday, Dave!!!!

You have to have First Eagles for the EP to work. The Expansion Pack is an add-on not a stand alone. There should be a patch coming for First Eagles that will incorporate the improvements made in the Expansion Pack but it won't have the new terrain and planes that come with the EP. The Expansion Pack is an improvement over First Eagles in a lot of areas however there are compatibility issues with third party aircraft...mostly AI. Thats what most of the discussions about FE vs. FE+EP are about. A fully modded First Eagles is no slouch of a flightsim IMHO. If you want, buy First Eagles and patch it up to Patch 2 v.02.19.07 and see if you like it. I'd already had First Eagles for quite some time so buying the EP wasn't a factor for me. In fact the Expansion Pack actually has more new stuff (1 new Terrain, new flyable aircraft with several variations of those, ie 2 Alb DIIIs, three Camels, the Alb DV and DVa, the DR1, plus getting the 2 AI SPAD VIIs flying is an easy mod) than the original for the same price. I can understand not wanting to spend $60US sight unseen though. The main sticking point for getting everything going in the EP right now is the upcoming patch and what possible further changes it will make. Nobody wants to spend too much time working on incorporating all the add-ons and A/C etc until the patch is released and we see whats going on with it.

Hi hurricane3. Skins and decals are not one of my strong points. We do have several resident experts but like Jarhead says it Easter weekend so its bound to be slower than normal around here.

Ok, thanks. I think I'll still play around with a few things just to satisfy my own curiosity. I think I have discovered why the new N28 won't pull out of the dive...the lift coefficients for the elevators are lower than in the previous version. Now, I ain't b**chin'. I know its tuned for dogfighting performance and not high speed dive testing. ....can ya tell I'm bored?

Hmmm....Peter, I don't know how much time you've already spent on the stress damage issue but after playing around with it a little bit it looks to me like this can be fine tuned somewhat to achieve a reasonable effect and be tailored to specific aircraft such as the N28 and the Albs. Perhaps if you find the time you could PM me with your discoveries relating this and the AI etc. I'm very interested in working on this but I don't want to waste too much time going over what already been hashed out...if you know what I mean.

Hi Tooner. Its difficult to say. There is a patch in the pipeline for First Eagles. Actually we will probably get two patches. One an update/bug fix type patch for the EP and another an upgrade for First Eagles to EP standards without the Cambrai terrain and the new aircraft introduced in the EP. What comes after that depends on whether the FE series is making TK enough money to warrant more investment in another addition. I hope forum participation isn't an indicator.....

LOL. I was just trying to prove a point about the inequity between the N28 and the Albatross where both had the same sort of problem with diving and wings breaking. Actually the problem with the N28 came as a surprise. I was diving on a bunch of Fokkers a couple thousand feet below and wasn't really pushing it that hard and it refused to pull up. So I thought, "Which planes do this and which can I break on purpose?" To my surprise the Albs won't break. Part of the problem may be that they won't dive as fast as other planes so its harder to get the sustained G forces to break them. My opinion is that if you dive them too fast they (the Albs) should break as is documented in RL. Peter. As I said so far as I've tested most planes don't exhibit the lack of control response. You can yank the stick back in a 240mph dive and they will pull up...and fall apart. Its not so much about the ones that will break....its the ones that won't. Anyway, I'm not trying to get you to change them as you've done quite enough and are to be commended. I'm just commenting on what and possibly why so I might get some ideas from you on whats going on. In case I want to try and "fix" them myself. I'm reminded of Red Baron where you couldn't just "jerk" some planes around with impunity because you'd get structural failure. This is one of the problems I have with the EP FMs...to easy to just yank and bank. Of course thats a personal preference I suppose. BTW...I'm not getting any blackouts. Redouts on the nose over, yes, but no blackouts.

Ahh....I see. The way the N28 behaved in the dive was exactly like the modification done by Tex. My mistake. What contributed to that error on my part was that, oddly enough, of all the planes tested the N28 and the Snipe, to a lesser extent, were the only planes that exhibited this behavior. But as I said, I didn't test them all. I did find that breakage only seemed to occur, in those that it occurred at all, at extreme speeds and extreme G loads. It does exist in some stock planes, the Dr. 1 at least, and in the Tripe and Pup. I've flown "normal" maneuvers in most of these planes and they rarely pull more than 3 or 4 Gs at most. Perhaps there is a happy medium in there somewhere. Maybe I'll get lucky and find it.

Did a few more test flights diving various A/C from 6500ft. to speeds over 230-240mph and it doesn't seem to be any particular maker's model rather its dependent on the A/C. I did find that the old N28 FM that doesn't model compressibility does break under high g-load so I'll use that one. :yes: However I couldn't get the Albs to break...up to 8Gs and no damage at all. The stock Dr 1 does. The Snipe is reluctant to pull out (compressibility I suppose but not as bad as the N28 ) but it did and didn't show damage. Pfalz DIII only slight damage. Dolphin no damage. Didn't try them all. Maybe a bit of compressibility is good as surely at high speeds the control response did stiffen up but in the case of the N28 maybe its a bit overdone and not entirely necessary to achieve the desired effect? Also I think we need to "spread the love" where its applicable. Again JMHO. I'll shut up now. Thank for listening.

I'm not saying the N28 didn't have wing problems...just that the Albs did too. Sort of a related issue....I've been testing a few planes and there seems to be a disparity as to how much stress the planes can handle and how they behave in dives. For instance the Alb DIII will "automatically" start to pull out of a power on dive at @ 200mph unless you roll it while you are diving. Then you can dive it a speeds approaching 250mph. However you can pull as much as 7+ Gs and it will suffer no damage. You can dive the Tripe that fast (probably not realistic) and pull out at 7+ Gs and it will literally disintegrate! Not saying any of this is Peter's doing either. Its just an anomaly I've discovered. Note that the Tripe is an add-on plane and the DIII is a stock model. Maybe worth looking into the differences for future damage model considerations. Now I'm curious to find out if this trait carries over to other planes. :yes:

Ok, another bone to pick. (You may get tired of hearing from me, Peter. ) Its about the N28. I see you've reintroduced the "compressibility" thing to try and simulate the problem with wing fabric shedding pulling out of a steep power on dive. I'll refer you to this link for some clarification of the "problem". See the section on Service Issues. http://www.airminded.net/n28/n28.html Anyway, regardless of whether or not I personally agree with this approach (I don't BTW), if you are going to use this to simulate diving problems then IMO all the Albatross series needs to have this incorporated too. The Albs were well documented to have a problem with breaking wings during high speed dives and the Germans never really totally solved the problem even in the V series. I don't have an issue at all with wings and tails breaking under too much stress, in fact this happened to me when I dove too fast in the Tripe. The tail broke off when I pulled up too hard. Great feature IMO. I just don't think the inability to pull out at all is the way to go for the N28. However if thats the solution then it should apply across the board to other planes that had the same sort of deficiency. IMHO, of course.

Hate to say this but I wouldn't be surprised if TK didn't make further refinements in the flight model too. He has already indicated there will be improvements/refinements in the FM for WOI in the patch. http://bbs.thirdwire.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=5207

Thanks for the pointers Peter. I'll fly the DVII some more before I make the changes. By all accounts I've read the DVII should indeed be sensitive on the controls but also stable and well behaved with gentle stall characteristics and reluctance to spin. I think you've nailed the stall and spin characteristics. :yes: I'm not sure "edgy" fits the description of the DVII. Doesn't seem to be too stable a gun platform right now. I know what you mean about some sims and the differences in sticks too. I recall the original Rowan BoB sim was a twitchy mess when used with my old MS stick and nothing would fix it. Then I bought a new "digital" stick and all was well. I've already had to turn my stick sensitivity way down to fly the EP but I don't think this is a stick issue as most other planes in the EP don't have this problem. Anyway I'll double check to see if I haven't increased the dead zone or something.

Ok, will do. Seems to be more prevalent in some planes than others. Thanks.

I agree 100% on the SPAD XIII. Its a joy to fly using its speed and dive as an advantage. Its also unforgiving and will spin if you push it too far...something I think the Camels especially need more of, BTW. I like the DVII too except I think its a bit too unstable on the elevators while trying to line up a shot. Should be a bit smoother there, IMHO. Maybe the auto trim line Firecage suggests will help? Thats about all I've had time to try at any length so far. I'll be taking out the Tripe and Pup next.

Since Peter has added a new EP FM update for the ATeam's Sopwith Pup the option for using P10ppy's excellent Le Prieur Rocket mod is essential IMHO. Well, here's the data you'll need. I copied this data directly from my working copy of the Pup_data.ini and it should work fine. However, if you have problems, please contact me in this thread and we'll see if we can get it working. Of course you'll have to get Poppy's original mod for the SPAD VII and add the rockets to the WeaponData.ini accordingly. P10ppy_s_Le_Prieur_Rockets_for_the_Pup.zip

Thanks Peter. You da man!

Hmmmm....well we all see different things I suppose. I've witnessed, more than once, entire enemy flights just land for no apparent reason and roll along on the ground. Alt-N often results in entire enemy flights crashing to the ground giving the player an excellent score without a shot being fired. The Bomb Target bug where if you take off on auto pilot on bombing missions your flight mates fail to follow waypoints and just climb steadily on the take-off heading is still present. Army co-op missions for some A/C causes a CTD. I think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of pilots going to ground when faced with unrelenting attacks or a damaged engine. Sure it happened too often in the game at first but a little engine armor reduced the frequency to a reasonable level. This was something that made First Eagles unique IMO. Yes, the AI are better fighters on both sides. Yes, you have to watch to your six more but I don't think its any harder to get kills in the EP. Like I said before, IMHO, the increased performance actually makes it easier. Not so sure about the damage model. It is improved somewhat. Reaction to losing wings and parts of wings is more realistic but control components still fly off with only one or two hits. Planes still continue to fly with no elevators or half a horizontal stabilizer. It may sound like I really don't like the EP. Not true, I really do. Between it and the last iteration of FE I fly them FAR more than any other flight sim I own. Yeah, its better but then it isn't. Really a mixed bag for me.

Hi sockboy. Although I have expressed some reservations about the EP, I do recommend you get it if you have the spare funds and the harddrive space. IMHO its worth the $30 US.

You should find almost everything here in the downloads section.

Thrust position is a variable controlled in the Engine section of the aircraft data.ini. Might be wrong but I don't think propwash and its effect on control surfaces is modeled.

Use the Force, Luke. Sorry...... I don't know if real world physics apply in the game as far as using formulas but the principle is the same. A bomb dropped at a certain attitude (level, diving climbing), altitude, and speed will fall a certain distance before it hits the ground. Variables to that will be drag. Different sizes (diameters) and shapes will change distance. If all those factors don't change the the bomb will , theoretically, hit the same spot every time. You can either find the imaginary aimpoint for a predetermined attitude, alt., speed or pick an aimpoint, such as the nose of the aircraft as you see it from the cockpit, and adjust attitude, alt. and speed to hit your target. Heck, I suppose you can even use the A to G pipper if your aircraft has one but you'll still need to figure out the variables. Best advice, download the Bombing Range and practice. You'll eventually get a "feel" for it.