TexMurphy

E3 should not outclimb N11. Ive not looked much but it seems to be hard to find climb rates of the E3 but looking at the power to mass relationships is a good indicator. As newtons second law stats f=ma which equals a = f/m where in a vaccum state (no drag) thrst equals f. Now we do have drag in the equation. Accelleration is more or less the same as climb. So we can look at this as a guiding star. E3 has 100 hp and weighs 500kg (empty). That is 0.2 power to mass. N11 has 80hp and weighs 320kg (empty). That is 0.25 power to mass. IF we cant find hard numbers on the E3s climb rate Id say it should be about 25% slower then the N11. That would mean N11 does sea level to 3000 meter in about 15 min, hence E3 should do about 2250 meter in 15min. Im not claiming these calculations to be correct... though its something based on something that fits the fact that the N11´s owned the E3´s enough to put the end to an era... Tex

Im taking the liberty of starting the WIP thread for the N24. EmID has started the 3D model work and Ive started the FM work. Im moving the post by EmID from the N28 where he posts the information he has dug up on the plane. [qoute] There are a related article http://mkmagazin.almanacwhf.ru/avia/neupor_xxivbis.htm in russian :) hehe... there is a data for BIS on that page Power - 120 h/p Length- 6,4 m Wingspan- 8,15 m Wing Area - 15m2 Max waight - 567kg Speed - 170 km/h Climb to 3000m- 9,4min And here my digget up links: http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/npt24.htm http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.sear...inct_entry=true http://ww1.iatp.org.ua/awNewpor24c.htm http://www.cofe.ru/avia/N/N-46.htm http://eroplan.boom.ru/shavrov/chr5/forin/france3.htm http://aircraft.lintec.ru/src/mod/nieu_2427.htm [/qoute] What I would like to see more of is links or references from books on how the plane handled. Ive got a very interesting first FM which does model the difference in wing size quite well. Its still got alot of work to it but here are the main features I wana bring forward... 1. Extreamly small bottom wing. 2. Very large elevators. 3. Any other characteristics found in books. But I do think its important to model the visuals.. if it feels like it looks then you get immersion factor... Once there is a N24.rar to download the link will be posted in this thread. Tex

what is the climbspeed with the rewrite?? also have you checked collision/extent point mappings? My guess is that they arnt done in the original file... Also have you calculated the EmptyInerita as that is the most important FM Stat... Tex

I have that as well had all the time on all terrains... Its not that ATI cards are crap not had any problems on other games its more that TK needs to have better testing on more different cards... he will fix it though... Im quite sure of that..

Ok here is a updated file so that the N28 AI uses rudder.... Im posting it here as EmlD is the one who has to update it on the download section and you might want it before its updated.... Also Ive added the compression characteristics that you can see on the N24 and will se on the N11 and N17 as well. For other planes if you want them to have AI rudder you need to: a) wait for update by creator b) <plane>_data.ini file remove the [AIData] section and hence have the plane use default [AIData], then download and update when creator has posted new update c) <plane>_data.ini file add to the bottom of the [AIData] section RudderForGunAttack=1.0 RudderForHeading=0.5 RudderForYawRate=-0.1 this will allow you to use the AIData of that plane and AI Rudder until creator updates. Tex N28_data.txt

I definatly agree that game ballance is THE most important thing and Im no stranger to patching if needed... Its a bit of a shame that there hasnt been more feedback on the N24... All in all Ive gotten feedback from what 4-5 on the forums and 2 more via PMs... I think people are still a bit weary about discussing mods in public... not that strange after all... but I want to encourage the discussions as they improve the work... The N11 was very hard to ballance as it doesnt really have any counter part... Its created of the N24 with a weaker engine and smaller wings... Also nimble is relative... nimble compared to a E3... definatly... but we dont have a E3... nimble compared to the later planes that have better ailerons, elevators rudders, aerodynamics and engines? Im not so sure.... Imho that one is definatly the hardest to judge where it stands as it doesnt have a counter part... but please compare it to the DH2 and say what you think... Tex Edit: Roll rate was one of the final things I was adjusting as I felt its roll rate was a bit too high... Though even if I go back to the old values we stilll have the bad low speed roll behaviours which is what your experiencing... This I would assume comes from the EmptyInertia as the N11 compared to the N24 has less roll damping as it has small wings and has a bit smaller ailerons...

No strutts!!!!! ;)

Tailspin On a side note to this... when we look at diving... My opinion on the subject is that taking a WW1 fighter and diving it straight nose down drop to earth like a stone from 9000 feet, reach speeds of 250mhp+, start the pull up at 1000 feet and easily level out before ground level is just plain wrong... First I think the accell at high speeds is way to high hence increase in drag at high speeds... Still just doing that allows you to dive it down from 9000 and pull it up with ease at 500... This is where compression comes in it forces you to be more gentle in the dives... Alternative is TK´s "if you go to fast you will auto level" which imho is even worse... I was playing a plane with compression in a campaing and had a DFWC5 as my primary target... I was at 7000... it was at 1500 and its escorts where at 6000... without compression I would have just dove down and killed the DFWC5´s.... now I couldnt do that I had to work my way down there and avoid the Albs..... Tex

EmlD As Tailspin says the MaxControllSpeed is somewhat similar to this effect but it just gently fades contrll surface effectivness at speeds above the assigned value. It doesnt do much for our low speeds think its more suited for super sonic speeds. What I do is that I use the MachTable´s for the Cmq value (pitch damping) on the stabs... the dampning increases with speed which is effectivly the same thing as decreasing effectivness of the controll surface with speed... I wanted to do this directly on the Cmdc values (pitch moment due to deflection) but it didnt seem to have a MachTable... Tex

There is another thread that discusses how they stack with the rest but.... N24 and N17 get their butt handed to them by a AlbatrosD3... AlbatrosD2 vs N24 is the closest you get but still a Alb win... N11 is a bit of a loner... it doesnt have a natural enemy atm as the Fokker EIII isnt ballanced at all and in fact is more compareable to a FokkerD7F then a N11... so the only thing one can compare with is a DH2 and it does perform much better then the DH2 but still gets totally owned by a N17... Problem with moding is that many weaknesses cant be modeled... For example the N11, N17 and N24 all had the same weakness and that was the bottom wings twisting in steep dives giving very bad dive characteristics... This was due to the V strutt only having one mount point on the bottom wing and hence not stiffening it up rotation wise.. Compression isnt really a way to model it but it is definatly a way to model poor dive characteristics... That was how I got started with this effect. Then I realized the secondary side effect of this which is that it forces more vertical and more throttle management to get the most out of the plane. Tex

I could also add that the 17 will be released AFTER the 11... ;)

soon ... two weeks ... when they are ready ...

Ok so Ive got them ballanced decenty against each other... question is how should they stack against the other planes??? Condision of tests 7v6 mission where I fly the 7th plane... I give engage order and dive into the ground then watch AI fight it out... Currently AlbatrosD3 wins over all Nieuports... the N24s do inflict damage and sometimes get kills but they always loose... Others obviously do worse... N17s have very even battles against DH2s... These battles are draws as neither aircraft really has enough gunpower to kill the other with AI aim... also think patch 2 has reduced damage (not sure though)... N11s also lhave a even battle against the DH2s... same here too little ammo for AI to be able to do enough damage... How do you think the N´s should do against the Albatros D3 and the DH2. Im suffering a bit from not having decent german opponents... Tex

I would not recommend going to Vista until it has AT LEAST one service pack out.... It will take quite a bit before you see any benefits from having vista in games... TK has said over at the TW forums that FE along with all the SFP1 based games will be VISTA compatible somewhera after vista has launched but he is in no hurry... there have been reports of problems with FE and DX10 or what ever that direct x version is.... tex

Latest and most likely final version of the N24 FM... EDIT: EmlD I forgot the dates... could you please adjust them... ;) N24_data.txt

Ok done some more work on it and this is where I stand atm... AlbD3 > any of the N´s... with player pilots it would be tighter as now the N´s have problem finishing stuff off with their one gun and the AI doesnt use their good climb rate much at all... N24 is more or less a upgraded N17... its basicly more or less same wing and tail package on them... N24 has bit better ailerons and elevators... rudder obviously identical... N24 does get more rudder authority out of the rudder... N24 obviously beats N17 but it gets a good run for the money... after all the N24 wasnt that much better as it didnt get into large scale production.... N17 does beat DH2s but again bad aim of the AI and lack of vertical makes this fight more even then it should be... N17s do win over N11s the margin is bigger then against the DH2s which makes it feel good enough for my taste. Im most likely gonna submit my data files to EmlD and Monty tonight. Tex

Ill sleep on it... However Ive done a few things on the other Ns and that is to further increase high speed drag and to laten the compression... this results in the compression not appearing as suddenly as accelleration above 140mph is much slower now... Tex

not tried it yet but the rudder usage is a possible ground breaker for the fun of this game...

Tailspin The Cndc is one of the things Ive still got to sleep on. In generall I would say that most planes so far have too much rudder authority both yaw and induced roll. This is not just the N24 and N28 but all of them. Though the N´s are at least imho in line with the rest of the planes. What could be done is to increase yaw and reduce the induced roll. Problem with this though is that this will require increase in aileron authority and in return you get a plane which rolls pretty much pefectly without the need of rudder. Atm you really need to induce the roll, maybe not a high end skill but minimizing the importance of it would result in a more easy mode FM which I dont want. What Im trying to say is that part of me IS happy with the FM that is on the table atm but some part of me feels like Im missing something and that something could be done better. But then again one has to reach the "good enough for release" at some point. Especially since Im goning away on my 3 week sking trip to Fernie BC on Saturday. ;) Tex

OK here is a FM update. This one adds some caracteristics that got lost when we removed the VerticalTail section out of the ini file. Basicly its less side slippery. Tex N24_data.txt

Viper What I think your experienceing is the fact that you loose elevator controll at high speeds this results in your dives taking longer to pull up. If you are doing a vertical manouver you need to controll your speed on the exit. Its easy to just have your throttle cranked to max to get through the manouver and then leave it there as you exit. Generally to get the most out of the N24 (, N11 and N17) you need to manage your throttle. Your turn rate is much much better at 75-80ish mph then at 100mph. This does make E management harder but on the other hand E friendly manouvers like High YoYo´s very rewarding. Tex

Dont ask me about the art.. ;) Seriously I dont have Max and all I know about moding is stats in files that end with .ini. ;) While I could sit down and learn Max enough to create a skin layout which Im sure I could do over a weekend... Im not gonna bother because in a week Im goning to FERNIE!!!!!!! ;) Seriously my time is running short before my vacation and I wana get the 11 and 24 out the door before I leave for my 3 week sking vacation. So while I could learn it and make sure it gets done I just dont have the time before the vacation so you´ll have to wait till EmlD´s computer is back in action. Tex

I will pit them against 6 Alb3s... expect N24 to own them N17 to win slightly and N11 to loose... Tex

Just an FM update... The N17 is about to get into the FM factory this weekend... reason its not started is that Ive been working on the N24 and N11... by doing that it helps me to establish where I want the N17... right between the 24 and 11... I test under following conditions... fights are 6v6 AI vs AI... mission is a 7v6 where I lawn dart into the ground right of the bat and let the AI´s fight it out... making it a 6v6... Currently 28s beat 24s by a narrow margin. Usually just 2 or so 28s left flying. The 24s in turn devistate the N11s. 24s usually dont loose more then 1 maybe sometimes 2. My goal is to have the N17 ballanced in so that the N24 vs N17 is just as even as the N28 vs N24 and N17 vs N11 just as even.. This is done after the planes are through the speed, climb and general feel round. Tex

Im wondering if there is a map maker out there who can make a very simple map for me. What Id like to have is a map that has two airfields one fiendly and one enemy, no anti air guns and all terrain at sea level. That would be a great tool for FM moding. I could much more accuratly test climb rates. I could combat test aircrafts without AA gun involvement. Would be very greatfull. Tex