ordway

Back at it again!

Mig-17F cockpit nearing completion.

A repaint and repositioning of the Thirdwire Scooter's cockpit.

The Mig-17 initially had the same cockpit as the Mig-15 according to sources. Slowly it evolved to the Mig-17F-one of the main Vietnam and middle east combat variants.

According to photos these six following (at least) changes from the Mig-15Bis cockpit were added to the Mig-17F:

1. -Finally, the Russians added the rearview mirror as standard. Apparently on the previous Mig-15, it created too many technical problems to include...not that they didn't try.

http://www.vectorsite.net/avmig15_2.html

2. -The temperature gauge was changed according to some photos to add a big colorful half red circle in the middle and they eliminated the colorful rainbow gauge casing around it.

3. -A large red canopy handle was added on the coaming according to some photos (very colorful and distinctive!).

4. Instrument panel rivets started having long screw driver holes instead of being flush according to some photos.

5. The huge clock instrument under the artificial horizon attained a large shiny, silver-colored frame...a reward for graduating from the Mig-15, I guess!

6. More buttons and switches were added to the upper instrument coaming.

7. Finally, the American-style six diamond gunsight reticle replaced the old British-style round circle.

I cant wait for this pit to be released either. Hey Ordway, u maybe planning on maybe making a new MiG-23 flogger pit too after this later on from the MiG-21 pits?

 

J/K

I just uploaded it. Next will be the Mig-17 cockpit version of it...

Yep, its also very educational. I never paid attention to early jet age ADI's until the work of this sim's 3rd Party modders encouraged me to start looking around. The stock game jets all have the new versions, but they are more modern aircraft of course. I like the differences in ADI's, as it makes things more interesting.

Here are some notes about the "upside down" ADI (artificial horizon) from a 1953 Mig-17 restauration.

"Look even closer at the attitude indicator...see anything wrong? This is the correct orientation brown on the top, blue on the bottom. Apparently the Russians hadn't figured out how to gear their gyros for proper indication that you would see today on an attitude indicator. Think of it this way, you rotate around the gyro...if you lower the nose you go up into the brown. If you climb you go down into the blue. Flying with one of these gyros takes some getting used to. I can't imagine being in the clouds with a case of vertigo."

He even reports his 1953 Mig-17 still using the round gunsight reticule instead of the USA six diamond one.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...%3Doff%26sa%3DN

Ya, that does look good. You'd never know it came from A-4.

 

ordway, if the early MiG ADI seems confusing, do you recall the ADI used in early Ussian birds like F-84 and stuff? Early F-100s had the old style, but later got the modern style we are used to seeing.

Thanks for the input everyone. I am exhausted by this project.

So Lexx, do you mean the World War 2 type of ADI that was in the earlier American jet birds? I too am concerned that I want to do a realistic Mig-15 ADI version...but I just don't know how the poor non-pilot/non expert player can fly it. I am thinking of issuing a "regular" ADI version of the Mig-15 too. Any inputs?

Blackbird,

 

Stand by.

 

A complete F.M. update will be issued in a few days for F-86 Sabre/ MiG-15 models.

 

Tailored for use in W.O.I.

 

A whole new standard in ACM and aircraft preformance.

Latest Mig-15/Mig-17 cockpit update for it!...taking streakeagle's suggestions....Much more moving instruments around, adding instruments and taking others away according to photos.

Added oxygen flow meter, Amps /Volts Indicator, Russian specific EGT Indicator, Russian specific engine fuel flow indicator, added gunsight cables.

Almost every instrument has repainted features compared to last week's version.

[[Rowe says Soviet flight instructors reminded them to fly 1000 km/hr in a combat zone. At an air temperature of 60 degrees Fahrenheit, 1000 km/hr would translate into only .82 Mach.

Rowe says, "That's not fast. ]]

Yikes, I hadn't seen that before and good job on simulating it! ...and good jop on finding that. No Kum-Sok (Ken Rowe) in "A Mig-15 to Freedom" also states that he was instructed to enter the combat zone at "Mach .9." However he admits that the Mach meter was probably very inaccurate.

"Mach .95 was the fastest my fighter (Mig-15) could go." But again with his inaccurate Mach meter, it could have been much slower."

He also states that he went to Mach .95 in extemely steep dives...however the same inaccurate Mach meter statement stands of course.

What a great cockpit! I can't wait!

The ADI is inverted. Today I got it confirmed by a former MiG-17 pilot to be sure. The ball always stays level with the horizon, so when you pitch up, you see more of its bottom (blue) and when you pitch down more of the top (brown) side is revealed. You should be able to replicate this with the .ini lines I've posted before. The strange thing is that modern russian ADI design is completely different. Here is a better pic of AGI-1(АГИ-1) ADI used on MiG-17 and some of the late MiG-15s.]

 

 

Here is the updated Mig-15 HSI thanks to your beautiful picture....thanks!

 

 

Note that it has rivets on the actual blue and brown ball like your photo! It also has the different " fluorescent white and brown/white-toned colors" for the numbering as well as the lettered markings for 30 degrees and 60 degrees on the bottom now.

Blackbird,

 

Stand by.

 

A complete F.M. update will be issued in a few days for F-86 Sabre/ MiG-15 models.

 

Tailored for use in W.O.I.

 

A whole new standard in ACM and aircraft preformance.

 

"It's So SWEET!!!!!!!"

 

Taz,

 

I can hardly wait!!!!

 

One little issue, (and it might just be me) with the current Mig-15Bis User Mod model in WOI (which models the Mig-15's true quirks brilliantly!!!!!). I had a Meteor F-8 several times outrun me at sea level in WOI, because the Mig-15 would uncommandedly pitch up (which is what some would actually do-great!!!!) in level flight (mach .86?)and by the time I controlled it, the F-8 was way ahead and pulling sharply away and I would have to regain gobbles of speed and then it would happen again...so in effect, it seemed to me that the Meteor F-8 was effectively faster at sea level.

 

Is this the way you designed it (for this speed)?...and maybe this is fine because the player has to keep it at Mach .85 by playing with the throttle and speed brake?

 

Now if this is indeed designed this way, I would think that the F-86E (at least) would be massively faster at SL because it can go to the Mach .9 region at SL in straight and level. I know that the F-86s were in general better low-level performers compared to the Mig-15Bis which were much better at higher altitudes.

Was fighting with the F2 Gun Val sabre against mig-17 and I outclassed it. Is the current mig17 FM so bad?!

You definitely mean the later Mig-17 and not the Mig-15, right? From what I understand, the later Mig-17 literally did outclass (or close to it) the F-86. The Mig-17 was definitely close to being a generation later than most F-86 Sabres...much more power and speed.

Sweet photos!!!!!!!!

 

Now armed with the proper information, Ordway can really go to work!!!!!!!!!

 

Can't wait!!!!!!!!!

 

Maybe MiGs will become something more than targets for my Sabre!!!!!

 

LOL!!!!!!

 

 

 

It seems to me that both of the current Mig-15 flight models are valid- Paskos's, Column 5's Mig 15 for the mig-15bis (or close) and USAFMTL and Your Taz's Mig-15 according to No Kum-Sok's reports. One acts as almost the poster child for a perfect flying Mig-15Bis and the other acts (but is fun to fly) as the most tempermental one that No Kum-Sok ever flew! Ie. in my opinion, these two flight models cover the entire possible spectrum...which is truly fantastic!

No Kum-Sok states that some Mig-15s he flew had no really nasty problems at high speeds (they basically only got stiff)...and others were known and avoided as dogs at high speeds. He stated that his Mig-15 that was flight tested by the USAF, Chuck Yeager et. al was not his usual mount and was in fact one of the less pleasant, tempermental Mig-15s to fly.

No Kum-Sok stated that the reason he thought many (most early Mig-15s) were so unruly at high speeds is that the level of precision was very weak in production and some wings and fuselage sections were not symmetrical to their mated halves, were off angled and the plane wanted to fly a little weird anyway at low speeds...but at high speeds, of course, these angle and drag differences were strongly exacerbated

...ie. especially in the transonic regime or some high attack angles, if I understand correctly and then you got your extra-nasty stalls, spins, uncommanded pitch ups, and yaw freezings at lower speeds and/or angles of attacks

compared to other more symmetrical Mig-15s.

He stated that his Mig-15s were built with comparatively low quality standards (at least in the former Soviet Union)...but built as quickly as possible to make high production quotas.

Here's the iron gunsight, the only crosshair the manual seems to talk about is this one

 

 

I think Tazkiller is right about the crosshair being from the camera

Great job Paladrian! You found the iron crosshair!

That makes my job easier so that I don't have to put one in the optical sight. Now..about that mirror!....

Most cockpits I have flown in have the landing lights switch right above or near the landing gear lever. This is so you can find the switches by feel. This could be one of the switches you have indicated.

Thanks Jug, you might be on to something there!

Richard

SP5 scope?

 

Found another design...

Might this be it?

"The modification featured a peculiar gun camera mounting on top of the canopy in what looked like a slightly oversized rear-view mirror housing, with the camera taking pictures through the gunsight using a mirror arrangement. The Izumrud radar was also fitted to three MiG-15UTI trainers, which were given the designation of "MiG-15UTIP". The Izumrud would not be fitted to any production MiG-15 fighters, but it would become a popular fit for the next generation of MiG fighters. Interestingly, in 1952 a MiG-15bis was fitted with a complete copy of the US AN/APG-30 radar gunsight used by the F-86, with the copy designated the "SRD-3 Grad (Hail)". The Izumrud radar turned out to be the better bet."

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.a...d=42&bg=837

Ordway,

 

What is represented here is post combat gun footage that has been modified in the lab to give refrence.

 

Nothing more.

 

It did not and does not represent footage from the cockpit.

 

Problem with this sim is just because u can do it does not mean it is; or was ever real.

Hmmm Taz,

However there is more!

No Kum-Sok also states*:

"The optical image (of six diamonds) would dissappear as we move in on the target. Then we had to rely on a simple cross-hair sight."

Now, not in one single photograph of the sight area (out of maybe 40 including Korean war era film footage US and Soviet), do I see the P-40-type iron crosshairs. So I suppose, it might be optical cross hairs like the Mig-21 sight supposedly had in its gunsight.

I want to model these optical crosshairs if they existed. So I need the Mig-15 manual to explain this to me.

*"Mig-15 to Freedom" No Kum-Sok. McFarland. pp. 101-102

Thats from the camera. A long way from the gunsight.

 

Please this is getting silly!!

Well just remember that the Mig-21 cockpit gunsight that was done here at combat ace did indeed have fixed crosshairs and a moving reticle. So they got that from somewhere.

Yep, it is correct , and I would get dizzy too

 

If anyone is interested in the complete manual just let me know

Does your manual have anything about those crosshairs in those pictures above. I have lots more Mig-15 gunsight photos with those crosshairs.

Now the next shows the plane taking off on the left page. The aspect of the ADI is taken at the top of the maneuver, with the plane at zero elevation and left bank, it is consistent with the claim that it appears fixed with the rest of the world

 

 

and for comparison, here are at least two reported Mig-15 (Fagot-A?) (Yawn, fagot does not mean what you think it means... it was a real name for a bundle of sticks of firewood and and the NATO name for the Mig-15) reticules with F-86s supposedly getting whacked. Note these reticules are the round British-made-in Poland types.

(and double yawn, "fagged out" does not mean what you think it means...it means tired out or bedraggled).

Yep, it is correct , and I would get dizzy too

 

If anyone is interested in the complete manual just let me know

Thanks, I need to know what that lower left toggle switch is for (the style varies for different references I have). I know the upper left one is the spoilers (Correct?) according to a FS reference I have.

Yep, it is correct , and I would get dizzy too

 

If anyone is interested in the complete manual just let me know

Hmmm, so in Viper's pic earlier in this post (Mig-Alley I believe), the Mig-15 is diving and the HSI is showing blue I believe. In mine, I am climbing and it is showing blue... in the HSI. So which one is right, right or right?

Now the next shows the plane taking off on the left page. The aspect of the ADI is taken at the top of the maneuver, with the plane at zero elevation and left bank, it is consistent with the claim that it appears fixed with the rest of the world

Okay, is this what we are talking about (Look at HSI)? Let's hear some feedback please. I am getting dizzy.

Thanks.

Edit: I fixed the ball slip indicator on the HSI and added the "Спуск" at the top and "Подьем" at the bottom

. Secondly, I added an earlier gunsight reticule which is a round British-style circle with a dot in the middle...but I think both would be correct. No Kum-Sok mentions a US style six diamond reticule in at least some of the Mig-15Bis' he flew.

I also just dimmed the sight reticule to make it more pale like a light and less yellow.

Here you have 2 images from the manual that show the 2 sections of the ADI, with "Спуск" at the top and "Подьем" at the bottom

 

If you don't know russian like me, then they are probably not conclusive, but at least you can compare with the one in the photos and conclude they are the same instrument. The picture that convinced me is the following, that shows the airplane climbing

 

 

Having only 2 choices, the label clearly reads "Подьем" in the ADI, so it must have moved to the bottom section as I claimed

 

Perhaps one of our russian speaking friends can translate these portions of the manual for us

Yeha! thanks! Please, Russian speakers can you translate this for us? In particular we need to know that if when you dive the airplane, does the little airplane symbol appear to climb above the horizon line more and more on the instrument and the more you dive, the more the little airplane symbol appears to climb higher above the horizon line (white line in the middle)?

Thanks.

Well there is a wealth of information aviable both hard copy and internet on the MiG.

 

Easiest visual proof.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3a6_1175505466

Sweet, look at that gunsight reticle (early British copy manufactured in Poland I believe) that had the British round circle with the dot in the middle. Yeppur. I don't see any rearview mirror like No Kum-Sok said in the three documentaries shown.

The MiG-15 of the Korean War era never had a MIRROR!!!!!!

 

PERIOD!!!!!!!

 

All photos that feature a Mirror are Western adaptation.

 

It's just that simple!!!

I hate to bring up the mirror thingie Taz...but evidence please How do you know that?