bortdafarm

i was wondering about that myself...only in reverse..there was in fact a version of the fokker d7 with three wings (a triplane) and i wondered if it was feasible to get the game to place a copy of the bottom wing at about cockpit height which would be just about passable for an AI aircraft...they would have been as rare as hens teeth (they were experimental i think) but one squadron of them might be nice..how often do we see SE5a' when not flying them...

i am just going to have to ignore you aren't I

yes on the armour i just did a perfunctory job on it for testing...plenty to mess about with!! me too..i usually go for the deflection shot in a turning fight..fire slightly ahead of him and let him fly into the bullets and hope the guns don't jam...wish we could teach the AI that one...ya can't miss..! as some one mentioned (can't remeber who sorry)one of the most challenging ways to play the campaign is to fly the albatros..i just downloaded the excellent cockpit here in the DL section (brilliant stuff) so i thought i'd suss how to enable the albatros...that and Jokers excellent new campaigns ..which let you fly the albatros from Jasta 60 etc....he he!! second patrol was a recon over a some destroyed buildings (very nice touch that Joker!!! some thing to recon!) we got bounced by i don't know how many spads....lost the squad..but all landed on friendly turf so the were ok and i imagine got lifts home as they were ok on the roster board (one wounded) at the start on the next mission..(i hope that's at least in part due to the armoured pilot and engine mod..???anyway ) i ended up trying to get a spad...managed one..but then another wing of them turned up (or the original one had left and come back again lol!).and it was no good at all can't out turn or out run the spad in the Alb'..can out climb it if you've got a head start but not on equal terms.. so i headed for home at tree top level (an old red baron trick lol) the AI is allways a little bit cautiuos about firing on you if your at tree top hieght....headed for some obs balloons (or in red baron valence..observation bal-----ooooons!) and they opened up with flak on the spads. three of them ...but they persisted so i just landed in a field and got a lift home like the rest of the squadron...damn sensible chaps... yep the Alb' is the way to go for decent dog-fights against the AI... if the AI keep surviving the way they have done (haven't lost a pilot yet and they have beeen out numbered two to one each time in some serious scraps) then things might be going in the right direction....

the funny thing about the damage model for the aircraft is the the fokkerd7f and Spad have a different system for modelling the engine damage than the others... the se5a, fokkerd7 and the albatros have a seperate NOSE section modelled which when destroyed takes the engine with it....the spad and D7 have the engine linked to the fueselage...which means in the very quickly made test version i had to add the armour to the fuselage section for these two...look in the se5a D7and albatros and you'l see that i was able to armour the engine as a unique and seperate unit..and gave it steel armour beacause it only affected the engine...nothing else is linked to the nose...but had to give wood armour to the d7f and spad because a whole lot of other systems are linked to the fueselage along with the engine so it had to toned down a little to compensate...i did make a quick attempt at shifting the engine out of the fuselage section and placing it else where but it resulted in a dead engine at mission start up..so decide for the sake of a test it was easier just to try the thing out with the entire fuselage given a basic wood armour there's probably a more sophisticated way to do it but i didn't have the time to go thru a full test of all the possible connentations especaily when it was just a test of a basic concept. you'll notice that the armour is not total HasArmor=TRUE ArmorMaterial=WOOD ArmorFRONT.Thickness=36 ArmorREAR.Thickness=36 ArmorLEFT.Thickness=36 ArmorRIGHT.Thickness=36 (brackets removed ) there is no armour assigned to the top or the bottom so a deflection shot from above or underneath should not meet with any greater resistance than stock same with the steel armour on the seperate nose section of the se5a D7 and albatros this IMO is avery interesting feature of the armour system that could be exploited to create some very dynamic and complex armour and damage set ups for the aircraft..meaning shots from different angle would do more damage than shots from other angles..which on a canvas covered ww1 plane might be used to model the fact that a heck of a lot of bullets will pass straight thru the canvas and do no more lethal damage than to rip small holes...the actual amount of structure in a ww1 wing is probably only 10 percent of the total area (i've built a few flying models of ww1 aircraft using traditional building techniques and it's pretty much just spars and wing ribs..with large areas of nothing imbetween the whole thing being held together and given it's structural strength and areodynamic capabilites by the heavily doped canvas covering ) so i can see that a very dynamic damage model could be worked up for them (as long as these entrys for the armour are working as implied by the entrys and are apllicable to the aircraft (rather than just the ground objects )

it's a H_U_N_C_H i don't have to explain hunchs...to any body....please for gawd's sake let's not get into one of those typicaly anal sim arguments...you know the ones....the one's which put people off and are completely barmy from top to toe...it's not that sort of thread ....hang on a minute your the moderator....stop it!!!

the answer to those questions are ---at the moment---"i have absolutely NO IDEA!!!" it's just a hunch.....but just as in the real world during WW1 just about EVERY trick in the book was tried to improve the real world situation for the aircraft and most of those would sound perfectly crazy and indeed LOOKED perfectly crazy.....BUT every single one of those attempts brought the situation one step closer to something that was use-full.....(strapping a hunk of metal on the propellor to deflect the bullets from a forward firing machine gun!!...now if someone suggested doing that in a sim there'd be crys of CHEAT and the poor guy would be driven from the place with a barrage of contempt etc ..we've all seen it done a hundred times ) for the time being i'm content to stick with my hunch....following just such a hunch got fully functioning changing weather with real world accurate weather reports both dynamic and editable working in Silent Hunter II...and yes i got the same story there.....so no i don't care any-more...it's a hunch it may come to something it may not it's not worth getting over exicited about..i'll let you know of course ..if anything GOOD comes out of it..i'll allso let you know if it does not...fair???) meantime you can take the mickey all you like... many thanks EZ glad to hear there's some spin off's from this stuff going one

yes i reckon your right..but the way things translate into games doesn't allways work out terribly well.. i've tried the armour for the pilot and engine approach and in effect it does create some use-full changes .. precisely for the reason mentioned... A) the AI pilots have a greater chance of survival (as a rule..the rest of the aircraft is just as vunerable as stock so it varys and is still dynamic..it's not a blanket effect) B)eye candy....as a result of (A) you see far more aircraft with wingtips missing and other obviuos damge to the aircraft...good for the visual aspect of the game as well... C) far fewer aircraft left on the ground as a result of engine failure/damage alone. D) the player as a rule ---see (A) again-- finds it more difficult to get kills...or at the very least he needs to expend more ammo for each....tho most players will simply adapt and go for the tail and wings rather than the fuselage...but he will need to get closer to pick his target area E)the AI still seem to be able to get the normal amount of kills ..because they don't tend to get so many pilot/engine kills aas the player to begin with AND the longer they stay alive the more chance they have of finding an ideal (and allready damaged target... ) F)fewer instant deaths for the player... it's worth considering as one possible route.. anyhuw here's the files (yes they go into the aircraft folder he he!!) fepienarm.zip

perhaps the trick here would be to modify the HUd and INFO boxes to enable some sort of mid ground between no aids at all and the slightly over done arrow pointing at the enemy and ident box surrounding it..in combat perhaps changing ALL the boxes and arrows to the same colour would makes life more difficult with-out rendering the player subject to severely to the restricted view system that all flight sims are stuck with.. especaily if your still using the stock set up..(i don't use the rear view "check six" fix etc) personaly i'd LOVE to see the pilot animations include a "point" animation (he does look at the target but only if you lock it first) so if he actualy pointed at an enemy aircraft when he first see's it (using the closest enemy option) then you could enjoy the external view whilst flying along and be alerted to an enemy by your own pilots animation!! that would be for me a HUGE feature!! would make such a differnce to the immersion and do the same job as all the aids but in such a nice way..he could point at the nearest frindly or members of your squadron if you get seperated..and at the primary for reference...it wouldn't be exact but i don't think we really want it to be exact...have to leave some room for the un expected..far nicer and in keeping with the nature of the sim/game he could point at the enemy (as we have seen them do in countless movies) and then look at the camera as if to say "eh up bud ...wake up will ya!! your gonna get me killed!" another possibility might be to disable the pilot kill and engine kill for the player and the player squadron..this would only work for the Se5a really as only one other squadron uses the type other than the player.. but i would say that around 50% of the players squadrons AI pilot deaths come from pilot kills and engine kills forcing them down behind enemy lines..(POW) (MIA) etc... [Nose] ParentComponentName=Fuselage ModelNodeName=Nose DestroyedNodeName= ShowFromCockpit=TRUE DetachWhenDestroyed=FALSE HasAeroCoefficients=FALSE MinExtentPosition=-0.37,-0.04,-0.53 MaxExtentPosition= 0.37, 1.65, 0.60 CollisionPoint[001]= 0.00, 1.68, 0.00 DamageRating=DESTROYED SystemName[001]=Engine // Crew --------------------------------------------------------- [Pilot] SystemType=PILOT_COCKPIT PilotModelName=WWIpilot PilotHeadNodeName=head Position=0.0,-1.14,0.73 MinExtentPosition=-0.27,-1.49,-0.29 MaxExtentPosition= 0.27,-0.45, 0.84 adding armour to the pilot (?) and removing the SystemName[001]=Engine from the nose (perhaps replacing it with something else or leaving it empty) would reduce the casualty rate for the AI it would even if applied to all the aircraft reduce slightly the kill rate for the player....as i (at least) get most of my tally from pilot deaths and engine kills) dunno about any-one else? i'll try it see if it pans out

can't disagree with the fact that placing the "data inis in the aircraft's folder works can't agree with the assumption that placing the "data inis in the object folder does not work why? because the stock information is stored in a cat file in exactly the same folder... and because i'm having a "modders" hunch fun or what!!! whilst it's perfectly obviuos from trying that most changes made to an "data ini in the root folder does nothing i'm not comvinced that all changes made to an individual aircraft ini in the root folder do nothing at all there's something subtle going on with the game , as other data inis work perfectly when left in the root folder i'm betting that certain sections of the inis are read from different locations...placing it in the root folder may allow some additional information to be added to the ini which would not be read or read differently if the ini was located in the aircraft folders...not saying i'm right about this..it's just that i have had this with other games and ...against all eveidence to the contrary i'm usualy right!! (gulp) anyhuw dun wanna get into one of those "sim" like technocratic issues as were still fishing for answers and trying to get a feel for the game for most edits yup the ini has to go in the aircraft's folder

ahem....i disagree....but not entirely

yes i had reasonable results by vastly reducing the accuracy of the guns for the Ai (gundata ini) from what you say that bears out.. here's part of the catch 22 and "hidden" element of the campaign engine and the way it handles the AI pilots .. if you go into the campaign dta file and increase the experience for just the player squadron say RAF1 (as i gave an example of above for experimenting with)....you get high stats on the roster board...but what actually happens is that the game gives all the AI pilots the same level of stats (it levels them up so to speak) if you exit that campaign and start a freh one in a different squadron even tho that squadron has the stock level of experience set in the campaign data ini..you find that THAT squadron has the increased stats aswell.. regardlesss of what changes you make the campaign often simply changes ALL the aircraft and AI pilots abilitys to suit...so roughly speaking there's not a vast amount that can really be done (in the short term) other than to change things- which once the novelty has worn off...are simply different not genuinely better... so far anyway..i have the odd thing or two work out well..i set up the Se5a's with aircraftObject AIDATA changes so it could easily evade an entire squadron of enemy ai...nothing ubered at all no enhancements to the aircraft what so ever..just AI pilot utilising the full extent of the envelope and doing consistent u-turns (allmost stall turns in a way) BUT here's that catch 22 again THIS change could not be applied to any other aircraft....familiar territory here so often found this in other sims...there's allways a catch 22...something you DO NOT wnt to apply to all the AI pilots = gets applied to all the AI pilots, where-as something you do want to be applied to all the AI pilots stubbornly refuses to follow the same rule...and so on...LOL at the end of the day tho the FE ai is as good as if not better than any other period sim...AFAIK certainly it is the equal of red baron etc..the Ai rarely got kills in that classic benchmark sim and the player knocked them out of the sky line ducks..it's the same old bug bear tho and it does get repetitive...same problems with better graphics... strange game this first eagles...dunno wether to laugh or cry !!! my instinct tells iwas right in the AIMODv1 up.loaded in the downloads section to state that the "aircraft"_data.inis should be installed into the ROOT objects folder...not the individual aircraft folders as is the norm'--- for example the edited WWICAMP1_DATA.ini with the enhanced experience stats actualy works when simply placed into the root flight folder (where the parent CAT file lives)....and so on..this is the method i will be returning to from now on..

yes i may take a look at Fubars file... the problem i have with the stock game , campaign play, is that with all the aids turned off and if i follow the mission briefing then i have yet to survive beyond three patrols... it's one of those contradictions of the game...on the one hand it's very easy to rack up a supernatural number of kills...but on the other the game can kill you in a split second...pilot kill fuel tank fire or flak direct hit.. with no visual aids the enemy can sneak up on you very quickly...it's so hard to spot them against the terrain (as is only natural) that i often (as in real life i have read) go from being in the middle of a mad dogfight with a sky full of planes to blam suddenly i can find one anywhere..i allways get seperated from my squadron and often fly from flak burst to flak burst figuring that they will be somewhere near by those !! with the aids off this is one seriuos hardcore campaign.. well beyond normal normal sim difficulty...when you take it as a whole rather than simply how easy it is to get the kills..it's furstrating becuase i can't stay alive long enough to gauge or enjoy the deeper dynamic aspects i just started a new campaign a couple of minutes ago....same thing... pilot kill by an enemy fighter that i just didn't see (untill it was too late) HUGELY realistic...they can fly right past you (especailly the albatros) and you can't see them against the ground texture..next thing you know he's right on top of you or the most common surprise is that you think that there is only one of them....and maneuver to get on his tail ..not realising that there's two of them and you lost sight of number one in a turn and are now attacking number two..mean-while number one has gotten behind you and blam your dead...it's brilliant but makes appreciating the over-all campaign virtualy impossible..what a strange contradiction this sim is!! i still lose far too many squadron mates for my taste... lost all three on this patrol...kinda want that dynamic RPG element to work

I agree.. each time i return the game entirely back to stock the results are usualy better than with any of the mods...wether this is entirely a random thing or what is the intrigueing thing..it's my experience with AI issues of an type in other sims that i have modded that at the end of the day there is very little that can be done with it other than to change it's behaviour slightly...improving it is dang near impossible as what ever you do there somehow seems to be a catch 22 clause involved...but you do learn a lot about a sim/game by making the attempt..and i just can't resist trying just one more thing etc.. just in case... LOL!!! there's some complex stuff going in in this game, far more than first meets the eye...that's for sure..hell of a campaign engine ...(for all my complaints) a superb thing of beauty wish more games/sims had such a dynamic campaign engine...most just don't bother...

i think it's an old habit from Red baron days that i can't seem to break....if i die i start a new campaign...no reflys at all...ever..it just doesn't feel right, mind you i have been testing stuff as i go along so that means i am paying more attention to my Squadron buddys than my six.. but even so i have tried a couple of straight campaigns in the se5a...and tho i am an experienced combat flight simmer, it (given no reflys) is the toughest campaign i have tried ..far tougher than Red Baron2/3d as i say i can shoot down the enemy planes by the bucket full, but something allways seems to get my fuel tank or a pilot shot if i fly the mission by the book...it's still great fun but if i take the refly option it's going to start feeling like i'm playing "Driver" i occasionaly get a recon mission.. and escort job i like the recon missions better as they just involve flying over an area to get a success rating (no primary targets) which with HUD off you have no way of knowing wether the aircraft or target your attack is the primary target or not.. other than a guess all a bit daft really to be honest

i am becoming slowly vaguely convinced that somehow any changes made to one aircraft or set of AI pilots actualy affects ALL the other aircraft and pilots in the game...the game compensates... i've tried quite a few campaign patrols now using this ACE SE5A squadron...and they got anihalated every time with no kills at all...why??? because the campaign sent ten enemy fighters after each and every one of the player squadrons AI pilots.... they were simply over whelmed.. allso one or two of the alterations to the fighter aircraft stats i've tried have resulted in the two seater aircraft not being able to get of the ground (beats me) or so it seemed...change em back and the two seaters are fine again...(with no changes made to the two seaters at all either way) as an experiment i slightly "ubered" the SE5A and left all other aircraft as stock (including the drag issue on the Fokkers) and strangely i found that the Fokkers were able to catch the SE5A's and even overtake them even tho they were travelling at over 100 knts.... it's a puzzle kinda makes some sort of sense from a gameplay point of view but it makes modding this aspect a very limited balancing trick rather than anything straight forward.. i wonder if the game recognises the skill rating of the AI pilots in your squadron and assigns more fighters to attack them the higher their stats are.. so in the end raising their stats has in fact the opposite effect than that desired...as Major DB noticed... more confusion i do hope we can get something sorted with this...especailly from campaign gameplay point of view..because IMO as it is (at least in traditional terms) the campaign is virtualy impossible to complete..if you lose too many pilots AFAIK you lose the campaign (have i got that right??) replacements don't seem to arrive at a rate that allows you to carry on even if you succesfully complete every mission ( i have yet to recieve any replacments at all to be honest) given the difficulty in keeping pilots alive especaily on the long haul patrols deep into enemy territory i am inclined to say that the campaign given the sim-lite tag is un-playable (in any normal sense of the word anyway) leave the squad at home and ffly by your self is probably the best chance of completing the campaign which is not fantastic.. i'll see if i can wake up the replacement pilot/aircraft side of the campaign to ensure a steady flow right from the start..??

nice one!!! get those rear gunners on the job!!! tell you what if the model makers fancy a nice plane for a similar angle on the game but still a fighter/dual role aircraft the Bristol fighter would be fantastic!!!!

i increased the experience rating for all the fighter squadrons..with an eye on making the AI harder for the player as well....not that really seemed to make them more difficult for the player to shoot down... tho you have give me an idea...what if i just increased the experience level for the players squadron?? then only your squadron mates would have decent skill levels etc..all the rest would be as stock...that on paper might work..tho it would involve having a different mod for each of the possible squadron choices....not impossible i'll experiment with that and see how it pans out good idea? if you fancy trying it out just get the stock wwicamp1_data.ini and find the squadron you want to fly with set theri experince level to 100 and bobs your uncle.. as a quick experiment here's RAF1 squadron set to max ..all other squadrons friendly and enemy are as stock..might work...should work....but will it?? RAF1squadmod.zip

willdo...it's funny but that's one of the reasons i thought about doing it thru the forum..as i was working on version two of the mod then suddenly thought ..heck folks ull get right confused if there are too many versions in the officail downloads section.. version one has it's benifits and can stand on it's own two feet... i am making progress ...but getting the ball rolling is one thing .(AIMODv1)..getting it to the top of the hill is something else alltogether!! anyhuw it's usefull to have a forum to swop things about in the open as it were and it might attract the attention of more expert file modders eho may know a few tricks for this stuff Deutschmark!! many thanks for the encouragemnt...it looks like we have the all clear thanks to Tailspin to do a little bit of judicious experimental (small) file posting here at the excellent CA forum's, so all's well for some community experimentation

GunnerFireChance=100 GunnerFireTime=4.5 GunnerAimOffset=0.0050 the gunnerFiretime has me a bit confused as well!! is it a) the length of time it takes for the pilot to fire once he's got a bead on the target? or b) the length of time he will keep firing before he resets and trys again... or summat else? either way doesn't seem to make a hoot of differnce what you set it to... and why is the gunneraimoffset different to the other ace novice veteran etc aim angles?? if the AI can be persuaded to fire a decent long burst on each occasion then they will get more kills...(regardless of wether in real life WW1 guns might have jammed when used in such a wanton fashion) they can't be firing more than ten or fifteen bullets each time according to the stats at the debriefing screen and if only 30% hit then that's not going to do much short of a lucky pilot kill or fuel tank/engine hit... get them to fire 30 or 40 bullets at a time and not only will they get more kills (even if they occasionaly run out of ammo) they will be more dangerous to the player aswell.. there are burst length data entrys for the rear gunners on the two seaters.. but these don't have any noticable effect (at first glance ) when applied to the fighters? as another point reducing the pitch damper for the ai in the aircraftdata.inis does seem to give them a bit more abilty to line up their shots...but this is only a margiinal benifit as far as i can tell..

many thanks Indio.. but lets express a note of caution here (aimed at myself as much as anything lol) you know how these topics can sometimes get out of hand a little ... what i have done is to set up a small website to host the bits and bobs relating tho this project and a few other things as time go by... as my tastes in modding are often quite personal to myself and often don't satisfy other folks.. the variuos versions of the mod might serve to provide an alternative both to stock and to the other mods.. we all like ice cream but not every-one likes the same flavour to coin a phrase...that's my philosophy on modding...and that is why i allways provide as many versions of a mod as i make for myself regardless of wether they do the job pefectly or not...it is perhaps a trap to wait for a some sort of definitive mod that is a cure all...as it is allmost inevitable that tastes will differ on this...and that other un forseen issues may arise from using such a mod (any mod in fact) mistakes will be made...but that's part of the joy of computer gaming and FE is perfecty set so no harm can be done..delete the files and your sorted... here's the link to the site such as it is... Bort's funny little mod page ...

well i dunno what you call it but it doesn't sound like a suggestion to me.... do you want me to edit the AIMOD thread and remove the attachments or not? as you wish it of course...

it's amazing really given the investment in games and gaming generaly by the industry at large that nothing concrete has been done to improve AI at all...it doesn't matter wether it's PC monopoly, Quake..a flight sim or a shoot em up..dud AI results in a dud game...sooner or later folks lose interest.. the trouble with a WW1 combat flight sim is that the AI has got nowhere to hide...with more modern era sims they can rely on the use of longer range weapons and the better maneuverability given by the modelling of high top speeds etc etc..but with old kites like these it is ALL down to the AI pilots skills..which conversely is exactly why we all like this era of flight sim so much...seat of the pants all the way... even tho i'm complaining (and i AM complaining!!!) it has to said the FE AI is not that bad and is easily the best i've tried in a WW1 combat flight sim...but a few focused additions would have made all the difference... 1) an automatic and severe evasive maneuver when enemy aircraft is detected directly behind governed by range pilot experience novice expert ace etc.. 2) same thing again at the first bullet strike on the aircraft... 3)automatic "get the heck out of here" action when damaged beyond a set point (editable in a file perhaps) full throttle climb towards home (if the previous two actions haven't shaken the enemy) 4)as a rough cheat (if you like) for the AI-- a "zone" behind aircraft that "attracts" enemy fighters (exploited the same way that car racing games have a "catch up" cheat for the ai) again size of the zone editable in a small file just these (i'm assuming?) fairly old school AI tricks would create a far greater sense of purpose to the game..none of it i'm guessing requiring "next gen" game engines...AFAIK the rest can be taken care of with damage/armour/weapon edits.. this way at least the player gets a challenge and the AI trys it's damdest to get kills and avoid being killed...giving the game a real sense of purpose anyhuw... he he!! i can't say i've noticed any huge differnce in the AI when set on easy or hard... still reckon FE is the best WW1 sim available at the moment..(tho Red baron has the crown long term)

has to be the fact that the rear gunner can rotate their guns... i did decrease the sccuracy for the AAA guns in the gun data ini in the AIMOD thread (and in downloads here for the original version) that does seem to take the edge of them at least.... tell you what tho i just did a uniinstall and re-install to get a fresh plate to look at the stock game ... and the AI is better as stock IMO than it is with all my changes LOL!!! even saw a DVII do a loop...so all this editing of files stuff might be changing but not improving neccesarily?? all i used was the experience mod to get the AI pilots skill rates up a bit nothing else... i really think thats the key to all this in the end...those AI pilot stats get them up higher than normal and things should start to play better...in theory i can't find them anywhere tho...(other than the maxed out experience rating in the wwicamp1_data.ini) there's no file that gives you access to the way the stats are distributed to the pilots (i'm sure it must be randomly assigned etc) dang these games it's ALLWAYS the AI that lets them down every time..drives me mad..forget new graphic engines next gen effects et al...time for some next gen AI i reckon looong overdue