PraetorH

Naja, beim Patch ist noch mehr putt gegangen, das Cockpit macht auch Probleme. Sollte sich ebenfalls leicht reparieren lassen, aber große Lust habe ich z.Z. darauf nicht. Schöne Geschichte, nur zwei Punkte fallen mir als eher unwahrscheinlich auf: große Typenvielfalt war bei der Luftwaffe nicht erwünscht, das betraf auch Subtypen. Das hatte teils natürlich ökonomische Gründe, teils würde ich aber auch vermuten, die Erfahrungen des 2. WK spielten dieser Aversion zu. Hätte man die 104G auch in Jäger und Jabo getrennt, wären da zwei verschiedene Flugzeuge rausgekommen. Insofern wäre eine Multirole-Mirage-Version vermutlich besser. Die Zukunft ist das andere... Zugegeben, ist das schwierig zu bewerten, aber ein paar Dinge wären auch bei Mirage nicht anders geworden. Zum einen suchte man schon in den 70ern nach einem Starfighter-Nachfolger für die später 80er/frühen 90er. (Phantom wurde zwar der effektive Nachfolger in vielen Belangen, war so aber nicht geplant). Daraus ist irgendwann der EF geworden. Frankreich war da immer ein Klotz am Bein, nicht nur wegen unterschiedlicher technischer Anforderungen, sondern hauptsächlich wegen der überzogenen Forderung nach Dassault-Führung mitsamt 50%-Produktionsanteil – der Rest dürfte dann zwischen MBB, BAE und Aeritalia aufgeteilt werden. Da mit der Mirage III ähnliche Probleme wie mit F-104 zu erwarten waren, ist die Phantom in den 70ern vielleicht eine Option zur u.U. nötigen Ergänzung. Und die Mirage 2000 als Lückenfüller oder gar Nachfolger hat denselben Makel wie die F-104: nur ein Triebwerk. Wäre wahrscheinlich flach gefallen. Ehrlich gesagt, habe ich auch keine Idee wie es weitergehen könnte. Vielleicht Mirage 4000, vielleicht Rafale. Sicher ist nur, dass deutsche Bedürfnisse dabei auf jeden Fall sekundär gewesen wären und Dassault auf jeden Fall die Entwicklung dominiert hätte. Die Mirage 4000 finde ich persönlich überaus schön. Wäre auch mal interessant, eine englische Linie durchzuspielen, zuerst mit Hawker Hunter. Aber was danach kommt… Kann man eine Lightning zum Jabo machen? Ein schnelles Flugzeug war sie ja, aber leider auch potthässlich :D

Wo Du es gerade ansprichst: die Franzosen haben 1954 angeboten, die Erstausstattung der Bundeswehr zu liefern, ohne Vorbehalte. Es gab im November sogar eine Waffenschau eigens für Deutschland. Die Super Mystere war in das Angebot explizit eingeschlossen! Deutscherseits allerdings lehnte man ab, weil sich niemand vorstellen konnte, dass die französischen Waffensysteme ähnliche Leistungen wie die amerikanischen brachten. Darüberhinaus kam 1956 mit Strauß jemand ins BMVg, der für die Franzosen nicht viel übrig hatte. Die Entscheidung war natürlich ein Schuss in den Ofen, da die Amerikaner ihre neuste Hardware nicht mit Deutschland teilen wollten und man nicht mehr auf die Franzosen zugehen konnte, die spätestens mit DeGaulle auch ganz andere Wege gingen. Dumm gelaufen. Ich glaube aber nicht, dass man den Starfighter übersprungen hätte, eben weil die F-100 und auch die Super Mystere Ende der 50er gründlich überholt waren. Leute wie FJS hätten kaum bis Mitte der 60er gewartet, zumal das Geld seinerzeit kein größeres Problem für die Bundeswehr war (heutzutage kaum vorstellbar). Aber wie Gepard schon sagte, hätte sich die Lw besser auf den Starfighter vorbereiten können. Wenn ich ein Template zur Super Mystere finde, lässt sich da sicher was machen. Hawker Hunter hat Spinners mal für die Lw gemacht, allerdings nicht übermäßig akkurat: http://combatace.com/files/file/9229-hawker-hunter-f6-luftwaffe-for-sf2europe/ Die Mirage IIIG habe ich zwar noch, aber irgendeiner der Patches hat da einiges durcheinandergewirbelt. Effektiv nur noch ein skin-pack… Noch mal zur F-100: in den 70ern war sie natürlich nicht mehr als nuklearer Striker für die Franzosen im Dienst, aber das will nicht viel heißen, immerhin konnten nun verschiedene Mirages diese Rolle übernehmen. Es ist dagegen vielsagend, dass sie bis zur Mirage lieber der F-100 als der Super Mystere die Atomwaffen unterschnallten. Zuletzt tat die F-100 das, was sie am besten konnte, Luftnahunterstützung liefern. In dieser Rolle war die F-100 bis zuletzt wichtig, wurde nah an den zu erwartenden Krisenherden stationiert, am Ende in Dschibuti:

The F-100 in Luftwaffe colours is a not too unlikely what-if. What happened in reality: In 1955 West Germany re-armed and the Bundeswehr began active service, but it still lacked an air force. The new Luftwaffe however was about to be mustered. In October 1956 German officials planned 364 F-100 Super Sabres and 226 F-86K for the fighter wings, but were denied the F-100. Ironically just one year later the USAF realized the F-100 would rapidly age in the light of the coming Mach 2-generation of fighters and fighter-bombers. Large stocks of F-100 were given to the ANG, but also cleared for export. In 1957 the F-100D were offered to Germany. Unlike Denmark and France, Germany had no interest in the plane, since the Bundesministerium der Verteidigung (MoD) already wanted a Mach-2 jet. Erich Hartmann was one of the advocates for the F-100 as he felt the Luftwaffe, completely equipped with subsonic aircraft, was not yet ready for the Mach-2 age and should train on supersonic jets first. What if... the Luftwaffe had decided to buy some of the F-100D? In late 1958 two wings were given the new Super Sabres: JBG 33 and JG 72. The Fighter Bomber Wing 33 was responsible for the German part of the nuclear sharing, thus it was decided it should get the newest hardware to ensure maximum performance in nuclear bombing. By the same logic JBG 33 would receive the new Starfighters from late 1960 on. Fighter Wing 72 had just been activated and had a stronger focus on air to ground combat than other fighter wings. Therefore the fighter bomber F-100D was deemed well suited. The pilots initially loved the thrust and advanced systems, but they also underestimated how difficult it was to fly. More problems arose because the Luftwaffe infrastructure and logistics were not prepared for supersonic jets. To make matters worse, personnel shortage meant that maintenance was often done by inexperienced conscripts. Accident rates were horrifying, even alerting the German tabloid press. These events spurred reforms in the Luftwaffe which would come in handy when the new Starfighters came into service. With the arrival of the Starfighter in 1960, the Super Sabres of JBG 33 were gradually replaced until it operated exclusively with F-104 by 1963. The remaining F-100 were transferred to the Marinefliegergeschwader 2 (naval aviation wing), always last to receive new aircraft. MFG 2 would continue flying the Super Sabres until 1966. JG 72 meanwhile was officially converted to a fighter bomber wing, now named JBG 43. It focused on close air support and it seemed as if the days of the Super Sabre came to an end, when MoD officials announced its replacement: the Fiat G.91R. This light subsonic bomber was build just for the role of close air support. However the good performance of the Super Sabres in Vietnam convinced the Luftwaffe to keep them service. Also the pilots flying supersonic jets were not exactly thrilled to ‘downgrade’ and had little love for the Fiat. After all they wanted to keep their fighter role. In 1970 the F-100 was out-dated and updates were deemed too costly, and by 1971 JGB 43 was no more. It was reorganized to Light Bomber Wing LKG 43 flying G.91. Colours and Markings: 1958-1960 JBG 33 featured a rather discreet paint scheme with the typical all-silver and decent squadron markings at the nose. The squadron badges were updated from the old F-84 silhouette to the current F-100. JBG 33 Super Sabres were not painted in camouflage colours, because they were already being transferred to the navy. (The paintjob mirrors that of the F-84 of 1./JBG 33 before 1960) JG 72 by contrast sported most flamboyant squadron markings on nose and tail. Only JG 71 rivaled it in extravagancy. Since camouflage was not an issue and as it marked a decided turn away from Nazi military costumes, the Luftwaffe was ok with it. In fact, it matched well with the new Nato-allies. (The paintjob is mirrors that of the Canadair Sabres of 1./JG 72 “Viking” before 1960) 1961-1970 JG 72 retained their characteristic markings for a while even after camouflage was iussed, defeating the very purpose of camouflage. Luftwaffe commanders tolerated this for a while, but with the conversion to JBG 43, the markings were gone. The squadron badges were replaced by the wing badge. (The paintjob mirrors that of the Canadair Sabres of 1./JG 72 “Viking” after 1960) (The paintjob mirrors that of the Canadair Sabres of 1./JG 72 “Viking” after 1964) MFG 2 painted their F-100 in the standard naval aviation camouflage. Sadly, it was always very bland. Even wing badges were omitted before the mid-sixties. (This paintjob is an intermediate solution sporting the old naval badge and the new Marine-lettering. I do not think this combination ever existed, but then the F-100 is an intermediate solution that never existed) Historical notes on JBG 33, JG 72, MFG 2, and the Luftwaffe jump to Mach-2: JBG 33 was indeed always the first to receive new gear due to its nuclear mission, getting Starfighters as early 1960 while MFG 2 began to get them four years later. JG 72 was a pure fighter wing when it officially got the mission to perform daylight interceptions in 1962. However it was soon given the fighter bomber role in 1964 when it was reorganized as JBG 43, yet still equipped with their initial Canadair Sabres. Only in 1966 it got the Fiat G.91 and was soon redesignated LKG 43, for the G.91 could not perform as a fighter - much to the dismay of the pilots. The Starfighter suffered an extraordinary high accident rate, including over a hundred fatalities. But it should not be forgotten that the Luftwaffe and its personnel were not in the least prepared for modern aircraft. The Hun would have created similar problems for the Luftwaffe. Ugrades: If someone can think of technical reasonable upgrades for the late 60ies and early 70ies, please tell me. And finally: THANKS to hgbn, whose excellent templates I am using!

Thanks all! The Hun is a fond childhood memory because it was my first big model kit (the second being the F-106, and third the F-104 – Century Series all the way!). It was hard coming up with a halfway reasonable backstory, but I am glad you like it. Btw, the Euro-camo is m my attempt on the Luftwaffe 1960-camo which had no special name and served as forerunner to the more famous Norm 72 with its straight lines and more angular appearance. The Hun in camouflage looks more like a plane for serious business, imo. That is why I tried it, although it took me some time. Therefore, your compliments are much appreciated! Thanks so much. I will not have much time next weeks to tweak the plane but I will try to release it sooner or later (rather later; I must figure out what to include in the download as this Luftwaffe Hun probably makes some serious use of the NATO-fighters content). Maybe I can think of a good update programme, but I do not know enough about the Hun… If someone knows about proposed upgrade programmes, I am eager to learn about it. Within the story it would make some sense for the JBG 43 to skip the Fiat G.91 altogether and go directly for the Alpha Jet in the late 70ies. Furthermore, I am trying to complete two skins for the second squadron of JG 72, the Füchse (Foxes). Despite having a fox in their badge, they actually participated in the Tiger-Meets from 1962 on. Back then it was the only unit not to have a tiger in their badge – a fact to which they replied:

Die F-100 war eben noch die allererste Generation von Überschalljägern und alles andere als perfekt; die 104 war wesentlich pilotenfreundlicher. ...Wobei die Dänen am Anfang unter ähnlichen Problemen litten wie die Luftwaffe mit dem Starfighter, v.a. unzureichende Pilotenschulung und Personalmangel bei den Bodencrews. Die Presse hat sich auf die F-100 gestürzt und dieser schlechte Ruf blieb bis zum Ende, wie beim sogenannten Witwenmacher. Trotz einiger ziemlich mieser Eigenschaften hat sich die F-100 aber bei all ihren Nutzern im Kampfeinsatz bewiesen; Dänemark ausgenommen. Zuerst die Franzosen in Algerien, dann die Amis in Vietnam, zuletzt die Türken auf Zypern. Angeblich sollen sogar die (nationalen) Chinesen einige Rotchinesische MiGs abgeschossen haben. Die Franzosen waren von ihren F-100 völlig überzeugt und die Tatsache, dass sie noch 1975 versucht haben, die Lebensdauer dieser Maschinen zu erhöhen, spricht für sich. Ich glaube, sie hätten auch der Luftwaffe gute Dienste geleistet, wären sie nur wie gewünscht 1956 freigegeben und für die Gründung der Lw 1957 bereitgestellt worden. Aber am Ende der 50er noch von F-84 und 86 auf die Hun zu wechseln, um dann Anfang der 60er auf Starfighter umzustellen, wäre reichlich sinnlos gewesen. Deswegen hat es die Luftwaffe auch nicht gemacht. Übrigens, die MiG-19 hatte trotz ihres zweiten Triebwerks auch keinen besonders guten Ruf und tatsächlich verdammt ohne Absturzzahlen. Es scheint, als wären die ersten Überschalljäger generell noch sehr unausgereift gewesen, in fast jeder Beziehung.

Lustig: Als die (neue) Luftwaffe geplant wurde, wollte man u.a. 364 F-100D Super Sabres, aber die USA verweigerten den Export. Laut Wikipedia boten sie sie aber nur ein Jahr später der Luftwaffe an, die allerdings schon kein Interesse mehr hatte! Kann jemand verifizieren, ob es wirklich dieses Angebot durch die USA gab? Mir scheint es gut möglich, immerhin wurden dieser Zeit die F-100D auch an andere NATO-Länder abgegeben. Interessant, wie schnell Flugzeuge in den 50ern alterten...

Hm, you'll have to tell us more if we are to understand the teaser. ;) Well, at least I am not perfectly familiar with Finish history...

Cool, sag einfach mal Bescheid, wenn Du da bist!

Sehr schön!

I also had to think on these two when reading the thread title! Funny enough, they look alike but have vastly different mission profiles, equipment and flying characteristics.

Bei mir liegt es eher an einer Kombination aus "real life" und mangelndem neuen Inhalt, der mich interessiert. Tomcat is mir zu modern, NA interessiert mich nicht. Mir liegen die 50er und 60er am Herzen und wenn jemand mal die Abfangprozedere dieser Zeit (Ost wie West) realistisch simulieren würde wollen (F-106 mit automatischer SAGE-Leitung und daran gekoppeltes Feuerleitsystem z.B.) - dann wäre ich Feuer und Flamme. Allerdings ist dieser Wunsch nicht gerade massenkompatibel. Ansonsten hoffe ich ja, dass der Starfighter mal eine Generalüberholung bekommt. Das wiederum müsste aber mehr Leute als nur mich interesseiren, immerhin flog fast jedes westliche Land (=Absatzmarkt) die ein oder andere Version der F-104.

Hi Forum, I am currently thinking about a German upgrade program for the Mirage III, assuming the Luftwaffe had chosen the Mirage III instead of the Starfighter. So rather than entirely replacing the Mirage (like the Starfighter), it is to be upgraded in the mid/late 70s. What would these upgrades be? I am contemplating: RWR system and countermeasures. Easy to be done Mauser BK 27 replacing the DEFA. Equally easy, but is it possible or is the Mauser too large? New engine: J79 has been proven to be possible by the IAI, but what about RR Avon (like the Draken), the Volvo RM8 (Viggen), or an upgraded Atar? New radar: I am not sure about it, but do you have any ideas? regards

Thank you very much! I had not expected the UN one to be so popular. So I post some more pics. I actually thought about a Canadian one. Can you point me to a good possible paintscheme? Same here, is there a good possible paintscheme? I do not have time these days, but next weekend maybe.

There can never be enough Tomcats I must say I like it very much, I have just one minor point of critic: the service notes and warnings are in low-vis, so I think the national roundel should also be subdued. Or you could colour the service notes and warnings, which is what I would do. However you should stick to the what the Spanish forces in real life do or did, not to what I like regards

Would be sensible but out of my possibilities, as I cannot model in 3D.

Da musst du PGC fragen... Ich modde nur dessen Mirage ein wenig. So langsam müsste die Betatestphase aber abgeschlossen sein, ich denke nur, dass er keine große Lust hat, dran zu arbeiten.

Hello, as I wrote already, I paused my Mirage IIIG (77) project for a little while to restart freshly. Meanwhile I made this is fictional fun story about a German participation in SAC, so do not expect too much, even though bits and bytes are factual as you can read in the notes. But pics first: (cookie for the first who guesses the girl in the pic ) The German Search for a Long Range Bomber In the later 50ies, the German government in its desire for nuclear weapons was pressing hard for more active role in the NATO strikes. Especially the secretary of defense, Franz Josef Strauss, looked for an aircraft that could reach any target between Rhine and Volga …and nuke it. (1). In 1960 Eisenhower, still trusting in Massive Retaliation and the deterrence it offered, believed German long range bombers over Moscow with nuclear ordnance a very deterring thought for the Soviets. So he agreed, but Germany had a price to pay. The new bomber wing was to be under SAC control and even outside Luftwaffe chain of command if the SAC required so. This was regarded as a small price on the way to nuclear power and a good opportunity to learn (2). Enter the A-5G Strauss rushed ahead and requested the B-58 Hustler, however both US and German Air Force officials pointed out that the Luftwaffe had neither experience with heavy bombers nor supersonic aircraft, much less support capability (3). A smaller two-engined bomber was deemed more suitable, as the German airfield were closer to the main targets anyway. Top-requirements were speed and survivability in face of the massive SAM line throughout Middle Europe. It was anticipated that a small group of fast bombers could break through that line during the chaos of the first air battles. At that time, the US Navy was coincidentally phasing out the A-5A due to a shift in nuclear policy which emphasized missiles launched by submarines. North American realized the A-5 would be relegated to reconnaissance service only in the Navy (4), and offered a somewhat downgraded A-5A with simplified avionic systems. The navigation system for example was replaced by the LN3 Litton, which was also used on Luftwaffe new standard aircraft, the F-104G. Likewise, the engines were J79 G-11A. While providing slightly less thrust they were used on the F-104G as well. The most radical modification was the addition of Sidewinder launch rails, although it was not sure how exactly they would be used in a war. Some advocated splitting the flight in a main bomber section and an escort section, while others favoured them for self defense during the return. Ultimately it had little operational use and was more of a comfort for the pilots, assuring them there would be a return (5). The combat radius of the Vigilante would allow bombing even Moscow from Munich and fly back - in theory. Strategisches Kampfgeschwader 11 Aptly, the new unit equipped with A-5G bombers was called Strategisches Kampfgeschwader 11 (Strategic Bomber Wing). Pilots who had shown the greatest stress resistance were handpicked from the fighter bomber wings. Oberstleutnant Hanns Heise became the unit’s commander because he had commanded KG 40, one of Germany’s few long range bomber wings in WWII, then flying Fw-200 and He-177 (6). Soon StratKG 11 took up this legacy donning their aircraft with the orbited earth of KG 40, but since they were operating under SAC command, they not only added the SAC stripe to their aircrafts’ noses but also set the orbited earth against a stripe of stars in dark night, illustrating their commitment to SAC. Like the British V-bombers the German Vigilantes were painted with an anti-flash white wraparound to reflect some of the thermal radiation of a nuclear explosion. And like the British they forgot to pale their insignia at first... (1) This is actually true but often forgotten. The Starfighter was chosen for the Luftwaffe due to its excellent low lever strike capabilities. (2) Eisenhower indeed did, but he would never have allowed German strategic bombers, nor had anyone else done. The Soviet Union was angry enough about nuclear sharing and even threatened Kennedy with war should Germany get any more involved. The German public on the other hand did not know much about nuclear sharing and considered the Starfighter an interceptor first. Moreover the Luftwaffe itself had never intended to wage strategic air war, leaving that role to SAC. (3) Germany had massive problems operating Starfighters for various reasons including pilot training, maintenance and shortage of manpower. The Luftwaffe simply could not handle a Mach-2 aircraft in the early 60ies. A monster like the Hustler was absolutely inadequate. However, so would have been the A-5! (4) This is what happened… (5) Morale was a problem for the fighter bomber pilots assigned to units with nuclear sharing, especially early on. This combined with the rather inexperienced Luftwaffe might explain the wish for Sidewinders. Of course, I just wanted something to shoot with ;) (6) The name of the unit follows Bundeswehr regulations and the numbers from 11 to 29 were not used for any wing. Heise later became the commander of the German forces in the US. Luftwaffe units using old Luftwaffe insignia was actually quite frequent. regards PS: thanks to Julhelm, his A-5 and his template!

Cool one. Does Spain really consider buying Russian birds? You do not have a USN Flanker by chance? I have seen some schemes of the Su-27 in USN colours and it looked disturbingly great!

For those who do not watch the what-ifs regularly, my international Tomcats

Thanks mates! Actually the scheme is more fictional than what-if. The real UN-Mission schemes are much plainer, all white, big black UN, reduced national and squadron insignia. At least it was like that at my airbase with C-160s. The UNMIL Hinds in Liberia do not don any national or squadron insignia. Not even the UN-Mission name is on it! http://www.unmultimedia.org/photo/detail.jsp?id=200/200146&key=0&query=MI-24%20&lang=en&sf= I just liked the idea of toying around with UN planes engaging the air forces of Greece and Turkey, especially their Phantoms... On an another ironic note, an old screenshot:

UN in Cyprus got some claws and fangs Btw, it is surpringly well working camo in high altitude combat...

Cool one! Will try it out next weekend. Cheers

VERY cool models, I love the Canadian one. I am afraid your plans would require rather substantial changes on the current model of the TSR.2; canopy, canards, new intakes, internal chin gun, and even a new cockpit. It is a nice idea, but a lot of work, maybe you find a 3D-modeller. By the way, this Japanese one looks like it could be done without changes in the model.

I think that is the boring part of it... There is nothing like an AIM-9B kill.

Cool! As we have so many Phantoms... my last, rather suicidal mission. Busting a random oil tank is not a good idea when flying alone because ... ... the locals may not like that and they are in larger number. I got one... ... but the other three were all over me.