PraetorH

Hello! This a nice project, but I feel this could be even better! What about western weapons or Indian style upgrades? And a more country specific camo would be nice. I know the Mexicans were not terribly imaginative with their camos, but since this is a what-if... :)

Tigershark war schon interessant, zumal man die Luftwaffe von 1982 nicht mehr mit der von 1958 verwechseln darf. Eine Krise wie damals mit dem Starfighter ist aufgrund vieler Umstände nicht anzunehmen. Die Luftwaffe hatte viel aus ihren zahlreichen Fehlern gelernt, war und ist in Sachen Sicherheit eher etwas überpenibel (siehe 2-Triebwerke-Regel). Wenn man mal das ganze politische Drumherum weglässt, hätte die F-20 in den 80ern gut zur Luftwaffe gepasst. Die F-20 hatte BVR-Fähigkeiten, Luft-Boden-Lenkwaffen und gute Flugleistungen. Vor allem schnellen Starts haben die Piloten beeindruckt und wenn der Feind so schnell vorrücken kann, wie der Warschauer Pakt, dann ist das eine wichtige Fähigkeit. Als Jabo eingesetzt, hätte man Gina ersetzen, Alpha Jet ignorieren und Phantom ergänzen, wenn nicht auch ersetzen können. Eigentlich ein guter Lückenbüßer bis zum Eurofighter.

Not a What-If, it was a real testflight: But of course, a What-If is due...

Ich werde mich am Wochenende mal mit einer Geschichte befassen, die hierauf aufbaut: Man testete die F-20 Anfang der 80er zusammen mit F-15 und F-18, um einen Vergleich zum TKF 90 zu bekommen. Der Tigershark, hier in einer von Northrop für die Testpiloten extra markierten Maschine, schnitt ziemlich gut ab. Ich überlege, ob ich sie der Luftwaffe als Alpha Jet-Ersatz gebe. Der Alpha Jet ist zwar süß, aber mehr ein Trainer, als ein Jagdbomber. Warum hat man den überhaupt als Jagdbomber bezeichnet, statt wie bei der G-91 bei leichtem Bomber zu bleiben? So wirklich viel jagen konnte man mit dem Teil ja nicht - anders als mit dem Tigershark. Wie dem auch sei, Tigershark in Norm 83 verspricht schick zu werden. Wenn ich es hinkriege... Historisch gesehen ist klar, dass die F-20 nie gekommen wäre. Man wollte auf Teufel komm raus nicht mehr in den USA einkaufen und ein Flugzeug mit nur Triebwerk wollte man schon gar nicht. Ich überlege mir was im Bezug auf das erste (Lizenzfertigung; Veränderungen, um mehr deutsche Technologie aufzunehmen).

Wie der Mehrheit der Deutschen... es sind eher unsere lieben Journalisten, die dagegen anschreiben als wäre es der Untergang - besonders die erschreckend große Zahl, die von Rot-Rot-Grün phantasiert ("Linke Mehrheit"...). Naja, "gedient" ist ein sehr weiter Begriff. Grundwehrdienst, SaZ, BS...?

So blöd sollte keiner von Rot-Rot-Grün sein. Die "strukturelle linke Mehrheit" ist eine Chimäre, wenn FDP und AfD sich nicht Stimmen geklaut hätten, sähe Bundestag anders aus – und das wissen Rot-Rot-Grün. In einer Neuwahl würde mit Sicherheit eine dieser Parteien dabei sein, wenn nicht beide. Das mag zu Lasten der CDU gehen, aber im Endeffekt hätten wir mit Neuwahlen entweder Schwarz-Gelb, oder Schwarz-Rot mit AfD im Bundestag. Beides wollen SPD, Grüne und Linke wohl kaum. Schon allein deswegen wird es keine Neuwahlen geben. PS: was hat es denn mit den schicken Abzeichen zu Eurer Rechten auf sich?

First, the media coverage is done by people who know nothing about the military and usually disdain it (in the US much less than in Europe, still...). There is a nice 1977 article written for Germany's prime news magazine Der Spiegel about the Leopard 2. In this article the author claims the Leo2 is an overpriced, half-baked and almost useless tank - just slightly better than the T-72, if better at all. Second, however, people did have a memory when they produced that documentary: the F-16/F-1/etc. were planned to be the successor of the F-104G in most countries! With all the promises of what the Starfighter was supposed to do (when it only excelled in nuc-strike and intercept), with all the cost explosions, and of course with all the bribery involved - skepticism towards the next sale of the century was well deserved, since the last sale of the century had less than stellar results.

Indeed from a purely technical point, the ROKAF is perfectly capable of dealing with NK. But the fact that the US has send its best assets however is crucial, it shows they mean it. There is a political message that stealth planes convey and conventional planes cannot. It is not my focus, it was brought up by Typhoid. And again, I'd agree to the point that the S-300 would be greater threat - if it really is the S-300 and not some cheap knock-off, or just something that looks like it. Russia has not confirmed any delivery of S-300 systems. It is not anyone's guess to say they lack fuel, which naturally hampers pilot training. I will grant that there is no clear data on it though. The MiG 29-pilots may receive special attention - but this is really anyone's guess. As far as the numbers and capabilities of the MiG 29 are concerned, there are simply no more than 35 MiG 29 + 5 MiG 29 trainers, probably less due to attrition (the trouble with keeping the engine alive alone is staggering - one reason why we got rid of them even before we get rid of the Phantom). The single seaters are 9-12B, no other version has ever been confirmed, and they are the downgraded export version of the already downgraded WP-export version 9-12A. The 9-12Bs are equipped with radar (N-019EB) worse than that of the MiG 23ML without any ECCM, and while their own ecm is a joke, they have limited IFF, and they lack a datalink (so much for IAD). This is by far the very worst version of the MiG 29 ever produced. Technically they were produced in the early 80ies, but their technology is 70ies level. I do not see any reason not to call them overaged and available in small numbers. They are. What they are not is a reason to send the F-22. There are other, much better reasons, most of all a show of force, lower on the list is the ground based air defence, and rock bottom would be the KPAF aircraft.

Or you could expand the service time of the bird

Good points really, I'd sign up to all of these. MiG 29s, nah, totally insignificant. The KPAF could have Su 35s as well as Yak 1s, the US military is on a show of force. For that you need the F-22s.

Excellent camo! Is it the one Spain really used that time?

Even if I knew nothing of the KPAF as you in a show of your class suggest, it is still you who brought up the threat of the MiG 29 - downgraded, overaged planes with little fuel and inexperienced pilots available in small numbers. The S-300 may be a different affair, but one that you did not bring up and one I did not respond to. If I were to, I’d probably point to the fact that all we know is the NKoreans showed something that looked like it. Then again, you wanted to talk about the MiG-29, so go ahead.

Yes, the massive threat of 35 downgraded 70ies MiGs with inexperienced pilots and virtually no fuel can only be dealt with by sending F-22s. To state it clearly, I think the F-22 is worth it big time, but pointing to the KPAF is not helping to convince anyone who is not convinced already. ...which is probably the main issue here, people on both sides seem to try convincing themselves rather than others.

Looks nice in these colours! Dayglow high visibility markings were not used much in the Navy past the Starfighter, but I would not mind - just to see how they'd look on the Falcon :D

I would suggest the number 39 (that is the one after the Phantom), 42 (after Alpha Jet), or any number between 47 and 50 (after Tornado) – depending on when you plan to introduce the Falcon to W-Germany. There are several options for Marineflieger camouflages: Norm 76 from 1976-1987: http://www.panzerfux...1600311_b_1.JPG http://www.modellver...-hobbyboss.html (these are from MFG 1 though) http://www.jpsmodell.../n76mff104g.jpg Norm 1987 from 1987 on: http://www.modellver...ds-italeri.html http://www.jpsmodell...aw/n87e_tor.jpg AND, since this is a what-if, you could also take on an experimental camouflage: http://www.jpsmodell...raw/tor4385.jpg Re Sparrow: Our F-4F was physically capable of carrying Sparrows but not more, since the wiring inside was gone. The Phantom just had to mop-up what SAMs and USAF did not kill, therefore the Sparrow was deemed unnecessary. Moreover, these were the early seventies and the Sparrows performance was less than thrilling even in its improved iterations. Considering the airspace over Germany would be a hell of a lot more cluttered and chaotic I also have my doubts about its usefulness in WWIII.

The camo looks stunningly good! I am surprised how well it suits the Falcon The bird still needs some fine tuning though: - the markings: the Iron Cross was painted on the top of the left wing and bottom of the right wing, and on both sides of the fuselage - and nowhere else (you've got too many crosses) - in this time, the JG 74 was named 'Mölders' with the patch also named 'Mölders': http://www.rc-networ...74/RCN-JG74.gif - the number "37" was used for the Phantom; if possible you better chose another number (I know decals are time consuming work) http://www.geschicht...JsR0UA_aAhRw!!/ - no sparrows for the Luftwaffe. It is a what-if, though. If you want to retain the sparrows that's ok. Again, this is just fine tuning.

After the Starfighter with its many losses, the Luftwaffe became a bit oversensitive when it came to flight safety. Thus every fighting aircraft since the 70ies had to have two engines as a rule: Phantom, Tornado and Eurofighter. Technically, Gepard is right.

Danke euch, die Mirage muss ich bald mal ausprobieren! Die F-102 habe ich merkwürdigerweise nicht. Bin ja eigentlich ein Delta-Fan, aber für ein einzelnes Flugzeug zu bezahlen, während man hier tausende bekommt... Ja, ich weiß, die Quali ist sicher den Preis wert. Es ist halt so, dass man auch ohne Geld auszugeben hier mehr kriegt, als man in der Freizeit fliegen kann. (Für einen ordentlichen Starfighter G würde ich allerdings überlegen zu zahlen )

Indeed. Interesring, I had not thought about it before... While I would advise for Norm 81 (A or B does not matter), you would have to adapt it. There are no 'side' parts like on the Phantom with its high and boxy fuselage, the Falcon is rather flat. So I would only make upper surface with the three dark shades of grey (Quarzgrau, Basaltgrau, Staubgrau) and green (Grüngrau); and the two light greys (Lichtgrau, Steingrau) for lower surfaces/belly. Just forget the fuselage 'sides'. Or maybe you find other ways to adapt it? You seem to have some love for the F-16, so I guess you know better than me what would work ;) It would be interesting to see it in a pure fighter wing, say JG 74 Mölders, since the Falcon came from the lightweight fighter programme, which was followed with great interest in the Luftwaffe.

Very good!

Certainly it does... :) and it is more unique, because the 'correct' Norm 81 was predominantly grey - and there are lots of grey Falcons already... The first camo is Norm 72 and correct for any bird before 1981. From 1981 onwards, Norm 81 A and B were introduced to the fighters (JG) and fighter-bombers (JaBoG). Norm 81A: http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/draw/f4fn81a2.jpg Norm 81B: http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/draw/f4fn81b2.jpg Not too long ago, I made a skinpack for the Phantoms with Norm81B, it may give you an impression about that camo: http://combatace.com/files/file/13395-f-4f-80-norm-81b-camouflage/

You can count on me when it comes to advice for German What-Ifs Seriously, whenever I can help with historical and other Luftwaffe info, I will. Because I love Luftwaffe what-ifs. So you have my full sympathy.

So, hab einen neuen Rechner und kann vielleicht bald mal wieder ein paar Runden drehen... :) Gibt es substantiell neue mods oder Flugzeuge, die ich herunterladen müsste? Ich habe seit etwa Herbst keinen Überblick mehr...

Interesting. What exactly do you have in mind for the Luftwaffe? The AG 51 is a Reconnaissance Wing. It currently transferred some ECR-Tornados for the recently disbanded JaboG 32 thus it is strike and sead capable, but its prime mission is still recce. This F/A-16EG looks a bit heavy... In any case, I think you may be better of with Norm 95, or at the very least one with greys. http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/draw/n95_tor.jpg There has not been any scheme with greens for almost 30 years now...

Very nice one! Norm 31 on the Falcon really looks like it means business... however, for the sake of realism, I think the F-16 would have retained its fighter-bomber mission and thus be painted in Norm 81. Norm 83 was for strikers and other non-fighters only.