cougar_1979

Yep, that was exactly the one

I can't find the link right now, but there was this Hoser anecdote in which he mentions an interesting development during the early all aspect heater testing (i think it was the Lima). Namely he accelerated his plane as much as possible before reaching 10nm from the opposing aircraft (the one with Limas), then he switched the engined to idle and when they finally closed for the merge, the bandit could not get a forward seeker lock as the nozzles had cooled down significantly by then. Not that that trick would work today, as current generation (and the one prior) seans to be able to lock on the signatures generated in the nose and leading wing surfaces....

An interesting read for sure, though i am not sure how to interpet it. In the sim, you can't quite get the most of the Harriers as you can't simulate the proper thrust vectoring, and even when you can, you don't really have the proper control inputs (as in separate nozzle stick) to use it effectively. By reading those reports i can say two things. The pilots were good sticks (if the reports is true), OR someone wanted to make the SHAR look really good. I have read/heard inteviews of pilots that flew against diferent versions of the harrier (both US and UK) and the concensus seams to be that they can be tricky dogfighters. The accent being on tricky. But seldom have a seen the word excellent od good being used. The thing is, the harriers can pull some serious s*** whith the variable nozzles, probably more so then any other plane ever equipped with them, and to a pilot who never flew against such an adversary this can be a shocker. However the pilots mentions also said this kinda works only once and only if you face somone who hasn't been up against it before. You also get only one shot at the enemy. The harrier not being the most "thrust rich" AC, can do some crazy out of plane maneuvers, but the stunt costs him energy, a lot of energy that the bird is not quick to recover. And, against all aspect heat seakers, hiding your exhaust is not really helpfull. I wonder why those F-5E whent down instead of up though? Maybe they bled them selves dry first?

I only got him so easy because the AI decided to be creative and make that vertical pull. If not for that, the fight would have lasted at least 2-3 minutes more. I had 2 lenghty DACTs for you lads, but as i scrolled down my mouse went over the "weather blink" by accedent, and it all went down the drain. I can't retype all of it now, so forgive me for giving you the short version. This time i went free form and completely dissimilar. I took the new F-5E against the Sea Harrier FRS and vice versa. The first recording starts 3-4 turns after the merge as i forgot to push the record button (today i must be jinxed). Aside from being almost blind in BVR, the F-5 is a great nimble fighter. It loves both the slow and the medium airspeed fights with its performance actually increasing well into the 400's. This was a surprise to me as i didn;t expect that, always imagining it as a low speed dogfighter. Its authority in a break and roll is superb. One of the fastest rollers out there. It feels a bit underpowered in the mid mach region, so i would advice against excessive bleeds unless you are confident you can maintain constant pressure on the bandit. Being small and nimble is another great thing, i realised when i flew against him. I usually get my gun kills at 0.3-0.5nm as this gives me enough time to react to adversary jinx but also it doesn't take the stream to reach the bandit too long, thus minimizing chances of to broad a bullet dispersion or too much delay. Against the F-5 though, i onlu got my kill in the 0.2-0.3nm region. When later on i took the F-14A against it, thinking that maybe i am not used to the Harrier gunsight, i spent almost 600 round before finally getting my grips and closing withing 0.3nm (actually well within). On the second F-14A fight i got my kill relatively easy by firing only from ranges bellow 0.3nm. If your HUD, radar scope or gunsight, does not provide you with range to the target, try to find some visual clues as to when you should fire. For me it is that moment when the aircraft features become clearly visible (you have no promblems making out the wings, tail, stabs, or features like external stores and markings. The Harrier was pretty good. It had a superior BVR radar for sure. But it suffers from a somewhat early buffet onset, which restricts your ability to exectute hard breaks without bleeding of too much, too fast. The nose is somewhat shaky in the low end of mach. What this baby seams to have is a lot of thrust. It accelerates VERY good in the medium-high part of the envelope. In fact, i found its acceleration in the mid mach to be better then the F-14A when down low, which is extremely strange for a plane wihtout afterburner. So my opinion is the bird might be a bit overpowered. But that is just that, my opnion. I have no data what so ever on the real thing's performance. Anyways, i had a good time with both AC, the F-5 gun defense gave me quite a bit of challenge and i loved going against it. Flying with it is a joy too. In capable hands it is quite the match for any 4th generation fighter as long as the fight is restricted to WVR and you have a solid GCI. I am tempted to try a series of sorties with F-5E and A-4s flying against early F-14A's and see how the birds interact in the sim.

Finally a small window in time to write, fly and upload...... it's been a long week.... To conclude these un-dogdighty dogfights, this is the last match-up, the "twins" F-104 VS MiG-23, the G versus the ML Hop1, standard setup, 25nm neutral position. The video starts at the 10nm mark. Acquiring a radar lock with the F-104G seams a bit harder then with the other planes, so i guess the BVR would be less favorable in this case. Plugging the afterburner to get some initial bust for the merge. Merging at probably over 1000 knots closure. We both start a right nosto to tail two circle turn. With the radar set to boresight i get a nose on target first and cross his path at some 90 degree angle off. Turning again to get inside his circle. 1/4 circle later and i get radar lock, but the bandit has enough energy for a hard right break. I follow his turn but try to maintain a best sustained turn at around 400-450 knots. Trying to turn with him confirms just how close the two AC are matched when high on energy. WE slowly spiral down to ground level. At around time index 3:40 he suddenly decides to pull up of some reason and helps me get an easy six on him. Though only for a moment as he immediately goes in a low Yo-Yo, one i can easily match. From that moment he is all defensive and i got the initiative. The bandit goes through a series of hard breaks, trying to initiate flat scissors, causing him to lose some energy. It still easy to follow him. I get right in the gun parameters and try a several snapshots. He jinks like mad and i have some trouble connecting. Not for long. After a series of 3-4 misses, a small number of tracers finds the wau to his tailpipe and the following burst is off with enough lead to splash him mid air. Hop2. same fight, roles reversed. The MiG gets an easy lock the 104. I also get the impression that the acceleration is somewhat better in the transonic part of the envelope. However, from previous flights i also know the 23 has a very small endurance when in burner (yes even when compared with the 104) so i will have to be careful not to run out of fuel. I try to replicate the previous engagement, but the low-vis cockpit and the somewhat increased bleed rate then the 104 makes me execute a less then a perfect first turn, so we wind up in a neutral head on. Trying to shorten the total time i'd need for another nose on, i go vetical this time, thinking the extra thrust will provide advantage. Getting your lift vector on the bandit with that huge metal rod/thing right where the bandit will be in a turning fight is no easy tast though. I keep losing sight of him. As i do, he goes vertical himself and i decide to intercept his turn with a sustained left horizontal turn. Even as i manage to awlays keep a good energy advantage over him, as soon as he starts breaking i have trouble followong him in. The 23 suffers a strong buffet, bit just when slow, but when in medium-high angle of attack. At least the thrust isn't an issue. But if continue failing to get a good angle on him, i risk losing the fight on endurance. We both enter a downward spiral trying to give extra energy to out turns. There isn't enough place to go as we are already low, so this fight enters into a long circling match. Exactly what i dreadded the most. I attempt a series of breaks and recoveries to "steal" some angles on him with every turn. And it seams to work, 2-3 itterations later i am very close to him and with only some 20-30 degrees angle off. However we now enter the final part of a gun fight, when good low speed handling and keeping a good eyeball on the bandit is a must. Exaclty what i don't have. What i do have (compared with the Mirage F1), seams to be a good boresight radar, that doesn't suffer in the clutter that much and is "quicker" on finding a target with large angular motion. I try my first shot on him, just a short burst, but it;s a miss as he goes just a wee bit under my hood. I try to follow him but i lose sight of him and by the time i reacquire him his already above me. I set up for rolling scissors. Rolling out, pulling up, my vector on him , pulling into him, our roles reverse, now i am down again. Repeating the process a second time, but this time the bandit uses the energy gained from the dive to try and separate. I unload and go after him. My energy dissadvantage is neutralized rapidly in the shallow dive/unloading and are back where we started. Him breaking, me trying to bleed him dry. 3 turns in a row i get my nose on him, but as i am well outside his turn he shakes me off with ease. On the 4th try i give my nose a bit of the vertical in the attempt of gaining some turning space. As i climb a bit above him, the bandit must have seen this and reverses his turn. I roll in and dive on him. As hi pulls up i get bellow him and we are in rolling scissors again. The energy from the second dive is quite enough to get me saddled on his six. I give him a shor burst that misses. The second burst is from too close to miss. Just a slight pull on the stick, good lead and he's down in flames. The secind fight lasted quite a bit longer. At the start of this series of fights my rating of the "dogfighting" capabilities of these 4 AC would have been 1- 23, 2- 104. 3 -F-4 and 4 the F1. Now i am no longer that sure. Using dive slashes and excessive vertical maneuvers can change the outcome of the fight quite a bit. And what one plane seams to have more of, the other can compensate for with another quality. Based on MY preffered style of flying, the initial rating has somewhat changed. The low endurance and cockpit visibility of the 23 has made it drop to 2nd or 3rd place. It's performance is however still superior to the other AC. I would guess the later versions (especailly the MLD) would have solved the low speed handling problems and would get the MiG back at the top of the list. The 104G takes the top for me. It has a good cockpit visibility, very solid overal performance (second only to the 23) and no great vices when taking it medium or slow speed (considering the competition). Only the F-4 handles the slow speed better, but i still feel safe and confident when i execute a low altitude break in it. The only disadvantage of the F-104 is the endurance, but it can be offset by it's other advantages. The 4th place still goes to the F1, becuase of the "death trap" low altitude/low speed stalling properties and the slow dogfight radar mode. If it wasn't for the stall especially, it would have tied with the 23 and the F-4 for the 2/3rd spot. Overal impression though, when fighting against other planes with eny of these 4, do not turn. Or if you do, do it with a lot of excess energy available, try to get your angles advantage and if you fail, unload and disengage. Repeat if you must, but unless in an F-4, don't stay in the fight for long. Use your energy advantage to extend and dissenage. That would be all of tonight gentlemen. Safe flying!

Ahh, that makes sense now. No matter how much juice i added i could never get that extra leg on it. Thanks mate! Nice flying. It looks like the gun sight is a bit out of alignement and this is what gave you the aiming difficulties at the start. Judging by your last two shots, you should probably always aim a bit infront of the maneuvering target.

A bit late (it's been a busy week), but here is the las part of that DACT series. This time it's F-4E VS Mirage F1 and 104 VS MiG-23ML. As part one, i've uploaded the F-4 VS Mirage sorites. Same conditions apply as in the other fights and i start recording roughly 10nm out. Hop 1. I fly the F-4. By now i've seen enough of all the planes, so i don't even need to make these fights to see how they perform in comparisson. As a result, i allow myself more "creative freedom" or less strict rules of engagement. We merge on our left, and by the end of my first turn i am already nose-on him. He is not too far behind though (no big surprise as we are roughly similar when transonic), so we go for another neutral pass. This is when i decide to experiment and try to see if i can lure him in a vertical fight and make this video more fun to watch. I pull into the vertical and make a lightly loaded climb to angels 20. He is deep bellow me, on my 10-11 low, so i dive after him. He spots me and turns into me for another high neutral pass. He does not climb though, so it's probably gonna be another turning contest. I use my built up energy to pull some lead and get him on a defensive. He bleeds a lot of energy while breaking and tries to compensate by going nose low. I finally saddle on his 6, but it seams i have build up too much of an energy advantage and unless i break hard i as sure to overshoot. Instead of breaking though, i remember Eric's fight and decide to enter rolling scissors. I roll out a bit, pull up and get above him. Then i roll back in and pull down, waiting to see if he has enough energy to go after me. He pulls up, but he climbs very slowly which means he is probably low on juice. I roll again and try to get in his plane of manuvering. As he gets at the top of his climb and preapres to dive again i pull up after him and get a good snap shot, splashing him out of the sky on the second scissor iteration. Takeaways...... at this point in time, not really anything new. This was my second fight against the F1 in the Phantom. I didn't uplaod the first one, because we went into flat scissors and he stalled out and crashed his plane (the low speed F1 death trap). One thing i am pleased about is that even though i failed to lure him in a vertical fight, the engagement did end in rolling scissors, which are also somewhat rare as the AI prefers the horizontal ones. Hop 2. Same fight, roles reversed. One difernce i manage to notice, the Phantom is bigger when looking from the front, so i manage to see him earlier. Me merge on the left side again, but this time i fail to get an early nose on. I continue in a lag pursuit, trying to find his turning circle. As he slowly moves into my sights, i manage to get myself on the verge of a blackout and i am forced to unload, leting him fly across my hud. I reengage him and we start to spiral down, step by step with each turn. What i fail to notice is that his aspect has changed and has used a lot of his energy to almost point his nose at me. As he is now a lot slowe then me, he tries to push a nose to nose engagement. I try to get there first and give off a high defelction burst at him, but only a small portion of it hits. Only later do i notice i have failed to set my gunsight in air to air mode, and the thing didn't compute any lead. We make another hard left break and pass each other nose to nose. I set up my gun sight, (a bit late) and prepare for another run. Knowing of the nasty stall however, i am not prepared to go A-4 on him and cut inside his turn. Instead if i can;t get him withou dropping bellow 350KAS, i wll go vertical on my next pass, using the extra energy i have to bounce him from above. Fortune favors me though, and i manage to get a good shot while going head to head with him (jamming one of my guns in the process). Being a smaller target maybe helped a bit, but it was pure luck that he didn't fly right through my canopy. And i didn't even get a lock on him this time. Final verdict, the F-4 accelerates a bit better in the transonic and handles better at lower speeds, but the F1 is smaller and completely equal in the high susonic transonic maneuvering fight. One question i have for you guys. When i flew this sorties, i went for BVR engagements a few times. I tried to give my sparrows (or equivalnet) the extra legs by going faster when approaching but the dynamic launch zone did not seam to increase. In fact, it was not dynamic at all. The missile shot became available at axactly the same ranges every time. What are your experinces with this? Can the DLZ be expanded at all? Is this modeled in the sim?

Good shooting there mate! And even better maintained "eye on the bandit". @zwz, yeah, pretty much so. High energy bleeding maneuvers are almost never a good idea, even when flying one-on-one. Especially in a big and heavy fighter like the Flanker. Eric demostrates the major weakness of such maneuver here, where he uses a mix of rolling scissors and high Yo-Yo to quickly turn the tables on the bandit even after the overshoot. Many Flanker proponents would argue that a Cobra-like maneuver can be used for executing quick shapshots on overshooting planes, but i just don't see how. There are over 360 degrees of sky in every direction, and there is no way in the world to tell where will the enemy overshoot..... if he even does. Once inside the gun envelope (or bubble) even whith an HMS you can't get a good shot at a closely passing enemy. Especially when the closure is high. EDIT: sorry for the double post....

I could not agree more. Going for best turn rates and radius is almost always better then going for the best g load.

I would definitely agree with that. So much, that in fact i have set my default dogfight mode to be the vertical scan and not the boresight scan. I find myself using it at least 90% of the time. No wonder i guess, as in a hard turning fight, you spend most of your time with your vector pointed at the target, not with your nose. It's nice to see RL experience confirms it. That is a neat feauture indeed, i will have to use it at times. I wonder if it would work with the AMRAAM as well, if i recall correctly it should have the same off-the rail active capabilities of the Phoenix.

At least when i fly it, or fly against it. Other people may find it more to their style. You got me puzzled as well. I know the Phoenix could be launched in a sort of a "dogfight mode" when fired from closer ranges, when it would go active right of the rail, but it wasn't that often. The ability to detect and lock targets is usulaly determined by by 4 factors. The speed of the antena- the faster the better. The size of the cone being scanned (wider cone/more bars slow down detection time). The intensity of the beam that is returned to the receiver in conjunction with the size of it. The stealthy characteristics of the plane. As this was at very close range (the long range/BVR detection is actually quite good in the F1, better then the F-104 for sure) i would exclude 3 and 4 right away. This leaves us with 1 and 2. I don't know the scanning method used in the boreshight mode of the F1 (or of the other AC in the sim for that matter), but in falcon you have several "patterns". I.E. you have the fixed boresight mode, when the radar antena tries to cover the 20 or so degrees around the forward vector, then you have the slew method, where you manually guide the antena to a desired section of the sky in front of you, then you have the vertical scan, in which the antena scans only 10 degrees in the horizontal plane, but 90 degrees along the lift vector in the vertical and so on..... As you may imagine, different scan patterns give different results, but one thing is the same, the less of teh sky you try to chart and the faster you do it, the more likely to optain a lock on a target that has a relatively high angular motion compared to you. This of course leaves a greater portion of the sky as your blind spot, but you try to outset this by visually pointing your nose where you want it (hence the usual term for these scan patterns as "dogfight mode"). My guess would be, that the F1's radar was optimized more for the BVR engagements then the WVR, so when fighting close, the radar either tries to scan too much of the sky ahead, or moves too slowly (or a combination of both), to get a fast lock. It should be noted that i have expereinced similar issues with other planes when fighting nimble oponents (the most prominent being my engagement in the F-14A VS the Mirage2000), but never to this extent. P.S. I excluded the possibility of the clutter affecting the lock, as most of my attepts where either in lookup or neutral position. P.P.S. Does anyone know the dogfighting modes available to the AWG-9?

Some nice shooting there guys! @Saisran, that Phoenix certainly went active quite early! Or does the RWR give the warning as soon as the missile is launched? As far my my DACT goes, i finally went to fly the second "game" for the playoffs. I had some conectivity issues so i could not upload as soon a i wanted. That and i also had some Mirage issues ..... just for the sake of being as objective as possible...... my 104 flight was the very first try i made, my F1 flight...more like the 5th or so. Twise i ran out of ammo, twise i fell for the death-trap low altitude low airspeed spin.... but, i am getting ahead of myself..... Hop 1, I fly the Mirage. The video is cut down to save time. Standard approach, like the previous DACTs, i go into afterburner some 5nm before the merge and we pass on our right handed side. I let him cut across my tail and go for a high subsonic-transonic sustained turn. From my previous Mirage flights i know this AC handles this part of the envelope quite well. Good sustained g-performance, no vices in maintaining controll. However, as i finish up my first 1/4 turn, decide to experiment a bit and try to get an early nose on, maybe cause the bandit to panic a bit, so i tighten my turn and bleed some energy. With my radar set to boresight i get my desired angular advantage....and nothing happens. I could rant for hours about the frustrations i had during this fight and it won't be because of the nasty stall properties of the F1.... oh no, it will be about the ability (or lack of)of the Mirage's radar to acquire a good lock on a rapidly moving target, even in a look-up situation. This would force me to fire blindly and waste the already scarse ammo supply. Anyway, needless to say, he zipps across my hud and i go into a low yo-yo to pick up some much needed speed for my pursuit. Executing a good pull up, i wind up doing 400+knots and with him right above me....still no lock. The mirage surely has a very good instantaneous performance withing this competition. It could probably out point all the other planes. However it's acceleration is not as good. In the low to mid 300's it's worse then the F-14A even. So the energy you build is a valuable resource, that has to be used wisely. In some ideal world, this turning ability would be used to go nose to nose with these high energy planes, but the resaulting flat scissors, bring the F1 too close to stalling and departing, far too close for me to be comfortable in it. Besides, i don't like energy depleating maneuvers, too many times i had a heater down my pipe in Falcon, by getting my behind way bellow the corner and losing sight of the bandit (not that it would matter if you get that slow). So, i decide to unload a bit and setup for another puruit in the 400's. I begin to see a pattern in the way the AI uses the 104. After it has bled off a lots of energy in a break it will point its nose up, as if to enter the "death dance", but because of the good climb rates, it would shortly afterwards dive and regain lots of energy, keeping itself defensive with quite some skill. If i am to gun him down, i will have to make my pushes more frequent in order no to let him recover. We slowly spiral to the deck. Flying in the 400's may be good for the Mirage, but it's bad for the pilot. Blackouts are frequent. I try to remedy this but cutting inside his turn and bleeding down to the mid 300's. Sustaining a turn here is less demanding. Soon i get a good nose on, but still no lock. It takes 3 more iterations of the same maneuver to finally acquire a lock. However by 2 snapshots fail to connect. What i do manage, is to make him break even harder and slow down. However, i take too much time to setup for my attack and he somehow manages to reverse on me and pass my by at my 1 'o clock high. I instictively go into a vetical climb, trying to keep my mark I's on him. As i roll over the top, he pulls his nose on me and we pass again. I try not act as a complete idiot, and use the extra time i gained from coming out of the climb first to build up some speed. I am surely not entering a climbing contest with a 104. Instead i enter another flat turn and gain some 90 degrees on him. I should have less problems keeping him defensive now. The lock is there this time, but the aspect is to high so i decide to wait for a better shot. Entering another hight performace turn i gain aditional 10-15 degrees on him and he breaks once more. I keep my energy high and the third try is a charm. He has bled off too much and is climbing to recover. I am not going to let him. Keeping pressure on him constantly i gain another 10-15 degrees. One more turn and i'll be right on his six. As i do, he levels off (either because he knows i'm behind or he ran out of fuel-i have no idea, i don't have debug on) and go after him. He reverses the turn, trying to get nose low to regain nergy, but i get my hose up first and give him a short burst which blasts him out of the sky......... Takeaways....... the F1 is a very mixed bag in the ACM arena. It has the potential to eb the best dogfighter in this group, but it's flaws make it very tricky to be used properly. If you fly like i do, i would recommend to stay away from it or use it BVR. Not even energy tactics would help this baby in this competition, as the other AC are just as good or better at it. Hop 2, same fight, roles reversed. We merge on the same conditions, just this time on the left side. We execute a very similar sustained turn, which leaves neither of us with any significant angular advantage. As we enter the 2nd half of the turn i unload a bit, so i can get the extra energy for a harder break. I pull into him and get some angles. Not much, but just enough to put him in my view. I tighten mu turn and he dives to maintain the turning rate. It's not enough however. My energy advantage is big enough for me to maintain a constant pursuit and him breaking hard, only makes it easier for me to get behind him. As turn on his six, he reverses his turn and i prepare to overshoot. At this time i am quite happy with entering rolling scissors with him, as i am certain i have more then enough energy advantage. He makes another reverse, right under my nose but i fail to shoot him. I start my spiral in preparation for the initial climb into rolling scissors (i spiral in order to maintain visual contact) when he reverses again, apparently in an attempt to enter flat scissors. Never the less i give him another burst and this time he flies right through it, the 20mm going trough some of his left wing and fusselage. I roll again setup for another attack, but he is already burning. At his altitude it doesn't take him long to hit the ground. In just under 3 minutes. This alone speaks volumes on the realtive performance of the 2 AC. While the F1 enjoys a good angular advantage, it is far from decisve and certainly not enough to compensate for the sheer lack of performance in the other aspects. Not even the extra endurance is a saving grace as the enemy will have more then one avenue of attack to always keep you on defensive. Well....jsut one more series left..... 104 VS 23 and F-4 VS F1

Yah, it surprised me too. Not that it was dificult to surprise me. The last time i flew MiG-23's for any significant period of time, was in the old "Dogfight -80 years of aerial warfare" sim. And back then, the only stall was the one you reached when you airspeed was bellow your unloaded stall speed. Turbulances? Flutter? Buffet? No such things back then, you just point your nose where you want it and it kept going. The thing was pretty good there (MiG-23). It could tangle with the F-16, F-4 and MiG-21 quite well. But back to real life performance...... the buffeting isn't the only issue with the plane during the medium and high alpha flight, the wing sweep was regulates with a manual handle or switch or something. Imagine trying to keep up manually with the airspeed while looking around the "coffin", attempting to get a tally on the bandit.... Yeah i agree. And the stick setting plays a large role in this. I remember, when i first flew SF2 (coming from Falcon) my stick discipline was awfull. I kept overpulling and buffeting my F-14A so much, that i could not maintain any performance turn at all, let alone the best one. Then slowly i started experimenting with stick settings and sensitivity, until i found my sweet spot. Still, i fly the 2 sims with entirely separate stick settings. On a more personal note, i am still to find a stick i would be 100% happy with (it would have to have 2 separatre throttle levers to say the least). Me too. And Rafale phobia as well. The only way i could outfight those things in Falcon was to bring the Cat (B version) really low, almost ground level and use terrrain to my advantage. I definitely think those 2 birds were overmodelled. My opinion exactly. My first fights against a new bandit are almost always turning contest, as i try to get the "feel" of the enemy AC. Even in my current series of DACTs i try to avoid using the vertical in order to measure the AC's just by their turning ability. Well...not just by that (climb and acceleration matter as well), but you know what i mean....

Thanks mate! Yeah, it seams the 23 is pretty bad when slow. It doesn't seam to be directly related to the wing sweep though, it's more of an angle of attack issue. Still, it seams that the most forward wing sweep was not meant to be flown with, but used only for landing and takeoffs. Once you start getting close to the mid range (around 15 degrees) it's starts to buffet like mad and this only gets worse when slowing down. The second big issue (i might try to capture this on video) is the authority of the pitch. You can get some crazy instantaneous nose ups in this plane, the nose starts going in all directions as soon as the speed drops. Try imagining a cobra dance and you'll get the idea. The wiki article on the 23 mentiones that the MLD version in the early 80's actually adressed some of the low speed handling characteristics by implementing some minor structural modifications. BTW, loved that flight! The Korea birds are beauties to behold.

DACT matchup #3, F-4E VS MiG-23ML, guns only, starting at neutral. Both videos are cropped. In future i might even cut them even more, to include only the last 10nm from the approach. The first hop is with me flying the F-4E. Just like in the previous engagements, we start at 25nm away, only this time i want to let him come to my right. As we close in to 2nm i plug in the birner to get some extra speed for the initial break. Entering a hard break from mach 1.05 down to 380KIAS i get my nose on him within 1/2 a cirlce. He has made almost an identical turn and speeds by me. I decide to stay on him but this time with a sustained turn, in order not to sacrifice my turn rate. Another half a turn and he is infront of me again, wings spread out, which probablly means he slowed down. I follow him into another right turn, this time breaking down to 300KIAS. It seams he has bled off a lot of energy as he is hardly moving. In order to compensate, he dives low and and follow him through. The Phantom's (superb???) lower speed handling comes into its own as have little trouble staying with the bandit through all his breaks and jinks. He dives in once more, sweeping his wangs back and gaining energy for a climb, but stay on his six and give him 3 short bursts. The last one connects and damages his left wing. Another slight lead pull and the last burst makes him desintegrate into a fireball. Hop no2, is the same but with the roles reversed. Same conditions as before, only this time i let him pass me on my left. I botch the first turn a bit as i am too careful not to black out. Still, even flying as conservative as this i hear the specific wind sound of the plane going though the initial stages of buffeting. I roll into a nose low position to give my turn a bit of extra energy from the dive and manage to pull a nose on in the next few seconds. He executes a hard left break and try to follow him through, although by now i should have learned that the 23 doesn't like going slow. I remember this half through the turn and relax on the stick, letting the Flogger regain some energy in the dive. The rate of recovery is much faster then the one of the F-4, and possibly even the 104. I try to use this to my advantage, by performing the build-bleed procedure. From previous flights i know the 23 has very low endurance when in afterburner and i would like to avoid a typical turning engagement of energy attrition. By relaxing the stick i get my bird into the 900+ km/h range which gives me an exellent turning rate, but at the expense of frequent blackouts. I decide to come out of burner and break into him, which with the extra energy gets my nose right on him. He breaks hard left, a little high and i try to follow but with the current airspeed it's a no go and i plug the burner again. I slide in behind him and try a high angle off deflection shot, but he breaks before i can get my bank angle paralel with his and i miss. I unloadm turn left one more time and prepare for another attack. This time he breaks high and i roll into him to catch him in the climb. He reverses on me, but i gain enough energy in the climb to follow him without problems. I start pulling lead and give off a shot burst that misses the target. We get awfull close and i prepare to enter rollong scissors with him if needed. Fortunatley his break myst have cost him a good deal of energy and he levels off with me in pursuit. I give him another burst but i miss again. This gives him the chance to unload i get enough energy to pull a hard right break. I follow with a break of my own, but witness the 23's nose "rock" in the process. There is no way i can get a good shot if i don't calm her down. I unload, let her recover a bit and go for another missed shot. Fortunaltely for me, he seams in the mood for flat scissors and reverses his turn while i am right behind him. I fire a stream of bullets along his projected trajectory and he explodes in my sights. Lessons learned.....and confirmed...... the 23 likes the slow fight even less then the 104. At least the ML version. This and the low fuel available for a sustained fight make the bird much more useful when used with dedicated energy tactics. Unlike the F-4 which could play both ways in this competition, the 23 should use it's short bursts of superior acceleration and climb to get into a position of advantage, execute an attack and then bug out of the engagement.

@Caesar, excellent report mate! And some of those captures..... awesome timing Here is the second pair matchup. This time it's the F-104 VS F-4. I had several fly-offs between USAF F-4E and USN F-4N and F-4J. The NAVY Phantoms sure show better BVR capabilitites, and the two planes are a very near match in ACM as well. Did all the F-4E's had maneuvering slats? I got the feeling they handle a bit better when slow. Anyway, the problems started when i mounted the gun pods on the F-4 N/J. No matter which pod i used the impact on the performance was significant. When i flew with such a Phantom i used the vertical to offset the turning deficiencies cause by the added drag and weigth of the gunpod. However the AI did no such thing. It kept trying to turn in the horizontal and would soon wind up slow. This resulted in me getting on his six in no more then 2-3 turns. The AI would then give me a good gun defence, but that would only buy him some time. One on one, not much use. As a result i decided to go with the F-4E as a participant for this DACT. I want the AI to give its best. I had a similar duel with the F-104A F-104C and F-104G. It ends up the F-104C stands out a bit, as it has similar thrust to the F-104Gm but the F-104G is a few 1000 pounds heavier. Fearing that the C might be a bit over modeled, but without a major diference in how the AI was handling them (it was only easier for me when i flew the C), i decided to go with the F-104G. F-104A was not too far behind, but it's radar and fuel capacity was inferior. In hop 1 i went in the 104, level at angels 10, 25nm from the bogie. At this range you realize the first advantage the F-4 has. Radar. He can lock you up, but you can not. Even at shorter ranges your radar can't burn through his jammer until real close. But this is a WVR fight, so it won't matter. That, and this version of the Phantom has no onboard jammers . As we close in i let him pass on my left, i roll in and start my turn thoward his tail. I break to 450KIAS and then try to maintain a constant turning rate. I was tempted to keep it above 500KIAS, but fighting the blackouts would have been an issue. I get my nose on quickly, withing my first turn, but he hasn't been idel as well and the aspect is too high. I unload, let him pass across my nose, and then go after him again. I start blaking out, but i manage to get a few degrees on him. I repeat the process (unloading to recover the energy as i don't want to drop bellow the mid 300's in this plane). He gets his nose a bit down to maintain his turn without bleeding off too much energy and i follow him. We spiral down slowlyto abiut 1000ft AGL, and as he has no more altitude to spare, starts climbing back up. Overal a bad idea, as the 104 has superior climb and acceleration. His pull leads to a sudden reversal but he has gotten so slow i feel confident i can make a high deflection shot as a streaks by me. I hose him withe the 20mm and most of the burst connects. I do a 1-80 to reacquite him. He's up there, smoking against the sky. As i prepare to move in after him, he catches flame and explodes midair. Splash one.... Hop 2, the rolls are reversed. I cut this video short and skipped teh first 5-7nm of apporach. I had a good lock right from the start. WE follow the usual left hand pass and turn into each other nost to tail. I follow the same pattern as i did with the 104, but as i was a bit careless, my airspeed went a bit higher and i blacked out during the initial break. I unload for a bit, and start a sustained turn into him. As expected i get my first nose on withing the first turn. These two birds handle in a nearly identical manner as far as sustaining a turn goes. Again i let him pass and then move in after him. But during the second turn the diferences begin to manifest. AS we drop into the mid 300's the F-4 still maintains a good pitch authority, while the 104 starts to "float". I decide to capitalize on the opportunity and cut inside his turn, forcing him to break even more. He starts the downward spiral in order to recove some of the energy but i follow him in, keeping a constant nose threat on him, denying him the chance to unload. As we drop to arround 5-600ft AGL he runs out of space to run and decides to go up. He is a good climber but he started the climb to slow and too low. I have both the speed and the alitude advante when i unload and follow him up. He must have seen my coming and drops his nose left into a desperate dive to avoid my boresight. And it works.... he passes by too close and to fast for me to geta good shot. But i drop after him and gain even more speed in my dive. He starts the same routine, but this time i get my nose to where he wants to go first and saw off his horizontal tail as he passes. I must have sawed off something more, as before i have a chance to get my brearings, he bursts into flames and goes to make big crater in the ground. Lessons learned. These two planes are fairly similar. Almost identical in fact. As far as turning in clean configuration goes that is. The 104 climbs faster and accelerates faster. This should be used to maximize the energy advantage when ever possible. If you prefer a slower fight, with more turning and burning though, i would recommend you fly the Phantom. It handles much better when slower (don't expect any miracles though). This makes them equal in my eyes. The only reason why i would rate the 104 higher (just a wee bit) is because it is smaller, ligher and more difficult to see. Especially from the front. Next hops should be 23 VS F-4 and F1 VS 104

It worked. Now i can put any load i need for a given scenario. The first thought that came to mind was the SUU-11 gun pods, used in Vietnam. I will have to fly it with and against the F-4E of course, to see which version the AI will handle better. Thanks again! DCS has plans for a Tomcat? There was a time when they were adamant against it. The reason given was it would require too much work to make it double seater compatible, and not justified the effort. I know there is a good version of the F-15 on the way, and there was a Hornet in the works if i remember correctly.

Thanks mate! Will try that out ASAP. The BVR should come after (and if i have the time). Right now i am focused on the ACM part, which i prefer doing guns only. Well the Tomcat is my favorite as well, but that down't stop me from trying to enjoy and study all the planes. That is how i found (in BMS at least), that i have the highest kill ration (5:1) in the C Hornet. If you fly the F-5 with ease, then the F-18 should work even better for you. Benign characteristics, superb high alpha handling, tight turns. Jut remember to ease up on the stick every now and then to recover all that energy you bled off in those turns. For a complete oposite, try the F-16, or even the 104.

Not sure yet, but having flown a few, it won't really make that much of a difference. I'd like to keep the engangements pre-80's so already traded the MLA for the ML. For the 104, probably either G or A/C. Agreed. The Crusader would do well in some other "themed" DACT. Seing you fly it, i think you favor angles over energy fighters. Have you flown any Hornets extensively? They are like F-5s on steroids and then some (no wonder there as the F-5 was used as a base for the YF-17). I would recommend them to you more then any other AC i have ever seen perform. This is the first pair match up. The hop involves #1 and #4 on my list, MiG-23ML and Mirage F1. Switching from MLA to ML made some difference actually. The HUD symbology changed, but even more important, the radar ability to lock in boresight mode was reduced. I took the 23 first. We fly guns only. The two planes are almost exactly the same in a turn. I decided to play fair and avoided virtual exploits as often as possible. The Mirage rolled much better and had better visibility from the cockpit. The MiG had faster acceleration. In fact it was so fast, i struggled with overshoots few times. It should be noted that i have the least amount of flight time in this AC, so it is mostly my own fault and not the plane's. After the both fights were over, i have even harder time deciding between the two. The AI seams to handle the F1 a bit better though. It kept the 23 very fast (over 500KIAS when possible) and this gave it very wide tunring circles. It avoided breaking and using its stored energy to get better angles. I will have to try the MLA as an oponent to see if the AI will handle it the same. Final verdict.....even the ML is somewhat supperior to the F1 when flown by a human pilot. The excess energy can be used in various ways (either for traiding speed for angles or speed for attitude) and as unweildy as it is, it's still better then the F1 when slow. The F1's nasty spin tendencies when bellow 1000ft and bellow 350KIAS make it a very bad choice to enter any nose pointing contest. Here are the videos: My next pair will be the F-4 and the F-104.... but i have a dilema. Originally i wanted to match the NAVY F-4N VS the other AC. However with no internal gun, it makes it tricky to set it up as an enemy plane. The loadouts in the mission editor involve short range and long range air-to-air, but these are esentially the same. Does anyone know how i can make the aggressor carry custom loads? And if i chose to fly against an F-4 with internal gun, which one should have perfomance most similar to the N?

Some shot pre-DACT debrief.... I flew with F-4's, Mirage F1s', F-104's and MiG-23G MLA in preparation for some more in depth DACT reports. I only have the F-8 to test and i should be ready to go. Still.... from my previous Crusaider experience, i don't think that bird belongs here. But enough of that. These 4 birds are roughly equivalent to each other, at least in their clean configurations. They all like to be flown above 400KIAS (or 750km/h - metric). They all accelerate well and climb ok. Having external stores on them affects their capabilities in varied ways. Generally, the larger the plane, the less the penalty. So a Phantom with 4 winders is almost as good as a clean Phantom. Just don't put that 1500lbs gun pod on it (it will be hell to test it in a gun fight). On the other hand, a Zipper with 4 winders is considerably bugged down, in contrast with the same plane packing only 2, or zero missiles. Most of my fights were guns only though (when aplicable), cause i wanted to test the plane, not the weapon systems. To my surprise, as far as pure turning ablity, acceleration and overal agility goes, the MLA seams to be about half a step ahead of the competition. It turns very well above 400KIAS, and it regains speed rapidly when unloaded. The closest match to it seams to be the F-104. I think i can see why it was chosen as an aggressor surogate. Flying one against the other felt like flying the F-14A against the Mirage 2000. Almost mirrored sustained and acceleration turn capability with only slight advantages to the 23 in the horizontal. That alone would have made this bird the most "dogfighty" of the bunch if it wasn't for the flaws. First, my greatest bother is the cockpit. It is built like a coffin. I have flown WW2 tactical bombers with pits less claustrophobic then this one. On top of that, you have a huge blind spot (covered by some kind of metal surface over the canopy) that completely blocks your view along the entire lift vector. How are you supposed to execute vertical maneuvers if you can't look through your lift vector is beyond me. And the thing is really good in the vertical. Then there is the other blind spot, right behind you. The second big issue i have with the plane is the buffet. This thing starts to buffet very early, even at medium angles of attack and the thing only gets worse as you slow down. Drop bellow 750km/h and you'll start to feel the "delay" in your command inputs. Drop even slower and you lose nose authority like in nothing i have flown in SF2 so far. Try avoid doing this when down low as the bird can decide to "wobble" it's nose in random directions which may result in you kissing the treetops or the local countryside. The F-4 is the pure opposite. Flies like a brick, stable as brick, hard as brick. Even when slow, the plane won't do anything stupid unless you really insist on it. Even then you will get plenty of worning prior to it. It has all the climb and acceleration of the 104 and the 23, but in a more rubust casing. It feels heavy even when in a hard turn. It wond buffer quite as early as the 23, but it won't turn as well either. Not unless you plan your turn in advance and sort of "set it up". Without the drag and weight penatly of the gun pod, it holds a close 3rd place in its dogfighting capability. It has a better visibility from the pit then the 23 (no big surprise there), but worse then the 104. It can easily outlast both on fuel though. Against a clean 104 or 23, your best game is to stay alive long enough for them to dry out, and your big brick has just about enough of the right stuff to do it and maybe even get a few lucky shots (guns) at the enemy. Throw in the winders (and drop the pod) and the playing field levels fast. The Mirage F1 is a mixed bag so far. I am not sure where to exactly put it. It feels somewhat like the Phantom and it almost looks like the French wanted to build a plane that would compete with it. But.... it's a somewhat more "temperamental" Phantom. It has more vices in the drity parts of the envelope then the phantom, but less then the 23. It buffets strongly during rapid transitions from transonic to mid subsonic speeds in a loaded turn. It also has a nasty departure when extremely slow. But it also feels somewhat more lively then the phantom and it appears more agile in some aspects. Some may love its bad temper, but personally i prefer the predictability of the F-4. I won't go much into the 104 beyond what i've already said when describing my impressions of the other birds as i have flown it and wrote about it quite a bit in my recent DACTs. It has few vices. It climbs best of all the other candidates. It rolls fast too. Good acceleration and a good turning ablitly (sustained 7g at 500 or so KIAS). It is not as violent when slow like the 23, but then again it is also much more timid and sluggish at those speeds. Excellent cockpit visiblity. Much better then the other birds. The F1 follows 2ndm but it's far behind. Well that's about it for now. If anyone has any more experience flying this birds, feel free to jump in at any time. Meanwhile i am off the rest the Crusaider. Good night gentlemen....

I think i found a very nice USN Phantom N and boy is she a beauty to behold. Eyewatering beauty! I took her up for a few 1 on 1's before going full random mission. I would put her in the same class as the MiG-23, F-104 and Mirage F1 as far as handling goes, with some unique pros and cons of course. She climbs very well, and accelerates too. As you would expect she is not a great turner (still a match for a MiG-21bis) but she has a way with those over the top nose reversals. In fact, few planes i flew so far do it better (one of them being the Cat). Makes it quite easier to swoop down on hapless bandits. Which gives me an idea for a series of (D)ACTS. 23's, 104's, F-4's and F1's duking it out. One on one and two on two, WVR ofcourse. I would like to add the F-8 in the mix, as soon as i find a model that would fit the selection i have (i may have it already i just haven't flown it yet). Anyway, for the engagement. The starting year is 1971 and it's an escalation of the air war in SE Asia. A flight of 8 NAVY F-4N Phantoms II on a typical fighter sweep mission, get caught up in an erratic furball with some red force MiG-21's. Everyone is air-to air minded (i would guess). Our Phantoms don't carry any gunpods as i feel it would only slow us down. Our We start at angels 16, doing mach 0.9. Then we get a call, multiple bogies, 11 'o clock, 20nm angels 20. Them flying this high could mean only one thing, they came out to play. I get a cleat set of blips on my radar, that would mean at least 2 separate groups in tight formation. I try to set my flights on the groups, but it would seam that the "attack my target" order only works if you have tally on the bandit. So much for BVR maneuvering. I lock up the left most contact and order wing 3 to attack air. Dropping external tanks and just about the time when flight 3 engages the bogies with sparrows (did i miss on someone calling bandits or did they fire at will). No matter as we are within visual range and i get my first tally on the bogies. MiG-21MF's, comming in hard. I order flght 2 to attack the leading MiG and i engage the trailer. It's bandits, badints, bandits and the furball is on. Selecting winders, and going into high right turn, trying to reaquire the bandits. There are planes flying in every direction as i scan the sky, it must be at least 6 bandits out there. I set my eyes on one of them and i let him pass as i build up my energy. He dives in and i follow, radar se in boresight mode. I hear a Fox1 and my target goes down in flames. I pick up the next MiG, just to the right and go after him. AAA start popping all around me and scare the living hell out of me, a i think someone is going guns on me. The MiG levels off, i lock him up, select Sparrows, go for Fox1..... and nothing happens..... Fox1 again! This one seams to come off the rail with a working booster. One of my flights get another MiG. Meanwhile, my target dives bellow the horizon and my sparrow goes stupid. I am a slow learner and try to get off another Sparrow while he's in the clutter. Needless to say, this one doesn't even start to guide. I decide to dive in to his level or bellow now and as i do, he does the silliest move possible and starts climbing. I let off my last Sparrow. This one homes in for a while and then just explodes stupid somehere 3/4 to the target. I switch to heaters, and launch right away. Fox2! The gimbal loses sight of the MiG as he pulls hard left and the tone goes in my headset goes down as well. The bandit makes a hard turn thowards me and pull into a displacement rollat over 450 knots. Doing another roll as he's breaking for all he's got. By the time a reaquire him, he has unloaded and regained much of his energy. I decide to do the same and two breaks later i have right on my nose. The growl goes louder and i let him have my second sidewinder. This time he is right up in the sky and the winder brings him down. I turn around to pick up my next target, but it would seam like my little chase with the enemy MiG has took me away from the furball. They appear to be some 20 miles away from me. I get 3 distinct blips on my radar and i decide to intercept. I lock on to one of the blips and move in to ID it. One more MiG goes down in the meantime. The winder gets off a strong growl at whatever is ahead of me, but i can't shoot without making sure it's not a friendly. Those IR seakers still don't distinguish between red and blue heat emissions. It turns out the plane i had a lock on was that MiG that just got hit. I get a mission complete RTB call, but i still have missiles left and someone seams ot be engaged with MiGs so i decide to stick around some more (mission complete? i must have missed most of the battle even on the radio). I lock on to the contact at my 10 'o clock and turn into it. Someone is getting gragged. I tally the MiG, finally.... and give my wingmen the order to attack. I get a good tone and we both launch. My winder homes in true and it's my second kill. Another one of my wingmen goes down. And i don't even have the slightest of ideas where all of this is happening. As i look around i see mostly my Phantoms flying, so this fight could not have turned out that bad, despite me having a small or no roll in it. I finally see another MiG, 10'o clock high. I padlock it and go in after him setting my wingmen as well. Almost immediately he lets lose a Fox 1 and the MiG is down. This part of the fight seams over (at least we helped a bit) so i scan the sky for more bandits. I get a call at my six and i do a 1-80 to pick it up on my radar. There is definitely something there, at my 12'o clock high. And it's not alone. One of the Phantoms is engaging it. It must be his ehaust that my winder is picking up. I move in closer to get a visual confirmation. Another MiG-21. As i follow him to get a clear shot, my flight gets one more kill. These guys are doing suprisingly well on their own. The MiG spots me and makes a hard left turn, bleeding his energy rapidly. I pull up, roll on my back and dive for him. He reverses into a right break bellow me. At times like this i wish i had a gun. I let some separation build between us and then follow him in a hard dive. I almost black out as my F-4 buffets trying to stay on the MiG's turning curve. Over the radio i recieve a message that 4 is bingo on fuel. I can't be far away from bingo myself, so this fight has to end soon. Fortunately i finally level off with him perched high at my 12. I come around from the blackout and launch the winder. It's my last one and goes in right for the kill. It's splash 3 for me. It's time to go home. I order a regroup and head for base. The order has not yet sinked in as another MiG goes down. How many of them are there?! And another one! At this point i decide to cut the video short so i can upload it. Total mission score.... 10 freaking MiGs destroyed. 7 primary and 3 additional. 3 Phantoms were lost as well. I am not used to AI friendlies doing this well when outnumbered. Takeways, in this era avoid shooting at targets bellow the horizon. Also avoid firing your heaters at more then 15-20 degrees angle-off. Aside from that. Keep your Phantom fast and you will have no problems turning with those MiG's, or better yet, Yo-Yo-ing them. And keep a more mindful attention of the battlespace.

@Kyot54 That was some much appreciated info and a sold post to boot! BTW, the way the sim interprets "light air activity" is striking at times EDIT: i'm still not sure about the Phantom. The vanilla ones seam very sluggish at all altitudes, especially with draggy stores. The ones in NF5 seam a bit more lively, but am still in search of a descent NAVY versions. The only time i actually flew with/against F-4s (except the good old Dogfight in the 90's) was actually in Falcon BMS, and the version there was a slatted E i think. Down low it definitely has an edge of the early F-8 they have there. Still.... neither of those (especially the F-8) has had lots of attention pured into it, so i can't vouch for the validity of their flight models. Now off i go to find a nice F-4 pack to do some Mirage F1, F-8 and MiG match-ups

I think i found a decent relatively even match for the 104. Mirage F1 and it's variations. I mean, as long as this isn't BVR. The F1 is worse in the vertical, but still farely fast. It is a better turner then the 104 on the other side. As long as you don't bring it under 400KIAS. Under no conditions do you bring it bellow 300 as it has some nasty stalling issues. Anyways both AC seamed a bit equal to me when i flew them (again, guns only, or rear heaters).