RAF_Louvert

. Olham, you are not belittling my find at all my friend. Anything that promotes the collection and preservation of old books is a very, very good thing, IMHO. I'm doing my bit. Here is the listing of my current WWI literature collection: Personal Narratives and Biographies: "A Flying Fighter", E.M. Roberts, (1918 1st Edition) "Airmen O' War", Boyd Cable, (1918 1st Edition) "An Airman Marches", Harold Balfour, (Vintage Aviation Library Edition) "An Aviator’s Field-Book", Oswald Bolcke, English Translation, (1917 1st Edition) "Cavalry of the Clouds", Alan ‘Contact’ Bott, (1918 1st Edition) "Cloud Country", Jimmie Mattern, (1936 Pure Oil 1st Edition) 3-volume set "Days on the Wing", Willy Coppens, English Translation, (1931 1st Edition) "Death in the Air", William Heinemann, (1933 Edition) (famous faked aerial photos) "Double-Decker C.666", Haupt Heydemarck, English Translation, (1931 1st Edition) "En L’air!", Bert Hall, (1918 1st Edition) "Fighting the Flying Circus", Edward Rickenbacker, (1919 1st Edition, ex-library copy) "Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps", James McCudden, (1918 1st Edition) "Flying for France", James McConnell, (1917 1st Edition) "Go Get 'Em!", William Wellman, (1918 1st Edition) "Guynemer, Knight of the Air", Henry Bordeaux, English Translation, (1918 1st Edition) "Heaven High, Hell Deep", Norman Archibald, (1935 Signed 1st Edition) "High Adventure", James Norman Hall, (1918 1st Edition) "Immelmann: The Eagle of Lille", Franz Immelmann, English Translation, (1930 1st Edition) "Kitchener's Mob", James Norman Hall, (1916 1st Edition) "Letters From a Flying Officer", Rothsay Stuart Wortlrey, (1928 1st Edition) "Memories of World War 1", William Mitchell, (1960 Edition) "Night Bombing with the Bedouins", Robert Reece, (Battery Press Edition) "Nocturne Militaire", Elliot White Springs, (1934 Edition) "Rovers of the Night Sky", W.J. ‘Night-Hawk’ Harvey, (Vintage Aviation Library Edition) "Sagittarius Rising", Cecil Lewis, (1936 Edition, 1st US printing) "The Flying Poilu", Marcel Nadaud, English Translation (1918 1st Edition) "The Red Knight of Germany", Floyd Gibbons, (1927 1st Edition) "The Way of the Eagle", Charles Biddle, (1919 1st Edition) "True Stories of the Great War", (1918 1st Edition) 6-volume set "Up And At 'Em", Harold Hartney, (1940 1st Edition) "War Birds; Diary of an Unknown Aviator", Elliot White Springs, (1926 1st Edition) "Wind in the Wires", Duncan Grinnell-Milne, (1968 Edition, ex-library copy) "Winged Warfare", William Bishop, (1918 1st Edition) "Winged Peace", William Bishop, (1940 1st Edition) "With the Earth Beneath", A.R. Kingsford, (1936 1st Edition) History, Reference, and General Interest Books: "Air Aces of the 1914-1918 War", Bruce Rpbertson, (1964 Edition) "Aircraft of Today", Charles Turner, (1917 1st Edition) "Aviation in Canada 1917-18", Alan Sullivan, (1919 1st Edition) "Colliers New Photographic History of the World War", (1917 Edition) "Decisive Air Battles of the First World War", Arch Whitehouse, (1963 1st Edition) "Fighter Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War", W.M. Lamberton, (1964 Edition) "Flying The Old Planes", Frank Tallman, (1973 Edition) "Fragments From France", Bruce Bairnsfather, (1917 1st Edition) (Great War cartoons by the master of the genre) "Heros of Aviation", Laurence La Tourette Driggs, (1919 1st Edition) "Historic Airships", Rupert Holland, (1928 1st Edition) "History and Rhymes of the Lost Battalion", L.C. McCollum, (1929 Edition) "History of the World War", Francis March, (1918 1st Edition) "History of the Great World War", Rolt-Wheeler and Drinker, (1919 1st Edition) "Land and Water" Magazine, (entire April through September 1917 series, hard bound, ex-library copy) "National Geographic" Magazine, (entire 1918 series, hard bound, ex-library copy) "Reconnaissance & Bomber Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War", W.M. Lamberton, (1962 Edition) "Source Records of the Great War", (1923 1st Edition) 7-volume set "The First War Planes", William Barrett, (1960 Edition) (the one that started it all for me) "The Great Air War", Aaron Norman, (1968 Edition) "The Great War", George H. Allen, (1919 1st Edition) 5-volume set "The Great War in the Air", Edgar Middleton, (1920 1st Edition) 4-volume set "The Lafayette Flying Corps", by James Hall and Charles Nordhoff, (1964 Kennikat Press limited edition two-volume set) "The United States in the Great War", Willis Abbot, (1919 1st Edition) "The U.S. Air Service in World War I", Maurer Maurer, (1978 1st Edition) 4-volume set "True Stories of the Great War", (1918 1st Edition) 6-volume set "U.S. Official Pictures of the World War", Moore and Russell, (1924 1st Edition) 4-volume set 1920 World Book Encyclopedia, (entire set with addendums, great for cross-referencing in an historical context) "Time-Life Epic of Flight", 23-volume set, (not old and not strictly WWI but still a lot of good info and photos) "The War in the Air", Raleigh and Jones, (1st Edition) 9-volume set including map cases . . . (originally in the military library at Whitehall; my personal Jewel of the Crown) Instructional Books: "Aeroplane Construction and Operation", John Rathbun, (1918 1st Edition) "English-French War Guide for Americans in France", Eugene Maloubier, (1918 Edition) "Learning to Fly in the U.S. Army", E.N. Fales, (1917 1st Edition) "Lewis Machine Gun ‘Airplane Type’ Service and Operation Manual", (1918 Edition) "Practical Flying", W.G. Minnies, (1918 1st Edition) "The Art of Reconnaissance", David Henderson, (1916 1st Edition) "Science of Pre-Flight Aeronautics", (1942 Edition) "Self-Help for the Citizen Soldier", Moss and Stewart, (1915 1st Edition) .

. Ironhat, the answer to your question about why they mounted the gun that way is painfully simple: they had no better way to do it at the time. The Foster mount had yet to be invented, and the French design for the interrupter gear from two years earlier had been shelved and forgotten about. Necessities of war can create some strange temporary solutions to problems. .

. Not to worry Olham, I'm not ashamed, just having a great laugh at my own expense. Thanks for the heads-up on the SE5a firing triggers Sir, more good info to add to my ever-expanding knowledge base. .

. OMG! I can now serve as the poster child for stupidity and inattentiveness. Next time any of you are in OFF, jump in a Camel and look down at the control stick. While the blip switch may not be there, the two thumb lever triggers most certainly are! I will be laughing at myself over this one for a long, long time. .

. Feast or famine. Just located the following illustration of the Camel which shows the traditional triangular-shaped handle along with the blip button and dual trigger levers, (slightly different from the Snipe but still the same basic layout): Cheers! Lou .

. WOO HOO! Success. Nick over at "The Aerodrome" had posted about a year-and-a-half ago the following pic from the Imperial War Museum which shows the entire Constantinesco CC fire control system, and stick, out of a Sopwith Snipe, (which should be about the same as the Camel and any other Sopwith kites of the era): Bletchley, I am now quite sure you are correct Sir. The button on the top is the blip switch to control engine speed, while the two thumb levers control port and starboard guns respectively, which brings up another interesting tidbit I was not aware of: You could fire the MG's separately or together on the twin-gun Sopwiths. This also means von Baur was quite correct about the "looks" of that button being electrical in nature rather than mechanical. Me so happy! .

. Bletchley wrote: I don't believe so Sir, but I suppose it is possible. In numerous frist-hand writings from the period the Sopwith pilots talk about holding the control stick and having their thumb on the trigger "button". However, in Captain Norman MacMillan's 1929 work, "Into The Blue", he mentions two triggers, (but does not use the term "button"). Here is the excerpt: "On September 10th I led five Camels on a patrol over Ypres. We had not been flying long over the lines, and were flying at 14,000 feet, when I saw below us a formation of enemy planes, made up of two DFW two-seaters protected by five Albatros Scouts. I had previously arranged that, in the event of encountering escorted aeroplanes, I should attack with one Camel, while the deputy leader and the other Camels were to remain above to protect our tails from attack. I swung our formation round above them from the north-easterly course we followed and dived for the two-seaters. Brownell came down in station. The remaining three Camels maintained their height. Down I rushed through the crisp, cold air, watching my Hun through the sights, holding my control stick with both hands, thumbs resting on the double gun-triggers within the spade-shaped stick-top. The observer in my opponents bus saw me and I saw him swing his gun to bear. I saw the double flash of his shots even as he grew to personality in my sights and I pressed the fateful triggers. At the very first burst he crumbled up and fell backwards into the cockpit. My streams of lead poured into the fuselage of the plane around the pilot's cockpit and the DFW tipped up and over sideways and fell tumbling down. I looked round for Brownell and saw him squarely on the tail of the second DFW, He pressed his triggers instinctively in a long burst. The Hun's tail rose upward. A curl of smoke came from the fuselage and he fell headlong, plunging like a flaming comet. Above us the three Camels kept the five Albatros Scouts engaged." From this particular account one could assume there were two trigger thumb "levers" located within the opening of the control handle, thus leaving the button on the top bar as the blip switch, (though I've never seen such levers in any photos I've run across). I will keep digging because now I really want to know, and if I could find a good close-up shot of an orginal Camel stick it would likely put the issue to bed. .

. Welcome to the OFF virtual skies Matador. Try this one I put together a while back. New Hanger Fade Sound .

. SWEET! WTG VP. Siggi owes you a pinta' at the very least for that little tip. .

. Think I wet meself laffin'. .

. von Baur wrote: vB, while an electrical switch could have been used, it was not. In the link I provided to "Firing Between The Props" it describes exactly how pushing the thumb button actuates a lever that pulls on a Bowden cable that is connected to the needle valve in the reservoir cylinder of the Constantinesco sonic pulse system, i.e. the C.C. Gear. This is the synchronizing system the Brits used on nearly everything once they finally decided to start using one. It was quite different from the interrupter gear used by the Germans. Also, I did some digging and BH is correct about the early top-mount Lewis being fired by an open "loose" cable that the pilot simply pulled on to fire the gun. But I'll bet that got changed pretty quickly after a short time of trying to live, (or die), with that in combat. Flyby PC wrote: Actually Sir, quite a lot has changed in terms of weight in the layout you envisioned. By doubling the amount of ammo carried, and adding a second Foster-type rail system, plus increasing the overall length of both rail systems, you've added easily another 60 pounds. While that does not sound like much in today's aircraft, back in WWI the designers and engineers were constantly trying to sort out how to make do with the engines and materials they had at the time, and as mentioned earlier here they made decisions such as using the Lewis over the Vickers because it saved them 5 to 7 pounds. These seemingly small amounts of weight had a very noticable impact on the agility, climb rate, and overall handling of these light, underpowered aircraft to the point were taking off with half a tank of petrol could give a pilot the "killing" edge over his adversary. .

. I'm rather fond of how thrilled the soilder looks who had to guard the wreck. I can just about imagine what he was thinking... "Gott im Himmel! Just let me get back to zee mess hall before Schmidt has eaten all zee sauerbraten!" .

. WHAT'S THIS?! A fighter pilot exaggerating about his brave exploits and daring escapes. No such thing. That's like insinuating fishermen are less than completely honest about the one that got away. .

. Yuppers, I noticed the landing gear in that pic too. And it's even more amazing when you consider we are talking 1918 bungie cord technology. No fancy composites or synthetic rubbers to speak of there. .

. That's true BH. Even more impressive would have been if they'd used a couple dozen barmaids from the bierstube during Oktoberfest, each clutching twelve tall steins full of the traditional liquid manna. .

. Static load testing: Kickin' it "Old School". .

. Sieben wrote: hee, hee...nice of you to say, Sieben, but I was just giving everyone a bit of wind-up. I do find it funny how often someone will post something and then a few posts later someone else will post almost exactly the same thing. Seems we all like to show off how much we think we know on one of our favorite subjects. Cheers! Lou .

. uncleal wrote: That is a very good and critical point when we are talking about a situation where they would choose the Lewis over the Vickers because it was 5 to 7 pounds lighter, and that weight savings actually made a noticable difference on the handling traits of a particular aircraft, as made mention of by catch in his post. This is why they also looked towards the men of smaller stature to serve as pilots...less weight. .

. LOL! I swear to God people don't read even half of what others post in a thread. I had mentioned the problem of jams and lack of ammo space in regards to the outer wing mounts of the MG's six posts before Bullethead's, AND, three posts before that I talked about the advantage of being able to slide the Foster-mount Lewis back to shoot upward in certain situations! Maybe it's just my posts that folks don't read. .

. Hey, thanks RC. I found it apropos. .

. Olham, a knife fighter would be someone, or in this case something, deadly agile in very close quarters. He can move and turn so quickly in a close-in fight that he'll cut you before you know what happened. .

. While it may not have been a wing load issue Flyby PC, I can think of a slew of other concerns. First of all, given the habit of these early MG's jamming, you would have no hope of clearing it if they were located out on the wings. Secondly, the Lewis would have been out as a choice since the biggest ammo drum available was the 97-round unit, which proved to be even more prone to jams than the 47-round unit. At least the Vickers could handle a 250-round belt, which of course would present its own issues of where to stow it in the wing. Also, I have a bad feeling that the repeated recoil shock the outboard wing structures would have suffered from the MG's being mounted out there may well have led to some killer problems...literally. .

. As I recall there were a variety of reasons: mounting issues, synchronization issues, belt feed and spent shell issues, and the fact that in some applications having the ability to shoot "up" was considered a good thing. More than anything it was probably resistance to change. The Brits seemed to hold on to "tried and true" ideas far longer than other air services in WWI. .

. hee, hee, that's the truth uncleal. If you couldn't throw at least a few rounds into a Zep even with that set-up you should be flying a desk. .

. They did just that Sieben. The SE5 had one fixed Vickers firing through the prop and the Foster mount Lewis up top. BTW, that pic I posted is not an SE5 but rather an Avro 504K Home Defense kite. .