Hauksbee

Here's the same photo taken from Wikipedia and is captioned "Ball in front of a Caudron G.3" Still, I find von Baur's objection compelling.

It was me. Do you want me to re-post the pics?

When the gunner has to use the top wing gun, how does he keep from falling out of the plane? Presumably, there's a tether of some sort. But anything long enough to let him stand up has to be long enough to dangle him over the edge if they are in a real furball.

My copy of "The Blue Max" arrived today. Of course, I watched it immediately. It was very much as I remembered it, warts and all. However; seeing it again with fresh eyes, I start looking at other WWI flying films with a softer appraisal. The errors in "von Richtofen and Brown" (same exact planes) seem more forgivable, much like "Flyboys" and the others films that play fast and loose with history. I even watched "Dawn Patrol" on Netflix. Seems they were flying Nieuport 28's in 1916. (at least they could still purchase real honest-to-God Nieuports in 1938) This all got me wondering what Stachel actually flew at the end of the film. It was obviously a stand-in for the Fokker D-VIII. So I went looking, which brought me to Wikipedia. The following is a good look the Hollywood-ization of the novel. Film versus novel The casting of George Peppard in the mainly international ensemble cast was considered a "safe" choice, as he was establishing a reputation for leading roles in action films. Although youthful looking, at 37 years of age, he was much older than the Stachel depicted in the novel. Peppard wanted to create an "authentic" performance and learned to fly, earned a private pilot's license and did some of his own flying in the film, although stunt pilot Derek Pigott was at the controls for the under-the-bridge scene. The film differs from the book on which it is based both in the plot and the portrayal of the characters. Some of the differences are: Stachel: The movie portrays Stachel initially as an idealistic, humble, and naive man who evolves into a complete sociopath over time. He is also depicted as being insecure about his lower-class background and desires to prove himself an equal aviator and man to the aristocrats by earning the Blue Max. The vain attempt by Stachel to confirm his first kill is only found in the film. There is also no confrontation with Heidemann who takes a swift dislike to Stachel over claiming aircraft that Willi had shot down. Stachel was played by a 37-year-old George Peppard, in stark contrast to the 19-year-old character of the novel. From the beginning of the novel, Stachel is a deeply troubled alcoholic with a penchant for lying. Obsessed with earning the last of the new Fokker D.VIIs, he kills Willi to obtain it. Heidemann, in the novel exhibits an immediate favoritism toward the newcomer, and credits Stachel with his first victories while Kettering, the squadron adjutant, refuses to comply until Heidemann orders him to do so. At the end of the novel, Heidemann reveals that he has been secretly boosting Stachel's achievements as part of an experiment in publicity management. Stachel earns his Blue Max not from 20 victories, but by destroying three aircraft and capturing one after Heidemann's guns jam. (Stachel is so drunk, he cannot even recall the engagement.) He is also honored for saving the life of a French girl who falls into a river. Stachel does not die in the book, and in fact meets the future commander-in-chief of the Luftwaffe, then-Hauptmann Hermann Göring. Stachel marries Kaeti von Klugermann after the death of Graf von Klugermann, as noted at the beginning of The Blood Order, the second book in Jack Hunter's Stachel series. Hauptmann Heidemann: Heidemann's deep longing to be with his wife and her growing depression over his absence are more subtle in the movie than the book. In the novel, Heidemann does not accuse Stachel of treachery in the shooting down of the British aircraft over their airfield. He regards Stachel as the best pilot in the Jasta after himself, and has already planned to assign Stachel one of the new Fokker D.VIIs. In the novel, Heidemann (not General von Klugermann) is the one who recognizes the propaganda value of building Stachel up into a hero and uses this as a means to get himself reassigned to Berlin, to be near his wife. Willi von Klugermann: Willi is described as a "fat aristocrat" in the book who has only one victory more than Stachel. In the film, Willi is leaner, more arrogant and competitive and earns a Blue Max shortly after Stachel's arrival. In the book, Willi regards Stachel as a close friend, and his affair with Kaeti is revealed only after his death when Stachel reads his journal. Unlike the movie, they are never rivals for her affection. In the novel, Willi is murdered by Stachel to obtain the last of the five new Fokker D VIIs allotted to the squadron. In the movie, Willi is accidentally killed in an aerial competition with Stachel over who is the better pilot. General von Klugermann: In the movie, the count is a career General-Oberst in the German Army. In the novel, his title is Graf and he is a famous surgeon who has researched alcoholism and other addictions. Unlike the film, the Graf and Gräfin do not have an open marriage. In the film, General von Klugermann recognizes the social turmoil erupting in Germany and presents Stachel as a lower-class hero. Doctor von Klugermann, an aristocrat, recognizes the unfair nature of Germany's class system – something he disapproves of, but makes no effort to change. Käti von Klugermann: Käti's character in the book and film are similar. The Gräfin, comes from the lower classes, but relishes her status and wealth. Both characters deftly employ sexuality to get what they want. In the book, while drunk, Stachel extorts money from Käti with his knowledge of her affair with Willi. Later, she blackmails Stachel to marry her by threatening to reveal his murder of Willi and two British pilots. In the film, she proposes that Stachel run away with her to Switzerland, something he refuses to do. For this slight, she exposes Stachel's lies. Her husband, the General, then sends Stachel to his death in an unstable plane to preserve the honor of the officer corps. Elfi Heidemann: In both the novel and the film, Elfi is a nurse stationed in Berlin. In the book, Elfi is an alcoholic who overcomes her addiction with the assistance of Doctor von Klugermann. Stachel recognizes Elfi as his kindred spirit, and after Heidemann's death, seeks to form a relationship with her. Käti literally stops him at Elfi's door, forcing Stachel to marry her instead. Stachel ruefully accepts his fate to return to Käti and alcoholism. Corporal Rupp: Rupp has only a minor role in the movie. In the novel, he is a major and thoroughly distasteful character, whom Stachel describes as "a pig of a man." He earns extra money by smuggling cheap booze to Stachel, and using one of the squadron's reconnaissance cameras to take pornographic pictures for Kettering's extensive collection of erotica. In the end, it is Rupp who provides Käti with evidence that implicates Stachel in Willi's murder. Conclusion: In the movie, Heidemann flies the monoplane first and determines that it is a "death trap" because the struts are too weak for the wing loading. General von Klugermann then sends Stachel to his death in order to shield the German Officer Corps from the shame of Stachel's false claim of two victories. In the novel, it is Stachel who tries out the new biplane, finds the defect, and then allows Heidemann to fly the aircraft. Before Heidemann takes off, Stachel tries to stop him in order to save his life; however, Heidemann continues and dies. Hunter's novel ends with Stachel meeting a young Hermann Goering, who has assumed command of the vaunted "Flying Circus" after the death of its commander, Manfred von Richtofen.[3] Stunt flying The majority of the aircraft used in the film were converted Tiger Moths and Stampe SV.4s. Two Pfalz D.IIIs were produced (by two separate companies) for the film, along with three Fokker D.VIIs and two Fokker Dr.I triplanes. Other German machines were represented by repainted Tiger Moths and Stampes. The British aircraft were similarly mocked-up trainers. The German lozenge camouflage was not universal to all units at the time the story takes place (Spring 1918), but, in the film, aircraft of all German units are shown in this scheme. The Fokker Dr.I triplanes are purpose-built replicas. The Tiger Moth silhouette was more appropriate to British aircraft of the period, such as the S.E.5a (one of which Stachel shoots down during his first mission) and presents a good general impression of actual contemporary aircraft. Morane MS 230 (See attached pic.) The "death-trap" monoplane at the end of the film, known as the "Adler" (German for eagle) in the novel, may have been inspired by the Fokker E.V, which was a late-war monoplane design which did indeed rapidly gather a reputation for poor construction of the wing, resulting in several crashes before being modified and re-designated the Fokker D.VIII. In the film it is portrayed by Patrick Lindsay's Morane 230 Parasol trainer, with a faired-over front seat in order to simulate a monoplane fighter visually. The depictions of aerial combat in the film are particularly realistic, although most of the flying scenes have green fields as backdrops, whereas, by 1918, the Western Front was more mud than greenery. The aircraft ground scenes were shot at Weston Aerodrome near Dublin (which should not to be confused with RAF Weston-on-the-Green, England). Pilots from the Irish Air Corps helped recreate the live dog-fight scenes, supported by number of civilians, including Charles Boddington and Derek Piggott. Piggott was the only pilot willing to fly beneath the spans of a bridge. Taking the role of both German pilots and with multiple takes from contrasting camera angles, he ended up flying 15 times under the wide span of a bridge in Fermoy, County Cork, Ireland, and 17 times under the narrower span. The two Fokker Dr.I triplane replicas had about four feet (1.3 m) of clearance on each side when passing through the narrower span. He was able to fly through the arch reliably by aligning two scaffolding poles, one in the river and one on the far bank. The director had placed a flock of sheep next to the bridge so that they would scatter as the plane approached in order to show that the stunt was real and not simulated with models. However, by later takes, the sheep had become accustomed to the planes, and had to be scared by the shepherd instead. In the printed take, the sheep continued to graze, creating a continuity error which can be seen in the finished film. The entire collection of aircraft, uniforms and supporting equipment was purchased from 20th Century Fox by ex-RCAF pilot Lynn Garrison. He kept the collection together in Ireland under his company, Blue Max Aviation, Ltd. Over the following years they played a part in You Can't Win 'Em All, Darling Lili, Zeppelin, Von Richthofen and Brown, plus a number of television commercials, including a classic Ridley Scott production promoting Opel's limited edition "Blue Max." Both of the Pfalz replicas and one Fokker D.VII now belong to New Zealand film director Peter Jackson's 1914-18 Trust, with the Viv Bellamy-designed Pfalz now being on display at the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre in New Zealand. All three aircraft are kept in fully airworthy condition. Locations The scenes where the Germans come into the French village were filmed on Calary Bog in County Wicklow in Ireland. For many weeks, the building of the village attracted the locals to watch it coming up. Then it was bombed and made to look destroyed. It was a local tourist attraction for a long time after the film had wrapped. The Berlin scenes were shot in Dublin. Christchurch Cathedral and the Irish parliament building are easily recognizable in the background of many scenes and Trinity College served as the army headquarters where von Klugermann's office is located. Many of the flying scenes were shot at Weston Aerodrome (EIWT) near Lucan, Ireland, about 10 miles west of Dublin hence the name confusion with Weston-on-the-Green. Weston Aerodrome is also home to the National Flight Cente . There is also a restaurant named after the movie at the Aerodrome . The final scene where Stachel meets his fate was filmed at Baldonnel, the Irish Air Corps' main base. The hangars seen in the movie were built for the RAF in 1918.

This could be a good time to review Olham's post on the massive mines.

There's some available on Amazon.com...but not cheap.

Nicely antiqued photos.

Italian biplanes! Soviet Ratas! I signed up. However; it seems that I've signed on to something that doesn't exist yet. Ah well. I'm looking forward to the Korean War. I've always to cruise Mig Alley. The original "Mig Alley" game would never play on any of my machines. I must have bought four or five copies over the years hoping that 'this one will be the one that plays'.

And Mr. Darwin just keeps smiling.

I couldn't believe it when I saw that ending for the first time. My reaction was: "No! You can't do this to me." Blackadder always weasels his way clear.

Has any our vacant-eyed, over-immersed pilots ever said "To Hell with this! I can't take it any more." and tried to fly to virtual Switzerland? (which begs the question: Where does the OFF terrain end?)

Indeed, the scenery is amazing. I was looking at one of the pics. posted recently that showed a rather large town/small city that receded into the haze, and it suddenly struck me how much work must go into building a city. (even assuming the use of modular parts) I know that as you fly a campaign mission you experience the weather on that certain day in, let us say, 1916, and the trench lines change according to date, but what about towns and cities? Do the Devs work from historical maps of the era?

That was outstanding! Chill-your-blood-outstanding. Somehow I had always felt (without examining the idea too closely) that if you were in the trenches in WWI, if you kept your head down, you were reasonably safe from flying ordnance, shell fragments, bullets, and the like. True, there was the occasional artillery shell that lands spot on, and gas, and the times when you had to get out of the trench and run across a coupl'a hundred yards of Hell, but, on the whole, the trench afforded reasonable safety. I look at things much differently now. And I was not completely unprepared for this. Years back, there was a quarterly, hard-backed magazine called "Horizon". I recall an article about a department of the French Government (not military) whose job it was to respond to calls from people who, to this day, find unexploded ordnance working its way to the surface each spring. Lots of this is found by farmers, when their plow hits something metallic. It was/is a modest department in size: about two dozen field operatives, and some administration staff. Most of the stuff found is inert, but they do take their casualties. Something like two new job openings over any three or four year period. One of the guys interviewed said the most feared are the gas shells. The chemicals are still in there and the shell walls all are corroded to a greater or lessor degree. They get special handling.

In the mornings, when the Allies were heading for the German lines, the winds were off the sea. That gave them a tail-wind inbound to the target, but head-winds on the return trip. Pilots and planes that were shot up found those head-winds a real handicap. Also, the Germans pursued homeward bound Allies. Many victories were not the result of white-knuckle dogfights, but simply picking off crippled stragglers.(BTW, that's a nice, clean graphic!)

Good work, Olham. It's their duty to be as secretive as they can, and our duty to pry it out of them!

So I guess I wasn't that far off. Thanks.

How does one translate "Kaiserschlacht"? Is it 'striking a blow for the Kaiser'?

I watched it again last nights (warts and all). This morning I looked for where it was shot and other details. (Wikipedia, of course) It turns out that all the planes are owned by a Canadian, Lynn Garrison (ex-RCAF) http://en.wikipedia..../Lynn_Garrison. After "The Blue Max" was done filming, he bought all those planes too. Ex-RCAF pilot Lynn Garrison supplied the aircraft, crews and facilities for Von Richthofen and Brown and personally coordinated the flying sequences for Roger Corman’s film. Garrison had purchased the collection of hangars, aircraft, vehicles and support equipment accumulated for filming 20th Century’s top grossing film, The Blue Max, in 1965. The collection included replica Pfalz D.III's, S.E.5s, Fokker D.VII's, Fokker Dr.I's, plus Tiger Moths, and Stampe SV4C's (the Belgian Tiger Moth). Corman used an Alouette helicopter, along with a Helio Courier, for aerial photography, supported by a number of specialized camera mounts Garrison developed for use on individual aircraft. This allowed footage of actors, such as John Philip Law, and Don Stroud “flying” the aircraft. In actual fact, Lynn Garrison trained Law and Stroud to the point where they could take off, land the Stampe, and fly basic sequences themselves, from the rear seat, filmed with a rear-facing camera. Stunt pilots were still used for the more complicated sequences, one such pilot being famed New Age author Richard Bach. Bach wrote about his experiences with the film production in a short story entitled "I Shot Down the Red Baron, and So What", which is reproduced in his short story collection, "A Gift of Wings". On September 15, 1970, Charles Boddington, veteran of The Blue Max and Darling Lili shoots, was killed when his SE-5 spun in during a low-level maneuver over the airfield. The next day, during the last scheduled flight on the shooting schedule, Garrison and Stroud were involved in a low-level sequence across Lake Weston, in the Stampe, when a jackdaw struck Garrison in the face, knocking him unconscious. The aircraft then ran through five powerlines, snap rolled and plunged into the lake inverted. Garrison and Stroud were rescued from the waters. Stroud was uninjured while Garrison required 60 stitches to close a head wound.

I just discovered "Aces High" on Netflix Watch Instantly. So I did. If you can sit through that, then "von Richtofen and Brown" won't seem all that bad.

"Hell's Angels" holds up remarkably considering it's so old that it was originally shot as a silent film, then re-shot for sound. Best of all...all the planes were real. Howard Hughes said at the time that he had the largest private air force in the world.

"The Blue Max" is about as good as these things get, but it was pretty thin compared to the book. Bruno Stachel was a very complex character. Willi (Jeremy Kemp) didn't die in a test-of-skill flying accident, Stachel killed him (forced him into a crash). Stachel doesn't die flying the 'new monoplane', his squadron commander does. Stachel flies it first, realizes that it's a death-trap, but can't tell his commander. Stachel survives the war. It ends at a bar/party where Hermann Goring comes over and introduces himself, congratulates Stachel on his war record and offers him a job. You can see where Stachel's future is going.

'Looks like he got it right after all.

He can definitely paint! By the way, what plane is that?

How bad is it? Here's the list of factual errors tabulated by Wikipedia: The film contains so many factual errors (a selection of which are listed here) that it is effectively almost completely fictionalised: Richthofen is shown flying a Fokker D.VII before flying the Fokker Dr.I, when in fact the Dr.1 came out earlier than the D.VII. Von Richthofen died (just) before the D.VII entered service. The aircraft of the Flying Circus are shown as being painted in a uniform scheme of blue and silver - in fact they were painted in varied individual colours, with red predominating. Hermann Göring was not in the Flying Circus until he took over command some time after von Richthofen's death. Wilhelm Reinhard was Richthofen's immediate successor. Hawker died in November 1916, flying a D.H.2. Brown did not begin flying combat missions until March 1917, and in any case never belonged to the Royal Flying Corps (see next point). Thus the two never served in the same squadron, and probably never met. Brown's squadron had just ceased to be part of the Royal Naval Air Service, which had just amalgamated with the Royal Flying Corps to form the Royal Air Force in April 1918. He and his squadron mates would still have been wearing naval uniforms. Roy Brown and his squadron flew Sopwith Camels, not S.E.5s, as depicted in the film. Brown almost certainly did not actually shoot Richthofen down. Lothar von Richthofen did not join Jasta 11 until 1917. Anthony Fokker and Oswald Boelcke were both still in their twenties at the time - not balding men in their 40's. Boelcke never served in the Flying Circus, which was formed after his death, although he was Richthofen's commanding officer in another unit (Jasta 2) in 1916. Ernst Udet did not join the flying circus until 1918. The portrayal of the death of Werner Voss had little relationship with the facts. He was shot down and killed in northern Belgium, some time before Richthofen's death. Lt May did not enter the RAF 209 squadron until 1918 - in fact he was still an almost complete novice at the time of Richthofen's death. During a scene where the Red Baron is rescued in No Man's Land, the Germans are shown firing World War II era (Mk.IV) Lee Enfield Rifles. In any case, German fighter squadrons as a matter of policy flew well behind their own lines. The only time Richthofen was shot down before his death was on his own side of the lines. On the day of his death he was probably lost, and did not realise he was so close to the Allied lines. Attacks on the opposition's airfields (by both sides) were relatively routine and in no way "unexpected" - counter measures such as alarm bells, anti aircraft machine guns in permament positions, fire fighting equipment, and above all military preparedness were also routine. Such attacks were normally undertaken by bombers rather than fighters, even by the Allies. German fighters, in particular, simply did not undertake bombing missions, nor were they employed on the Allied side of the lines. Base hospitals were not located at military airfields (this in itself would have been a breach of the Geneva Convention).

Very pretty, indeed. In that beautifully caught moment, it even looks easy to fly. (LOL) Is it my eye, or are those tail booms a bit on the thin side?