HumanDrone

Well, exactly. It's why I have dubious belief in UFO's being aliens. If they have the technology to get here, they could do whatever they want with us. Unless they are particularly virtuous and have chosen to just let us screwed-up primitive primates alone, my guess is that if they are out there, they can't get here any more than we can get there. Best, Tom

But can they add this aspect into WOFF? Can you imagine "flying" as we do, and having to make reports only as to what we see on the ground? Still, since we're only two weeks away, I don't want to suggest anything that would jeopardize the release! I'd order the thing if I didn't already have a drawer full of half-read books. Life...

Ahh, Home Sweet Home! Had to re-load my avatar, though! Thanks guys, for all the hard work. And, uhh, Lou, who is THAT shady-looking character with the OFF insignia on his cap? Looks like Cary Grant!

HA! Worst thing is, such scenarios (if warp drive is even possible) could indeed play out. It's our human-ness, the transitory nature of people and civilizations, that presents in some ways greater problems than just the technological ones! - just what your story said, but your story was much more entertaining than my dry, one-line synopsis! Since we're still kicking this one around, here's a few thoughts from the late Carl Sagan about Mars, and what we should do if we find any sort of life there. Interesting and a little sappy.

You should've told them you were a "simmer" so they could take the artery from somewhere else! Seriously, though, take care and welcome back! Hope you come out better than ever!

Well, exactly. Like I said, travel into interstellar space would require essentially a micro-planet, and that's assuming we can get a propulsion system that can get us to relativistic speeds (or "warp", but hey, who knows what we'll figure out by then) - and slowed down again! Any craft that may need to be out there for a hundred years or more needs some serious consideration - humans being humans and all, they get old and die, they want to marry- you'd have a mini-society on board. You'd have to have medical facilities, educational facilities, a group of people large enough to prevent inbreeding, gravity simulation... it's wild to consider - unless, again, we can cut missions down in length due to some unimaginable (at this point) propulsion system, wormholes, warp drives, and that kind of stuff. But yeah. Keep trying. We gotta keep trying.

And along the lines of doing the impossible, I came across this inspiring story this AM. Good read.

I messed around with Orbiter enough to know that I make a lousy astronaut! Great program, maybe when I'm retired... BH, you & I have more or less represented the pessimistic or practical side of these things, Flyby the optimistic. But I think we all realize the tremendous challenges that arise with present technology to colonize either Venus or Mars, much less travel in interstellar space. I think we all realize that some incredible leaps of mankind's abilities must take place for that to happen. It's just that Flyby is more optimitistic that eventually, some way will be found, and we oughtn't to let present limitations intimidate us. We all understand the challenges, and I don't think either you or me are saying "Stop trying," or as Flyby says, don't build a Wright Flyer until you can build a 747. The robots are doing fine, as we all can agree, and better than fine. So if we can work out both a need and a means to terraform either of our two neighbors, then good. I submit that none of us here will need to be concerned about it; I'll be under the grass long before then. But hopefully our spirit of adventure, discovery and development will continue apace. But still, until mankind solves it's moral problems, I'd bet we won't be able to mount much of an effort to go anywhere. Just imagine, for instance, if NASA had the money we've spent in Afghanistan and Iraq. I think I'll take a sail over the lines and see what I can find... (Edited, hadn't seen Flyby's last post)

Flyby: If you are disagreeing with me, your're disagreeing with the wrong guy! Sorry if I left you with the wrong impression! Everything you say is true; and I'm tickled pink, and awed by the success and accuracy of Curiosity. And yeah, those changes you are talking about on Mars are pretty massive; but I think that for us in our lifetime, a working colony on Mars would be the best we can hope for. What's beyond the solar system is just so incredibly vast that again, unless we can find some way around Mr. Einstien's equations, we run up gainst the problem that, even if we found a place to go, we're talking years just for the "mail" to go back and forth; the vessel to get there would need to literally be an artificial microplanet, capable of supporting life, repaining itself, educating new generations, advanced medical care, growing food, energy generation, and everything else including advanced guidance and a way to land, and even recover a party on the new abode. That party, once landed, would have to be able to start almost from scratch to make a life for themselves - building the chicken coops, getting the crops started, the works, drawing whatever support they can from the artificial moon that their mother ship has become. And, in essense, once they are past the heliopause, they are gone for good. Human civilization on earth could forget that they are out there or even die away. Even if we managed to get to relativisic speeds, we could be talking 20-30 or more years one way, and as of yet we haven't found any sure places to go in that range. Maybe the Webb telescope will help there, who knows? But my ultimate point was not technological but moral; as a race we must find a way to keep all our oars in the water together for there to even be a hope of developing the kind of technology we and the tremendous amount of resources we'd need to accomplish such a thing. We've made most of the last century's best advances by working on ways to kill one another more efficiently; that has to change, and I sure don't see it anytime soon. Then, too we could face a reciption such as Widowmaker posits! Best, Tom

I fully agree with you, BH, as regards us getting of this orb. But we should keep pushing; 'tis our nature to explore & discover. But wow, even if we could, where would we go? Everything else in the solar system is inhospitable at the very least; even Mars requires a complete artificial habitat and a lot of heat to keep it at survivable temperatures - we'd probably have to go underground. And nothing else habitable is even known to be out there for sure, and that within several lifetimes' journey - unless we develop the ability to travel at relativistic or even "warp" speeds. At that, I can't imagine boarding a craft and watching Earth disappearing in the distance, with me likely never to lay eyes on her again! Yow! So we'll keep on trying, but, as we agree, for the foreseeable future, there is no "Plan B." So I hope we can learn to make the best of this planet without killing half the race fighting over it!

Well, I'm with both of you (Flyby & BH). BH is right, as we all know, in that barring some wildly new technology, we aren't getting off this beautiful blue marble in significant numbers anytime soon- and if Mars is the destination, I'm not sure I'd want to go, at least not permanently. But then you look at the US Federal budget (if you can do this without immediately panicking, or throwing up...) and you see $18.2 billion out of $3.73 trillion, and that isn't quite 0.5% - or 1/200th of the total budget. (Now to keep your stomach or prevent wild, panic-stricken screams, just ignore the fact that we're only taking in $2.47 trillion, leaving another deficit of over $1.2 trillion... Man, a trillion in my bank account - or even 1 million, which is 1/1,000,000th of trillion, would sure make retirement easier to face...). For the knowledge we get, these robot probes are the way to go. Criminee - the interest on the National Debt in 2011 was something like $250 billion. NASA is only a small, small portion of the budget deficits. Politicians promising us the moon & the stars (see what I did there?) and spending us broke on all sorts of crap, along with the corruption of selfish & unscrupulous scoundrels in Washington and Wall St. have stolen far more from this once -great nation than years & years of NASA budgets. Of course, these wars haven't been a help either, and I seriously wonder if that wasn't the whole idea - the anti-Americans knows we'll spend ourselves broke trying to be secure, and that just isn't possible, but it's bleeding us dry. And in the end, we ought to clearly see our options - until we as a race stop wasting resources trying to kill one another, and learn to live in peace, there is no real chance of us escaping the laws of thermodynamics - the sun will eventually extinguish itself, etc. I think the Creator was very wise that way, in that He gives us no "Plan B." Either learn to get along, or stay put and die. Well, a new reply just snuck in ahead of my bloviating pile of rubbish. Let's see what it says! (BTW Widowmaker - loved the Martians!) Tom Lou! HA!

Wow... Congrats! But as long as you enjoy it, keep flying! I could use a little stick time myself, right now. RL has been very busy.

Pop to the top for those seeing the other thread "Is the new look permanent?"

This is a quick one: When I upgraded to my current rig and Windows 7, I got TrackIR 5 as part of the deal. But I also had an older Logitech webcam. It claims to have drivers for Windows 7, but I can't get it to work. My wife is just as happy, she hates awkward Skype sessions (whereas I typically just be a jerk, turning the camera upside down, or bending down over the back of the monitor, giving them closeups of my nostrils, eyeball, etc...). But now the boss has discovered Skype, and anything I can do that wold allow me to make working at home easier would be a seven-fold blessing, so I ask: Are any of your TrackIR types using a webcam as well? In other words, do I just need to go get a new webcam (and not tell my distant relatives...)? A few quick answers and this thread can head for oblivion, I suppose... Thanks, everyone! Tom

Well, I sure appreciate it. It rained a lot yesterday so I took another look at it. Unplugged TrackIR, plugged in the cam (it identified as a Fusion), and showed up in Win7 devices. But the software matrix showed only one version that would work for W7 64 bit. I downloaded that and the memories came back. The language selection drop box was full of nothing but "12345678901234567890....." It said a compatible camera was not detected. I've tried the clean install and all the rest, I tried installing in spite of a camera not being detected, and nothing works. I guess it's time to kick this one to the curb. But I sure appreciate your help and testing! Best, Tom

But I'll stick up for Hauksbee. Calvin & Hobbes is second only to Schultz's "Peanuts" (Charlie Brown and Snoopy) in my book! Still, we need to get our olds style sheets back. Gives the joint some atmosphere, you know? HEY! Where's my avatar?!?!

Well, there is a Class 1 Derp on my part! That tag is long gone! Still, as I recall, I was able to identify it on their site - it just wouldn't work, is all. Sheesh. Tried all the compatibity settings, all that. It's like I've said about computers - the better it gets, the worse it gets. I have an old Epson all-in one that scans everything beautifully, including negatives. Prints pictures just as nicely. But the scanning software, etc, that lets you do all the adjustments won't work anymore. Perhaps I could run it (and this silly camera) in XP mode, but man what a pain that would be! I used to be good with these things. I've written code in 4 languages, whipped Finite Element software into submission, done a smattering of real-time code at the breadboard level, worked out schemes to pass data between programs by reading wacko "alpha-hex" format, crazy stuff like that. Criminee, I've been at these things since "punch card" days. But I can't make executable code work if it just isn't right. As to the poison ivy, you have my sympathies. When I first started through the wooded part of my ground, I encountered both poison ivy and wild grapevines that I had to take my trusty double-bit axe to! I've had poison ivy 3" in diameter up a tree trunk, and wild grapvines 5-6" at the ground - one actually startled me as I lifted my head up from ducking under some brush - it looked like an anaconda or something! I have a picture somewhere of a couple of my (teen-aged) kids sitting on it! The people I bought it from had inherited it, and though they lived very nearby, they couldn't be bothered - so the orchard gradually died off, and vines, mullbery, brambles, and poison ivy just took over. It's mostly steep and useless ground, except for the firewood and funiture-grade cherry growing up there. But man, it takes me moving. We've cleared about 1 acre total and we are trying to define the boundary between civilized and wild. Then, because it's so steep, we want to get the banks landscaped so we aren't on them all the time trying to keep the weeds beat back. Plus manage the wooded part so the best trees can continue to grow without being overtaken by the stinking vines. I have so many lawn & garden tools that my garage wall looks like a hardware store! And even though I have a tractor with a 60" mowing deck, because of the hills and the detail work, I'm still 3 evenings a week to get it all mowed. So that's where a lot of the effor is being expended now - projects to streamline the mowing. So thanks, I'll keep at it. Best, Tom

Yessir, sometimes I think I could use a 55 gallon drum of Brush-B-Gone! On my camera, the USB plug says 501733-3000 and underneath "HC" on the left and "SH on the right. A former partner at my firm was severly sickened when young; he and his father were burning brush that apparently had a lot pf poison ivy in it; he got the smoke in his lungs and it messed him up. When I'm going after that stuff, I "dress out" like I'm going into nuclear reactor building - taped wrists & ankles, a hood, all that jazz. And I never, never burn it! Thanks agin, it's still daylight out so I gotta go! Tom

Fantastic! My only connection to that program is that my company custom designed and built replacement 150 Hp motors for the vertical motion simulator. My boss recenetly did the repowering study for the crawler, but I didn't get involved with tha at al!, unfortunately! Tom

Tamper, Thanks, it's late and I've been working outside. I'm trying to rehabilate 6 acres of land that had gotten well out of hand before I bought it. That keeps a body busy! Vines & poison ivy alone could makea full time job! Anyway, mine is a 1.3 mp model with a USB plug. I think it may have been called a "Quickcam", I don't have the original packing. I'll try fiddling with it again sometime this weekend, maybe. i rmember trying the clean installl stuff - hanged if I know what it is...! Best, Tom

My good glory, that is one sweet paint job, Lou!

They could have landed at Edwards Air Force Base in Southern California, but that, of course, has to be a decision made well before the de-orbit burn. And Bullethead, I'll second Olham's assesment of your writing skills, I'd have loved to have been there with you for that one. I was in engineering school for the Challenger disaster, the whole place was as silent as a library - we were all shocked. I later worked with an engineer (one of the semi-retired "associates" that we use) who worked on the investigation into the failure. I wouldn't make a pimple on that guy's .... Sadly, he's gone on to his reward. On a nicer note: Toward the end of the program, NASA released a Google Earth "Live Space Shuttle" add-in that allowed you to follow the shuttle in very close to real time. Had a little Space Shuttle Icon and everything. I followed Discovery's last landing with it, but the last flight, I was kinda sad because I couldn't watch the landing at some ungodly early hour of the morning. Strangely enough, though, I woke up at 4:30 AM. So I got up, fired up my computer and laptop, and had NASA live TV on one, with Google Earth on the other. Then I get a text from my 82 year old mother - "Are you up?" She lives in Winter Haven, FL, near my sister. She went downstairs, but in the dark she couldn't see the shuttle. But she stayed on the phone, and so I got to hear the last sonic boom over her cell phone! You know how in an air liner, you're traveling at, what, .82 - .87 Mach and 39,000 ft max? And you start descending probably a good 100 miles from your destination, just easing on down... Winter Haven is like, 40 miles from the Cape, and the Shuttle passes over it at 90,000 ft doing Mach 3, and they proceed to "dead stick" a 1 shot landing a couple of minutes later. You read the exploits of the pioneers, from Lilienthal to our heroes from the Great War, to these guys, and you wonder how their craft ever left the ground carrying their enormous brass ... well you know what I mean! Think of the moon landings and how many things had to go right. What must it have been like to be on the moon's surface - fantastic on the one hand, but the "magnificent desolation" spoken of by one of the astronauts - I mean, it's just you and your buddy and if that little rocket right under your feet doesn't work right... just unbelievable courage. Best, Tom

Thanks, Tamper, and yes, I was paying attention to JimAttrill's post - and no, I never got as far as Skype, and Skype currently isn't even installed. I couldn't even get the camera to install and be recognized, much less the little app that lets me gape at myself on-screen. So I dunno. Maybe it's just too old. I'd have thought better of Logitech, they claim the drivers work for W7. As you say, there is no reason to have both TrackIR and a webcam running at the same time, so there really is no reason for it other than a hardware/USB compatibility/driver issue. I was just looking over your specs, my goodness you have the fancier I7 series and you're good at 4.8 GHz! Nice! I really haven't pushed mine yet, and everything is running smoothly in the sims. Now when WOFF comes out in two more weeks, that may be a different story, and I'll have to start fiddling with it. Overclocking isn't my strong suit, but when it came with messed up overclocking specs from the assembler, I had to dig into it a bit. Thanks, Tom

Thanks guys! Yes, Tamper, I have an Asus board - P8P67 M Pro. I hadn't thought of USB as the reason - so much for standards! And yes, my Logitech cam is old, so if you feel like messing around go ahead - I'm in no real hurry. I didn't have it in a USB 3.0 slot, I don't think, but it's worth a try there on my part.

Bugs and Daffy? Now Snoopy I can understand, but when we've gone to Looney Tunes, I think we've gone Looney indeed! err - HH, you have bugs and Daffy in aircraft? umm... that just might be fun! And to think of it, not only was Tolkien "down there", but indeed, Hitler as well. And C. S. Lewis as well. Perhaps we should spin off a thread people who went on to become famous (or infamous), who were "down there", or, like Goering, up here with us! (Sorry about Goering's spelling - can't do the umlat!)