GalmOne

It's got a great James Bond feel to it. Very nice, thanks for sharing!

Hello, I took the F-4E (1972) up for a spin in SF2 Vietnam, and noticed it had slats (with no TISEO) for some reason. To my knowledge, 90% of 1972 F-4E's had hard wings. Weren't the only soft-wing F-4E's all Rivet Haste birds? Is there a mod for SF2 that'll give me a hard-wing F-4E with the long barrel Midas 4 gun upgrade? Thanks!

You guys are fantastic! I'll patiently wait for these awesome models. Thanks gents :)

Ah I see... I think this is what they did for the long barrel F-4E in WoV. I'll have to look around for a way to do this for the SF2 F-4E. This is awesome. Thanks! Now where to start looking...

Wow Sundowner! Tell me I can do that in SF2! I can't really find anything too concrete on the FakePilot method just yet, but wow, I'd like to recreate Chico!

The thing is whenever I've seen a Revell kit, I've never been impressed, so I guess the quality hasn't improved. The Japanese companies have the best kits nowadays. I'm planning on getting a 1/72 diecast Hobby Master phantom soon, painted as Chico the Gunfighter from the 366th TFW. Hopefully it won't be way too pricey. And if there were a hard-wing long barrel F-4E in-game, you can bet I'd have a skin for it in Chico's likeness. Thanks for the file Blade. I've seen that file before. I suppose I'd have to modify it somehow for SF2?

Those models look great! I assume Revell models were better back then than they are now?

It's pretty awesome! Just wondering because the Midas 4 hard wing is my favorite.

I've been reading a lot recently on Vietnam air combat and have found differing figures for the MiG-21 top speed at sea level, particularly the MiG-21F-13. Israel had received a MiG-21F-13 from an Iraqi defector. The US in turn received that same -21 from Israel then duly tested its capabilities in the HAVE Doughnut tests. They state that the fuel pump deficiencies and airframe design limited the maximum speed of the MiG-21F-13 to only 595 knots from sea level to 16000 feet. They say that at Ma = 0.93, the aircraft buffets severely: http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Documents/2010/June%202010/0610doughnut.pdf Other websites like the MILAVIA database state that the -21F-13's top speed was ~ 809 mph at sea level. If the MiG-21F-13 really had such limitations, how did this random "800+ mph" figure come from; calculations? Perhaps the Iraqi MiG-21F-13 was deficient and not reflective of other -21's of the same type? Did the North Vietnamese MiG-21F-13's perform the same as this Iraqi one?

Well that completely removes the issue of look-down shoot-down for the F-4. I heard that because there were problems with the development of a shoot-down capability for the APQ-120 caused the radar to enter service late and have no shoot-down capability anyway. With some adjusting, could the WSO at least distinguish some planes from the ground clutter? I.e. what if there was a MiG-21 about 1000' above SL and an F-4 is say, 2000' above it and say, 0.5 miles behind it. Could the WSO not adjust the gain of the antenna so as to only look around that range and avoid the ground clutter, or is there absolutely no way that an F-4D/E ever see a target below it?

Or perhaps the physical environment helped? Perhaps there are odd claims, I wouldn't be surprised. Here is the claim tally for Israel in October 1973: http://www.acig.org/...ticle_268.shtml and here it is from 67 to September 1973. http://www.acig.info...d=200&Itemid=47 Almost all of the confirmed kills are either listed as AIM-9 or 20mm kills on this site. Cross referencing with other texts have lead me to believe that this database is fairly accurate. Wow, it's really an understatement to say that the USAF changed tactics since then. Desert Storm must have been a world away from Vietnam both geographically and from a tactics perspective. If the US was capable of making a look-down shoot-down radar, why did the USAF not just get one too? I can only assume it's because radars back then didn't give sufficient situational awareness, regardless of being pulse-doppler or CW. Did the USAF APQ's have at the very least a slight look-down capability or did targets simply get completely lost in the clutter every single time?

Thanks, Gepard. I look forward to what these MiG pilots reveal. Toryu, that tactic sounds very interesting, and I think I remember reading about it. With that kind of tactic, chances of being spotted were minimal even if for the Doppler radar-equipped F-4J since the MiGs would probably attack from behind to give their Atolls more of a chance. However, the probability of a hit would be low, I believe.

Hey gents, I found this document concerning virtually every performance characteristic estimation of the MiG-21bis. Anyone have any ideas as to how valid it is? I think it's based on a sim, but I don't know which. It's quite in-depth, and when comparing it with the slatted F-4E P_s graphs that are readily available, turns out that the MiG-21bis has a slight advantage in ITR but is a tad worse in STR (from sea level - 15 000 ft) . It's a little slower at most altitudes compared to a non-slatted a.k.a. hard-wing F-4E. What I figure is that the planes are so closely matched it really will take a better pilot.... or a quick, working AIM-7 shot. http://www.scribd.com/doc/72843164/Natops-Flight-Manual-Mig-21bis

Hello! I'm having trouble using my drop tanks in SF2 Vietnam. Even when I load them (on any plane), the aircraft never draws fuel from them. Only my internal fuel drained as I fly, and when I drop my tanks, the number of pounds of fuel remains the same. Is there supposed to be a button to switch from internal to external tanks?

Hm it seems that if I start the mission from take-off, this happens. I started the missions near target and the glitch didn't happen. I'll reinstall, maybe it'll fix up.

I read somewhere that the radar sets on F-4J Phantom II's had to be adjusted to different frequencies all within the X-band, and that there were only 18 channels available (at least during certain ops) during the early 70's. This makes me wonder whether it was possible then to send up only a small number of planes together since they could all interfere or overload each other's radar sets. If this is the case, are later Cold War jets (like the F-14, F-15 etc.) limited to this as well? Here's the excerpt I found it from: from http://www.secretpro...php?topic=149.0

I looked it up and apparently under Operation Rivet Haste, a squadron of F-4E's entered service but found no MiG's according to F-4 Phantom II vs MiG-21: USAF & VPAF in the Vietnam War By Peter Davies

I've been playing flight sims for about 6 years now, and if there's anything I learned other than the physics behind aircraft performance, it's how a seemingly predictable fight can end very differently. Many times I've flown with my friends - all of whom I considered just as good in a dogfight as myself. We'd fly the same plane and shoot each other down at a 1:1 kill-death rate. Then we'd select different planes... and lo and behold, sometimes the lower performing plane would come out on top! Sometimes a Spitfire V would be beaten by a higher-performing but far worse turning Spitfire XVI in a turn fight simply because of the energy states that the pilots had by the end of the fight. Sometimes a Spitfire could catch an Me 262 who was still accelerating after leveling off from a climb. I completely understand and appreciate the value of analyzing air combat from a practical perspective, but when it comes down to my questions here, I'm simply asking about the most sterile, straight-up scientific performance figures. If only I could find an EM diagram of later MiG-21's like the -21PF and -21MF as well as the F-8E (which is lighter than the F-8H). Then I could really just overlap the diagrams and be done with the research lol.

The top end speed differences is relevant mainly because the difference is so large. This is generally an indication that though the faster plane may not accelerate or climb better, its top speed at any altitude will allow it to disengage... I'm not concerned with turning. The huge speed difference is like an Me262 vs. a Spitfire Mk.21. It's just such a massive difference, the faster plane should be able to disengage at will. I doubt there's any altitude at all where the Crusader won't be able to run from a MiG-19. Although I also believe if the Crusader gets slow enough, he's dead as the MiG-19 surely will accelerate better at low speeds. As much as I'd like to build a P_s graph, the most difficult parameters to get are the thrust and drag, as they either vary as a function of velocity and/or angle of attack. For now, I've just used wing loading and T/W ratio in addition to the HAVE Doughnut tests to build an estimation. And, like you said, a MiG-21's going to bleed a lot of speed, and a higher wing loading coupled with a slightly higher T/W ratio is unlikely to alleviate the problem.

True, well I found the link here since I haven't installed dropbox on this PC just yet. http://www.cwam.org/blog/aircraft/MiG-21/have-doughnut.pdf

Ohhh man, I've been looking for ages for an F-8 EM diagram, but someone once told me that the Navy never put them in their flight manuals! I'm also more concerned about the MiG-21MF since it seems to be the more definitive Vietnam era MiG-21. Also, check my post above. I'll keep looking for a link to that pdf.

When one does an experiment, one controls the variables. In the case of what I'm analyzing here, I do indeed mean 0 rate of climb or decent during the turn. The numbers I supplied should be at least enough evidence to put the F-8H (in the case mentioned) at favour. The same F-8 for example has a maximum speed advantage over a MiG-19 of about 160 mph at max speed. That's a HUGE difference and is certainly an advantage. Whether this means that the F-8 kills the MiG-19 with boom and zoom attacks or ends up slow and shot down by the MiG is irrelevant. I am simply looking for possible advantages that can be capitalized on. In all the configurations I mentioned, the aircraft are carrying just their 4 AAMs with no drop tanks. The charts in the book links I posted contains the weights and configurations of each plane. Of course, practically speaking maybe the MiG with full AAMs and drop tanks will meet an F-4 who has dropped all but his 4 AAMs. But how do we compare this situation? We can't say the F-4 is better in turn just because the F-4 pilot out-turns the MiG in this situation. I appreciate your reasoning though, and it makes me optimistic that pilot flying skill will decide this close of a fight instead of technology. EDIT: Lastly, MiGBuster, I have seen that powerpoint. I have found the ACTUAL report on HAVE Doughnut, but I can't find the link I downloaded it from and I don't know how to attach a PDF file greater than 1MB to this post.

Additionally, I found this book on the F-8 (http://www.scribd.co...Crusader-Part-1). On page 104, combat weight for the F-8H is 25,802 lbs. with a wing area of 375 sq. ft., the wing loading is 68.805 psf. Using the improved J57P-420 engine of a rate wet thrust of 19,500 lbf, the T/W ratio is 0.7596. For the MiG-21, I found this book (http://www.scribd.co...5/MiG21-Fishbed) on page 98, in which the MiG-21MF weighs 18,104 lbs. with a wing area of 247.6 sq. ft. yielding a wing loading of 73.118 psf. The maximum thrust afforded by its R-13-300 engine is 14,308 lbf. This yields a T/W ratio of 0.7903, giving it a small advantage over the F-8H. For the sake of comparison, the MiG-21F-13 has a normal loaded weight of 15,245 lbs., a wet thrust of 12,654 lbf from its R-11F-300 engine and the same wing area as the -21MF. This yields a wing loading of 61.571 psf and a T/W ratio of 0.8300. We know that both a lower wing loading and a higher thrust-to-weight ratio of the MiG-21F-13 will lead to better instantaneous and sustained turning rates, and - at the very least - better low speed acceleration. Although the MiG-21F-13 did have its speed-limiting problems under 16,000 ft (namely it's dynamic pressure limit which limited top speed to 595 kn) meant that some of its advantages over the MiG-21MF would not have been exploited. This really makes me believe that the MiG's going to be at some sort of disadvantage in the turning department against an F-8H, especially since the modifications on the F-8D to make it an F-8H put BLC on the flaps, just like the later MiGs.

I realize that I can't simply go by wing loading to determine turning capability. I based my assumptions off the HAVE Doughnut tests which indicate that the MiG-21F-13 has a better instantaneous turn rate than the F-4 or F-8 but bleeds speed more quickly. The MiG's wing loading is far lower than either. Chances are with a higher T/W ratio, the heavier MiG-21MF is able to bleed speed at a lower rate, but since it has an almost identical wing loading as the Crusader, it's unlikely to turn better. Perhaps equal in some situations, but I don't believe a delta wing aircraft, such as the MiG-21MF - can reliably out-turn an aircraft with a less severe sweep, leading edge flaps and a variable incidence wing with a similar wing loading - i.e. the F-8.

Ah yes, that's a more definitive MiG-21... the MiG-21MF. I'll go do my research on that. How would good pilots in the F-4E with slats and the F-8E/H fare against that version of the MiG? So far, I've found that the -21MF seems to be almost 3000 lbs heavier than the standard MiG-21S which raises its wingloading approximately equal to W/S ~ 20723 lbs/247.60 ft^3 = 83.695 psf. This is a huge value while the F-8's wingloading is around 66 psf. albeit I used the max. weight I could find for the MiG-21MF.