Fortiesboy

Well done Simon the only thing I can play is the Horses

"Thanks for the interest shown in this. We will upload a couple or more amended files for you guys to evaluate and comment on, but we will nevertheless battle on to finish creating a whole download which will use Prop-Wasches intermediate damage file ,with the altered threshold values that we think will give a "slightly more pyrotechnic " experience, in terms of effects. (Don't forget, you can play with the values in your own install - should give you something to do - lol ) That will take a little time, as we have to pass files between us and evaluate, then input the final files into every plane folder in the sim. In the meantime, when evaluating, and before you may think it too easy, may I say how I test these files. I fly in CFS3 QC, SE5a Viper is my plane. I use fair weather and start at 10000 ft. I set the Enemy skill to Ace, ( 1 v1 ) Enemy situation to normal and Enemy ground skill to rookie. Flak density to low. In workshops I have the flight model at Realistic with players guns at Normal. Main guns and rear guns at Normal. Wind and gun jams On The AI Gun Fire range at Easy ( i.e. close in ) Auto mixture On, aircraft stress On, Limited ammo on In flight I fly ALWAYS in cockpit; No HUD; no enemy pointer; NO labels For these test purpose only I use padlock - but in order to mainly assess the damage . I work it like this. Early on I padlock the Enemy plane. Then i press the padlock toggle button and fight in ordinary trackir cockpit mode. When i think I have damaged the enemy, I go to Player/target view ( via joystick button ) and then i can see the extent of the damage caused. If you find you shoot him down too easy, try giving him a wingman, and you stay on your own! IMHO, you versus the enemy and the wingman is about the S.A position that you are in at least in a campaign dogfight. Flown with no aids, this is not an easy sim. And flown like that, with damage and effect models similar to what Prop wasche and i are trying to create, you will be hard pushed to get your 17 hours. Mind you, having said that, I am a sometime campaign player- I use mostly QC. Winder- As for kill rates, although no expert, I see no reason why the threshold values which we decide on for Prop wasche's intermediate damage model, could not be used in your hardcore DM.? There should be different outcomes? "

Madmatt S! If I could come in here to explain our take on this. What we seem to see is that there is a situation reached, when the plane takes several bullet hits, that points are accrued so that the computer now regards that part of the plane to be damaged and/ or no longer working. E.g a wing. The differences between the Normal and hardcore damage models is determined by the points needed to reach that situation. ( Prop Wasches Intermediate DM is between the two !) So, when this situation is reached, the plane generally starts to go down because the computer doesn't regard the wing as working. Because it is another set of parameters, ( Threshold values ), that determine when the computer will SHOW the effect of the defunct wing, i.e it coming off or, splintered etc , then you won't see that happen - until the threshold values are reached as well. It is our opinion that the sim tends to allow the parts ( wings etc ) to be damaged and thus defunct, before the threshold values are reached. Thus many may see the planes go down intact.They are assumed to be damaged by the observer because of their behaviour, sinking down or spiralling down, but essentially always intact * The wings coming off and engines blowing up seem to observed only when the Break value and those just preceding it, is reached- and in the vanilla sim they are, IOHO, too high to be reached - in most cases, the plane has already gone down. We are trying to marry the two, so that the wing being defunct coincides with the wing splintering or coming off. * Of course, prior to the demise of the plane the observer ( you) may see bits fly off and smoke etc, this is because the threshold values which creates those effects is quite low, and thus is readily reached. For the adventurous among you, my earlier thread in the 3rd Party and Mods forum gives a step by step guide how you can vary the threshold values in the planes, one at a time. ( so just try one to fly in QC, for curiosity? ) You may or may not like the effects, but you choose the values thus you make it more or less "Arcade" , for want of a better word... certainly it makes a change. -lol The devs have kindly given permission for these files to be tinkered with - to be used obviously only on a personal basis and acknowledging that they are their files, of course, to be used only within OFF3, the greatest sim it has been my pleasure to fly. Prop- Wasches idea is to make a change to all the planes, QC and campaign , into one downloadable file which you can try if you wish. It is a WIP and may or may not be feasible, but we'll give it a try. It is our way of acknowledging this as the WWl sim that all the others must be measured against, and to try to make a contribution to it as a thank you for all the fun it has given us.

Yes , I look forward to comments and reviews. But I hope enough people tell Nequab? that their policy of being online at all times to play the sim will lose them many sales. I won't buy it under those circumstances, and nor will many others it seems. Every time someone at the Simhq site says the same thing, there are attempts by supporters, who wish for no negative comments of any kind, to try to shunt off the post/ thread as a so called DRM issue. Talk about fanboys! I speculate that their sales will not be as many as expected and so they will have to drop the online requirement. Frankly, that is my hope! - so that i can buy the sim and play it. It does look very good.

Is this why the " break" threshold value settings in the XDP files are at 100 , i.e very rarely attained, so that the EA plane goes down "dead" in one piece, thus avoiding the possibility of it "hanging about " ? If the values were made so that when damaged, the wings came off or planes exploded and broke up, is it felt that it would cause this physics-defying phenomena ? If so, then where i have modded the values - ( wings now coming off etc ) that has not really been my experience. I very very rarely have "suspended" bits of plane in the air. Certainly I experience more immersion with damage manifested, than with planes going down intact in every case.

Nor have I- well, to be more correct, maybe my understanding of it isn't the way it is. So, experts, please correct me if i'm wrong. But, looking at the history of this matter, IIRC a lot of folks, including me, thought that to be shot at, and hit, by the AI from distances of around 1000, wasn't on. Though the devs did think it was in line with their idea of making the sim "realistic". . Eventually this was made scaleable in workshops and the "Hard " mode was the original one; the "easy" one is where the AI does not fire till "close in " Exactly how far that is, i don't know, but from my observations they fire about 400 or so according to the labels. There has been some discussion as to whether these distances are in yards/metres or feet. And I having seen any official clarification on this. IMHO, if it is in either of the first or second, then 400 is still too near for WW1 planes to start firing at each other. Hence I play the "easy" setting.

This wonderful sim is almost completely there, now that the patches and the mods have come along. I know the devs are taking a well earned rest, and it may be nothing can or will be done, but i would love the sounds of the German planes to be altered. I find that the likes of the Dr1 and Fokker DV11 seem to run rough- or rather seem not to be running "full chat" on full throttle. This is reinforced by the Rev counters which show RPMs between 10 and 11 thou. I'm sure they were at least 12 on full throttle. I still can't make my mind up whether it is just sound not matching the speed or whether the plane should go a little faster or not? But is certainly doesn't sound 100 per cent to me. IIRC, there were alternative sounds made and issued for some phase 1 or 2 machines. Any chance of similar for phase 3? What we need is a sound chappie who comes up with alternate sounds which are authentic recording of the real or replica planes.- I can but dream I suppose.

Luftace, welcome to OFF and the forum. Make sure you look after yourself and your mates out there. Good luck

Hello, The Devs have very kindly given me permission to publish a step by step guide for folks to modify the damage modelling of the QC planes in your installations, so that you can create damage like wings coming off sooner, explosions sooner, leaking coolant and oil etc etc. For those of you that want to see more damage , here it is . Please note the disclaimers at the end. I have modified some of the aircraft files in my installation, and the devs have very kindly given me permission to show how it can be done by you to your aircraft files. You should appreciate that you do this at your own risk, and neither I nor the devs can be liable if your installation plays up- However, with the simple backup there should be no problem. Here is a step by step method of doing so. Using Windows Explorer, Open ( double click on it ) the OBD software folder in your C Drive. You will see many yellow folders, amongst the first of which is the "aircraft" folder. First thing to do is to back this up. Copy it to a location from which it can be retrieved if needed, preferably somewhere other than your C Drive. Having backed up the folder, now open it and you will see the folders for a lot of aircraft, most having several versions identified by a suffix such as AC1 , AC2 etc. Most of the planes will have a version with the suffix QC. I have taken this to mean it is the plane used in QC, the others I suppose are campaign planes. So, now open the folder for one of the QC planes, e.g Alb_Dlll. You will see some folders and several files. There is a file called a XDP file . Open it by right clicking on it. The menu may have an "Open with.." option. Choose that and Open it with Notepad. Scroll down the text to about a third of the way and you will see that there are several lines about Damage Boxes Several different parts of the plane are referred to and each has a value/figure after the words "Probability" and "points" E.g. elevator_cable" Probability="2" Points="11"/> It is my understanding that if you change these figures to a higher one, then there is more chance that your bullets may strike and damage that part of the plane. However, I haven't changed this part of the file - you may wish to do so, by what amount is up to you, but I wouldn't increase the figures too much. The part I have modified is lower down in the file where you see Damage Boxes and the words "Threshold levels" You will see that for each part of the plane there are several threshold level lines. The top line has a low value and by the time you get to the bottom line it will have a high level of 100. You can see roughly what each line refers to damage-wise effects, e.g debris etc , with the bottom line saying "break" So you can imagine that, say for a Right Wing, the soonest effect of damage, of debris, is achieved when your bullets cause the Threshold level value (e.g 30 ) to be reached. And so it progresses until you hopefully reach 100 and cause the last effect, which is "break." What I have found is that if I lower these values - then the effects, ( in this case, those affecting the wing )will happen sooner. I have put values, for example, of 10 all the way down through one of the features- wing, or fuel tank, or engine, etc and on playing the sim this damage to this component has happened after using not all my bullets! And this effect does not always happen too soon - there still remains a random factor. Because this seems to be a progessive build up of effects, I have found that the first values for a plane part, eg, again the wing, must always be lower than the last values, i.e the "break" one. If you find that the values of 10 are too easy- then choose higher ones, but again, always have the last value higher, or the same as, the first value. You can, of course, alter more than one feature, say right wing and fuel tank or whatever. depending on how vulnerable you want that plane to be. When you have finished your alterations go to File at the top and click on Save, then close by using Exit. Do NOT close by clicking on the top right X sign. Now,---- DO NOT MISS this bit.! Having saved and closed the XDP file, you will see in the aircraft folder some files, such as AIR file and Aircraft CFG file. One of the other files is called a BDP file. Right click on this file and delete it - Yes, delete it. Don't worry, next time you start OFF a new bdp file will be created. If you don't delete this bdp file after making your alterations to the XDP, then those alterations will not "Take". Now you can exit the aircraft folder , select another aircraft folder and make alerations to that xdp file, and so on, until as many as you want of the QC aircraft have been altered by you. You probably won't alter them all in the same manner- some the wings, some the coolant, some the engine etc etc. A couple of tips - If you do a wing, you will see there is a corresponding wing tip box as well. Do that also, because if you leave it unaltered, you don't want the computer thinking the wing tip is intact, if the wing is gone.!!! There is no reason why these alterations should not work on the tailplane stabilisers, but I haven't seen them fly off exactly but sometimes the plane has behaved as if they have - i.e crashed ! They probably work on the pilot, too. Have fun! Remember, these are still OBD's files - nothing you do to them means you can use them for gain, or in anyway contrary to the copyright . Make the alterations at your own risk - If you have a problem after making the alterations, then you can always put back the backed up original Aircraft folder- and you will be no worse off than you are now. Cheers.- enjoy the best combat flight sim there is. FB

Just to bump this thread, so that it may be considered by those wanting to see more effects of damage. I am pretty sure that this will work both in Hardcore damage model or the Normal damage model. Here is a little more explanation as to why i think effects of damage are not seen as often as some of us would like to see I have found that whether the enemy planes succomb to your guns later or sooner ( HardDM or Normal DM ), the planes still fall down intact. They are sustaining damage, yes, which is why they go down- but they are not showing the true extent of the damage- i.e wings coming off, explosions/fire. etc Altering the points value in the damage boxes will make damaging the planes easier or harder, of course, however, I have altered the threshold values so that when those points values are reached, (i.e the damage is inflicted,), the damage effect is also seen, as caused by the threshold values being reached also. It is my belief that if the points value of, say, the damage to the right wing is 52, then the plane will behave as if the right wing is destroyed/broken when 52 points is achieved. If, however, the damage threshold value for "break" of the wing is 100, then the "break" situation isn't going to be reached a lot of the time and the wing doesn't break off. I found that changing the threshold values to 52 or lower achieves having the wing come off most of the time. A reminder here- we are talking of the QC planes. Unless you want to amend ALL of them-Phew! cheers FB

James S! I'm sure that many who find Normal DM too easy, yet hardcore too hard will be happy with your option. You are to be congratulated for making an option which is easy to use. As you know, from the PMs passing between us, I have a slightly different take on the DM on OFF. I have found that I want to see more effects of the damage than just damaging the planes so that they fall out of the sky- intact. Hence, my tutorial elsewhere in this forum, for those who wish to see more "fireworks"!!-lol

6 Pups - quite a litter. Skill like that , you were born too late and in the wrong country. The jastas would have been clamouring for you!.

Don't know if it comes within the remit, but I find the sound at "full throttle" does not sound like full throttle- sounds as if it's running rough, or not at full revs. The rev counter of the DR1 shows it between 10 and 11. Isn't it supposed to produce more revs than that? The team did well to counteract what I experienced before BHAH - i.e if i got into a steep dive, i couldn't pull out! ( Mind you, the revs sounded high enough then -lol ) To me it seems to behave well enough, it's just that the sounds don't match the maneuvre, if I can put it that way.

There is no doubt that when you change graphics cards / or drivers that you have to go into the OFF3 config file and re do it to your tastes. I'm no expert , but I would think that if you went into workshops and the config file from there, that you could re do it. Perhaps someone really expert on this could do a brief step by step post for you to avoid a re install. I would wait for a short while - someone who knows for definite will post here for you.

In the recent thread, which was locked ( I found it somewhat amusing myself, and not at all nasty ), there was a sensible part which talked about how to get the sales of OFF increased. I was going to mention in there OFF and flight sims shows. In the UK there is now at least one flight sim show a year. I suspect there are quite a few in USA and maybe in Europe. These have declined in popularity, i know, over the last few years; but a lot of it may be because almost the only sim showing at the last couple I've been to was MS FSX. However, at one show, there was one other new sim showing - Black Shark. And it consistently had the largest group of punters looking at it. I think they weere meant to be interested in the motion chair used to fly it, or something like that, but what drew the punters was, no doubt, the sim. I have always considered that if OFF was the sim used to show off one or two of the hardware guys' products, then they would draw more interest ( If only as a change from FSX !)- Actually it would tap a well of curiosity, I'm sure, 'cos lots of these punters - and some exhibitors, haven't a clue what OFF is- in fact these seem to know little about anything other than FSX. My point is that where there is a flight sim show, there should OFF be also- if it can be arranged. I have bought hardware products from one or two of the regular British hardware exhibitors, and I can only think it might be worth an approach to one of them to show OFF next time instead of or as well as FSX.? And I can't think of a better way to publicise OFF than seeing it flown all day at a flight sim show. Just a suggestion to the Devs! to consider.

Slick - Congrats on the new system and welcome to OFF. FYI I have the same Intel i7 Quad core type processor and memory setup like you. I opted for the Windows XP so that my peripherals all worked as before. However, you may consider this- I had a difficulty with the mic of my headset not working, and it came down to the sound recorder of windows not working ( mic-wise ) with my Creative sound card. Turned out the MS knowledgebase gave an indication that the reason was the fact that XP was operating with more than 2 gigs of memory ! So it seems the XP together with the triple memory gave a problem.! Now, I got over this by using the realtek onboard sound instead of the creative soundcard. Using the realtek, the mic works fine. It may be that creative have soundcard drivers which get over the problem- don't know- I stuck with the realtek. And i don't know how important a mic is to you. But it's a thought. I would have expected MS to correct the problem, but i suppose they consider XP old hat now. HTH Cheers

Yes, excellent idea, erm -whatever it was... - Yes - coming Dear!

IIRC this has been there since phase 1. It went away for a while, now seems to be back? No big deal though.

Unless you are playing OFF online, why the need to be online whilst playing OFF in Single play? And if you are not online ( I pull the plug on my cable connection), then turn off the AV program and firewall temporarily, and shut down a load of other processes too - see the guide re Alacrity PC. When I played OFF on my internet PC, after i finished playing the sim, I would re boot and all the AV and firewall stuff would go back on, ready to go on the Net.

I think his name is Biggles. He's a bit superior you know, he even had some chap write books about him. Yea, like you said, he needs to turn off a few things and then vote again, IMHO. :yes:

QC for me in CFS3 QC, So can change the weather and the location and the flak, and if i survive, i can then find some ground targets to take out- then go home. For a cuppa!

I don't think anyone should be giving WM ideas like this Now that someone has, who is going to be the brave soul who downloads the next patch.....lol

LOL - With a projector you can always tell her you've bought a cinema for her. When you've stopped playing OFF, put a film DVD in the computer turn up the sound - and Voila! Her favourite films on the big screen. Don't forget the popcorn

AFAIK, I don't think the Devs ever made an official announcement on this one. If they did, then I missed it. I have recently again been checking the distances away that the enemy is when they open fire in dogfights, and it's around 400, even on the AI range easy setting. But it looks from their size etc that they are in yards! (400 + isn't, IMHO opinion a distance they would have fired from. Yards or feet. BTW )

A very good review. Comprehensive and fair.