Finally got my MC-2/B-8 stick grip!

[+streakeagle 871]

[Edit]

I finally got my MC-2/B-8 stick grip.

Despite using the stock number for an actual F-4 grip on eBay, it has the hand rest that was not present on F-4 grips.

It is definitely used, but has been restored to a nearly new condition.

I would have been happier without the hand rest, but the stick looks good and all the buttons work.

Now I have to figure out how I am going to use it :)

 

I have figured out how I am going to use it!

I got lucky, a guy on eBay is parting out his F-4 cockpit collection.

I can't afford to get the instrument panel, but look what I got:

 

It comes with everything but the stick grip, including the $100 metal connector lug that my stick grip doesn't have.

[/Edit]

 

I didn't want to draw the X-52 Pro thread any further off topic, so I started this one The more I re-read other people's experiences with Cougars, the less I want one. Too many quality control issues to risk that much money.

 

I am thinking about buying a B-8 stick grip to make my own realistic F-4 stick. The B-8 was used in many aircraft from the P-80 to the F-15A, so it is a good choice for playing Third Wire's Strike Fighters series games. If I decide to do that, I will probably use my X-45. If I make a mistake, no big deal since I mainly use my X-36. But if it works... the X-36 will get moved to the server and the X-45 will become primary. The stiff spring of the X-45 will be meaningless if I actually replicate the F-4 mechanical setup using metal piping and levers. The weight and leverage of the long stick will probably require supplemental springs to generate sufficient centering forces. If I wanted to go all-out, I could make the trim-hat 100% functional by connecting it to drive motors with fine worm-gears that would adjust the centering forces mechanically rather than via computer keys as on the real F-4, but I think I will be lazy and just map the hat switch to the pov hat, which also offers more flexibility if I don't want or need trim controls. I could use pneumatic pistons similar to the ones that hold open hatch-backs on cars to provide centering forces with a hydraulic feel when moving the stick... but once again, I am probably too lazy to do that initially.

 

Apparently it is pretty easy to get a B-8 stick grip:

 

Replicas with prices varying from $144 to $539 depending on the quality you want:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/gripspistolstick.html

 

Here is an actual PC joystick available:

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95025100.htm

 

A high-end military grade manufacturer:

http://www.guardian-electric.com/html/b_8_control_grip.htm

 

Not B-8s, but interesting industrial custom sticks:

http://www.daco.co.uk/html/custom_built_controllers.htm

 

Real ones for widely varying prices depending on condition (brand new is $235):

http://www.warbird-parts.com/invent/postwar.htm

 

The F-4 E-gress trainer (basically a complete cockpit on wheels for $2800!) is very tempting! But I don't have a place to put it and need the money for more important things including a baby boy due in December and finally getting my real pilot's license.

 

Looking at these prices for just grips with switches (no electronics) makes the Cougar look like a bargain, but these are for real aircraft which means the switches should be very reliable unlike many Cougars. I am leaning toward the brand new military grip for $235 if I decide to do this.

Edited January 24, 2008 by streakeagle

[Splash2 0]

Hey SE,

Man, did you see that throttle box w/wing sweep? Sweet!

 

Look at the throttle box

 

BTW,

I have a Cougar Uber2 NXT w/Hall Sensors and Simped F-16 pedals. It's a great setup, I love flying with them and so far no problems but a little expensive.

 

Sp2

[+streakeagle 871]

Yeah, I saw that throttle! It turns out it is harder (nearly impossible) to get a real throttle quadrant. I found C-130 and F-100 throttles online, but nothing even close to the F-4 throttle.

 

I am aware of the Cougar mods and how much they cost. Some people get lucky and it works out for them. Some go through multiple Cougars due to hardware failure problems and give up. For that kind of money, I would rather build my own since I really don't care for F-16 style joysticks and I have the skills and knowledge to do so.

 

CH sticks have a much better reputation for quality and longevity, but I can't see paying $300 for a stick and throttle only to have an F-16 stick configuration and a throttle layout I don't really want. The X-36 is much closer to what I want and I already have one :)

 

At one point I had a Top Gun Platinum which pretty much was a replica of the B-8. I loved the grip, button positions, and the fact that it was identical to the F-4 and F-15 sticks. However, the mechanicals were worthless. My main motivation for making a custom stick is a strong desire to replicate an F-4 cockpit. Unfortunately, what I want to do and what time, space, and money allow are two different things.

Edited September 10, 2006 by streakeagle

[Sky Captain 0]

Good luck, Streak! Hope to see the finished product.

 

(Btw, that Throttle Quad is hawt)

[+streakeagle 871]

I can't believe it. F-4 throttle sticks are available on e-bay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/F-4-Phantom-THROTTLE-C...1QQcmdZViewItem

Wish I had the cash :(

[Sokol1 0]

streakeagle

 

Loook this DIY joystick whit real Mig-23 Grip:

 

 

http://www.simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?...e=1#Post2164727

 

Gimbal of COTS joysticks is not suitable to built extended versions. You need to built a new one.

 

S!

 

Sokol1

[+streakeagle 871]

Ok, so having a baby slowed me down quite a bit both in time and money... but I have been working my butt off away from home and getting paid $30 per day per diem for food. If I ate $30 per day worth of food, I would be even fatter than I am now, so I am building up a fund for game controller stuff... I could get a Track IR 4 Pro, or a Saitek X-52 Pro, or whatever I want... I am on the hunt for an F-4 B-8. It doesn't have to be a real one... just identical in size, shape, functionality. Most B-8's have a hand rest at the bottom on the right side. The F-4's did not. So most of the B-8s available won't make me happy. I wish I had bid on the F-4 throttle levers and stick shaker (the box the B-8 is mounted on with the pinkie switch) I saw on e-Bay. I simply did not have the money to waste back then, but now I would do it. The throttle levers are nearly impossible to find and this was almost the complete mechanism except for the actual name-plate/panel mount with slots that the levers moved through. Ugh! I was stupid not to try to get it! Oh well. So do I simply get an old Thrustmaster for about $10 and mod it? or buy surplus for about $200 from the warbird shop that is close enough to my house to pick it up in person? Or patiently wait for another ebay opportunity? If I had a place to put it, I would sell my wife on gettiing the ejection trainer cockpit at the warbird shop for $3000. I could slowly buy real pane parts as they became available and convert it into a geniune F-4 cockpit.

 

I want my... I want my... I want my B-8 stick!

[DWCAce 19]

Which link had the throttle w/ wing swing?

[+streakeagle 871]

Daco had a military style throttle with wing-sweep lever:

http://www.daco.co.uk/html/custom_built_controllers.htm

 

Of course, you could get almost identical functionality out of the new Saitek throttle quadrant.

Edited September 6, 2007 by streakeagle

[+streakeagle 871]

I have contacted "warbirds parts and memorabilia" about getting a B-8... the owner is out of town right now (in Reno) but I will be getting one of the T-219 sealed units.

This is not the F-4 adaptation, but the generic B-8.

I am working out of town almost every week for a while, so I may end up having to wait awhile before I can pick this up in person (the owner laughed at the idea of shipping it since his business is so close to where I live).

Of course, I am watching eBay like a hawk looking for an F-4/F-15 B-8 in fair condition for a fair price.

[+streakeagle 871]

eBAy has an actual F-4 Phantom stick grip up for bid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=270179153372

 

It is in bad shape, but it is the real deal with no hand rest at the base.

MC-2 Grip Assembly Control, Aircraft. USAF 56C3002-1. NSN: 1680-00-064-5145

 

I have made a bid, if I don't win it, I will still get the one in Tampa, perhaps next week.

[+streakeagle 871]

The previous bidder exceeded what I was willing to pay for a grip in that condition.

So, I decided to get an X-52 Pro at half price for $100 from GoGamer.com and threw in the Pro Rudder Pedals for another $100.

With FedEx 2nd day shipping, the total was less than or equal to what I intend to spend on a "new" B-8 at the warbird parts place in Tampa.

[+streakeagle 871]

I went to the warbird parts place in Tampa to buy a B-8, but was disappointed to find out that the website is not up to date.

The only B-8 in stock was no where near new condition, but more importantly had a gun trigger that sticks.

I probably could have made it work, but it is easier to find a whole new stick in better condition than to get spare parts.

 

On the bright side, the X-52 Pro and Rudder Pedals I ordered from GoGamer.com arrive tomorrow afternoon.

[+streakeagle 871]

My wife has authorized me to purchase a "new" B-8.

I can go with an overhauled grip that is exactly the same stock number as the F-4 grip that just sold on e-Bay.

Or I can go with a brand new Otto grip for about the same price (over $500).

 

The original grip will be missing the $100+ threaded adapter used to connect it to control sticks.

The used one came with the adapter, so perhaps I should have bought it just for the adapter?

The Otto stick does not use the threaded adapter and can be sleeved to fit different size sticks, but is not the true F-4 grip since it has the hand rest on the right side.

However, the Otto sitck is brand new rather than overhauled.

Decisions, decisions...

[+streakeagle 871]

I am going with a condition "SV" (serviceable) part 1680-00-064-5145 from Space Coast IC, Inc. for $552.50 plus shipping.

This should be identical to the F-4 stick grip (no hand rest) but does not come with the cable adapter (at least another $100 for that part).

I don't get to see a pic of it, but SV is just one grade lower than "new".

I am sure all of the switches will work correctly, I just wonder how good it will look... for that price, I am hoping it looks new!

 

Now do I need to get the adapter?

I am suddenly wishing I had bid on the stick shaker box a few months back... would have made a very authentic F-4 stick.

[+streakeagle 871]

I finally got my MC-2/B-8 stick grip.

Despite using the stock number for an actual F-4 grip on eBay, it has the hand rest that was not present on F-4 grips.

It is definitely used, but has been restored to a nearly new condition.

I would have been happier without the hand rest, but the stick looks good and all the buttons work.

Now I have to figure out how I am going to use it :)

[M@GO LoBEL 0]

Please post photos of the thing!!

 

Do you know the functions of each pin in the conector?

[+streakeagle 871]

I got lucky, a guy on eBay is parting out his F-4 cockpit collection.

I can't afford to get the instrument panel, but look what I got:

 

It comes with everything but the stick grip, including the $100 metal connector lug that my stick grip doesn't have.

It is costing me $545 including shipping, which means I have now spent over $1,000 on a stupid stick.

I feel bad about spending so much money on something of such limited value.

But I have never wasted any money on cigarettes.

Very little money on alcohol (compared to most people I have known).

The only other things I have wasted money on besides flight related hobbies is 1980 Corvettes/gas, guns/bullets. and music/video.

Oh wait... that's actually quite a bit of money wasted and quite a bit more than the total money I have spent on PCs and flight sims.

The difference is CDs were $10 or $15 here and there, where PC/fllight simming tends to be $500 or $1,000 here and there.

Enough about the guilt I am feeling over blowing so much money on a hunk of metal...

 

Once I get this assembly, I need to mount it to a sheet of wood (or maybe a frame).

My X-45 is standing by to be mutilated to become the interface to the PC.

Since the X-45 has more buttons than the B-8 stick, I figure I can used the spare buttons to make an aux panel with armament and/or radar controls which use real knobs and switches.

Third Wire's weapon selection system of Next/Previous air-weapon doesn't match well with the F-4's missile station selector knob, but I could make a 2 position knob that would look like the F-4 panel, but really only activate Next Weapon and use the shift key to get previous weapon (rather than using 2 switches, so that I can have more functions).

So, I guess my project is going to consist of:

mounting the F-4 stick

interfacing the F-4 stick as much as possible with the X-45

adding a simulated instrument panel interfacing left over switches from the x-45 stick and placing the throttle in the correct position on the left arm

building a semi-scale replica of the F-4 ejection seat out of plywood

 

I don't have a whole lot of free time right now, but that is going to get better within a year or two.

I am changing jobs so that I don't have to travel so much, and once I move closer, won't have to waste as much time commuting.

Until I move, I will be losing 2 hours a day to commuting... yuck!

When I have been in town for my current job, home is only 25 or 30 minutes away, not 1 hour.

Once I get settled into my new job and get moved into a new home... I can see a future filled with delusions of being an F-4 pilot complete with a helmet, O2 mask, g-suit, and flight suit :)

Is there something wrong with me?

[+streakeagle 871]

I just thought of something... if the stick shaker still works, I need to figure out if there is a way to get a force-feedback signal to it.

Since the Saitek doesn't support force feedback, maybe I should get a stick that does?

 

Cheap solution: get a new rumble pad and use it to build my joystick rather than cutting up my x-45.

I just tried my wife's Saitek P2500... should do the trick :)

Edited January 25, 2008 by streakeagle

[+streakeagle 871]

I was dissecting the various joysticks around the house looking for the best solution to making my F-4 stick functional.

 

The rumble pad was the least suitable due to the way the sticks are made: little self-contained cubes with the joystick stubs sticking up.

To use these, I would have to make a mechanism to convert the turning of the roll tube into left/right motion and mix it with the back/forth motion of the pitch tube to move the joystick stub.

While I am sure someone knows how to do that very well, anything I could dream up would be too complicated, imprecise, etc.

 

The Saitek sticks (X-36 and X-45) are a pain in the butt to take apart, so I decided to leave them alone unless I had no other choice.

 

The Microsoft Sidewinder Precision 2 was easy to take apart and had the simplest possible mechanism: two separate pots for pitch and roll that were easily detached from the joystick gimble.

To make the F-4 stick, I need a pitch axis, roll axis, trigger switch, top thumb button, left thumb button, pinky button, 4-way hat, and autopilot disengage lever (on the stick shaker box just below the stick grip). So that is 2 analog axis inputs, 1 pov hat and 5 discrete button inputs. The Sidewinder easily meets this criteria. After analyzing the wire leads coming from the B-8 stick grip and comparing them to the switches on the Sidewinder circuit boards, I realized that I am going to need some interposing relays to isolate the switches from the B-8 so that they can be wired into the Sidewinder correctly (i.e. the trim switch on the B-8 has 4 contact leads and 1 common, but the Sidewinder needs a dedicated pair of leads for each switch for them to work properly). The hardest part is making the axis inputs work. I have an idea from my long past days of building radio control airplanes. I am going to use bell crank principles to link the two types of motion from the F-4 stick to the separate potentiometers of the Sidewinder.

 

For example, the roll tube will have a ball-joint stem coming out of the top that will be linked to a ball-joint tipped arm coming off the roll potentiometer. If the lengths from the rotation axis centers to the links is identical, the angular motion will be identical, which is exactly what I want. Alternatively, I can attach a wheel to the pot and place it adjacent to the roll tube so that the wheel turns with no slip whenever the roll tube turns. It might be hard to keep good contact with no slip, but the big advantage would be the ability to amplify the angular motion in a precise linear manner by simply using a wheel with a smaller diameter than the roll tube. This could be useful since the stick only swings 10 degrees to either side. The Sidewinder stick moved 20 degrees to either side. Attempting to do the same with the linked lever arms by using a shorter link arm on the pot will result in a non-linear response (i.e. the angular movement of the pot will not be directly proportional to the angular movement of the roll tube). The pitch axis will have to use the linked lever arm approach. Since the F-4 stick only moves forward 13 degrees and backwards 18 degrees, it may be necessary to use lever arms scaled to amplify the range of movement.

Edited February 3, 2008 by streakeagle

[+streakeagle 871]

I got the chance to win an F-4 grip with the amphenol adapter I need on eBay... and blew it.

I didn't set my max limit higher than my public bid... and got busy at work today.

At 7:30 am I was still the winner.

By 11:00 am I was a loser... by $5.

I couldn't afford to go much higher, but I might have jacked him up to $400 if I had been online at the time.

 

The guy who won it just wants the grip, so I may get the amphenol adapter from him.

But, I would have liked to have had the grip as well since it IS an F-4 grip with no hand rest at the base, unlike the one I bought.

At a minimum, I hope to get the full part number for the adapter from the buyer and/or seller so I can try to find one through the same supplier that got me my grip.

 

This is the only thing holding my project up.

I have the x and y axis working fine and just need to mount the grip and wire up the buttons.

[+streakeagle 871]

I just can't win :( All I want is a grip with the amphenol adapter so I can finish my project.

 

Last time, the grip was an actual F-4 grip in good condition, but with a bid limit of $300, I lost to a guy who bid $305 when the auction ended while I was as work.

 

This time, the grip didn't even look like an F-4 grip (it had the hand guard) and it look badly worn, but just to be safe, I raised my bid limit to $400.

I didn't want to spend more than $300 since I have learned the market well enough to know that it was worth at most $250.

I was outbid by someone in France at $405.

 

In a way, he saved me, otherwise I was paying at least $355 as a result of yesterday's bidding.

I hate to say it, but I think the guys who are using 3rd party tools to hold off on bidding at all until the last possible second are the smart ones.

They let some newbie think he is getting away with a good deal, then snatch a pretty good item at a pretty low price at the last second as the auction is closing.

 

Arghh!!! At this rate, I am never going to be able to finish this project the way I want to :(

If I had just bought the crappy looking grip with a sticky trigger for $250 I found nearby in Tampa, I would be doing great right now.

I held it in my hand and just couldn't see paying $250 for a grip I couldn't use since it needed some serious overhauling.

The guy selling it tried to tell me how the amphenol adapter alone was worth $125 on the street...

But I wouldn't listen and bought a virtually brand new refurbished grip that doesn't come with the adapter :(

[+streakeagle 871]

I finally won a B-8 with an amphenol adapter on eBay.

It looks like it is an F-4 grip.

If the wiring and switches are fully intact, then I should be able to bolt this baby on and move forward with my project right away.

If not, then I can mix and match with the other grip I bought to get one working with the adapter.

 

YEEEEE HAAAAA!!!

[+streakeagle 871]

Please post photos of the thing!!

 

Do you know the functions of each pin in the conector?

 

Now that I have a b-8 grip with the amphenol adapter, I can list the pin map based on the letters on the connector at the base of the grip:

A to E = Thumb Hat Left

B to E = Thumb Hat Down

C to E = Thumb Hat Right

D is unused

E = common for all Thumb Hat switches

F to K = Bottom Button (pinky switch)

G to R = Middle Button (side switch)

H to N = Trigger (pulled all the way in to the 2nd stage switch)

J is unused

L is unused

M is unused

P to E = Thumb Hat Up

S to T = Top Button (top switch next to thumb hat)

 

The trigger feels like it has a two-stage switch, but the first stage does not appear to be wired...

I ran out of time last night, but I will double-check again tonight to make sure the 1st stage isn't wired using a pair of the unused pins.

 

The wires I am using come from the stick shaker box below the grip, which has its own connector with a few more pins (and wires).

Two of the wires come from the nose-gear steering switch.

Meter indications show that the nose-gear steering switch is normally closed and opens when the switch is pressed.

 

I need to figure out how the stick shaker is wired and what kind of power it uses so that I can see if it is operational.

 

My dream of having an F-4 stick for flying on the PC is finally coming true after waiting so long, I can't believer it!

[+streakeagle 871]

While I don't have the buttons wired up yet, I have flown the F-4 in WoV and the feel of the stick is impressive...

Even without any kind of centering forces, I had no problems getting within the center deadband to maintain steady state flight.

When I move the stick, I get very fine and precise control.

It is amazing how much of a difference having the full shaft length makes compared to using the typical short grip on PC joysticks.

Here are some photos:

 

The entire project:

 

Detail of the mechanical interface between the stick and the Microsoft Sidewinder USB:

 

Closeup of the grip:

 

The wires for the buttons (I need terminals, relays, DIN rail, and a 24VDC powersupply to finish this part:

Edited June 8, 2008 by streakeagle