Blipping

[Guest IndioBlack]

Tailspinagain says:

"Hold on a minute. Having an engine start up by pushing a button in the cockpit of a WWI plane is TOTALLY unrealisitic. These planes didn't have onboard starters. "

 

I don't think that is correct. Isn't there a technique called "Blipping", where you switch the engine on and off again when you're flying ?

[mfzola 0]

Hello-

Yes, Indio, there was an ignition kill switch on at least those aircraft that used rotary engines, I think because of the way those engines were carburetted- you only had 100% power, so the 'kill' or 'blip' switch was used instead of throttling back to allow these aircraft to land, etc. I'm not sure just now whether or not all the aircraft engines of the time were set up the same way...

I think it would be WAY cool to have a blip switch in the sim- and then code it so that your engine wouldn't fire back up if you held the button down too long, to simulate not having enough momentum to restart. That would be a neat little feature, without having to go nuts with additional flight controls.

You think?

-Mike Z.

 

P.S. The only way to have a truly realistic engine start in a sim like this would be to 1)create a bunch of grease monkeys running around the aircraft, and then 2) program them to run up to your plane and pull the prop thru..... Something not worth the work, in my book..... -M.Z.

[+Tailspin 3]

Read my post again. WWI aircraft did not have an onboard starter. A blip switch is not a starter. It interupted the spark so the engine would not fire. It worked AFTER the engine was started. The pilot could not start the engines by pushing a button in the cockpit. In aircraft that used the blip switch the engine was restarted by the mechanical action of the wind spinning the prop. Just like the ground crew had to spin the prop to start it on the ground.

 

Hmmmm....Perhaps it was the momentum of the engine and not the force of the air that restarted the engine, probably makes more sense. Regardless it wasn't because the blip switch added any type of mechanical action to restart it.

Edited December 13, 2006 by TailspinAgain

[mfzola 0]

Don't get me wrong- you're absolutely right that there was no internal starter- I was merely addressing Indio's curiosity about the ignition kill switch and it's uses.

Momentum? Force of the air on the prop? Depending on the situation, a little of both, I'd suspect- let's say if you were on the ground, for instance, I would think that you'd be dependent on the momentum, especially when it comes to a spinning rotary engine, to allow a restart. If, on the other hand, you were airborne, with enough altitude to keep the nose down a little more to keep your airspeed up, the force of the air on the prop to keep it windmilling would help as well.

 

-Mike Z.

[+Tailspin 3]

Sorry Mike. I was directing my initial comments at Indio. I wasn't questioning your post. You got me thinking about the momentum vs. air flow thing and I agree. Kinda mixed up two answers in one place.

[Guest IndioBlack]

I'm finding this really interesting, because I know very little about WWI aircraft, and you people obviously know a lot more than I do.

 

I was getting my information from a handbook called "PRACTICAL FLYING - Complete course of Flying Instruction", written by Flight-Commander W.G.McMinnies, R.N. This book came as a a free bonus for purchasers of Empire Interactive's FLYING CORPS, and is an authentic reproduction of the original.

 

I'd just read a section marked THE ENGINE CONTROL where it describes how the pilot "will also find the ignition switch, which should have its "off" and "on" positions clearly marked. There is also a quaint series of drawings on page 33, which show different kinds of switches. There's one that looks like the old-fashioned domed light switch, where up is "on" and down is "off". And there's a variation of this one where the operation is lateral, so that left (which is nearest the head of the machine) is "on", whilst right is "off.

A very curious type of switch, is one which looks like a horizontal lozenge held between two vertical rods, upon which it appears to slide. At the uppermost travel it would be "on", and at it's lowest position, it would be "off". The most interesting variation, that looks the most familiar to Sim-users, is a push-button, described as a vertical "thumb switch on (the) top of the control rod".

 

The legend for the illustration says: "When the switch is 'on', the pilot or mechanic calls out 'contact'; in the 'off' position the phrase used is 'switch off'."

 

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that in starting the engine, the ignition switch would be moved to the "on" position, the pilot would call "on", and then somebody would spin the propellor.

 

I've deliberately left out the question of magneto switches and batteries, which just complicate our discussion, and which are rightly or wrongly modelled in the OVER FLANDERS FIELD add-on to CFS3. Here, to start the simulated Engine, you set your battery switch to "on", flip the magneto switch forward, and then press the ignition switch. As a sim pilot, you assume someone has been kind enough to spin the prop, much as you assume you are seated in a real aircraft.

 

Now First Eagles is clearly a Sim-lite, so it would be too much to ask that magnetos or batteries should be modelled. And in response to mfzola, neither should an animated character spinning your prop, especially when the latter hasn't appeared in any other WWI sims to this date.

However, for the purposes of immersion, one could see an argument for the inclusion of a key press that was the equivalent of the "ignition switch".

So once you were seated in your cockpit, in your simulated WWI session, you would press, move or flick whatever button, lever or switch you had designated as your "ignition switch", and yell out "contact". (If you have trouble in yelling out "contact", you really shouldn't be playing Sims.)

Then you would sit quietly as the simulator spun your prop for you (imagining that some guy out there was actually giving your prop a spin) and wait whilst the sound effects told you that your engine was coming to life.

 

At the end of the mission, assuming you survived, you would land the aircraft, taxy to a stop (taxying is described at length), and then presumably need to stop the engine, which in the book appears to require moving "the switch to 'off'."

 

Now if I've got any of this factual detail incorrect, or misinterpreted the terminology, or if indeed the book is in error, then I would appreciate any corrections from those of you who are experts in this field.

[mfzola 0]

TailspinAgain- No problem, no harm, no foul....

 

Indio- It sounds to me like you understood the procedure correctly. The pilot basically switches on to provide power to the ignition system, at which time someone pulls the prop thru. With a little luck, she fires up.

What a thought you had- voice-activated engine start- wow. If I understand you right, a button on the keyboard or joystick could toggle ignition on/off. To start the engine on the ground, you would toggle ignition on, then say "contact", at which time the engine would start turning and hopefully kick over... It's fairly simple, fairly realistic. And your right- if you can't yell 'contact'..... after all, we've all probably yelled something at our computers at some point, flying sims or otherwise..... (heh heh heh)

 

Mike Z.

[+Tailspin 3]

IMO its just as easy to pretend you've already done all that. Easier in fact, since nothing is required to be added to the sim. Anyway, this horse hasn't only been beaten to death, its had all its hide flailed off and the bones rendered into dust. Lets wait and see what TK does. Oh, and whats the old saying, Indio? "Its a good idea to check your fact before you hold court."

Edited December 13, 2006 by TailspinAgain

[mfzola 0]

Agreed- we wait and see what TK does.... In truth, the sim is just fine the way it is...... you're right- the subject of engine starts has been flogged quite a bit, hasn't it?

[Okland 0]

IMO its just as easy to pretend you've already done all that.

 

Kudos TS. Why didn't I think of that?

 

BTW, below is a genuine Bosch magneto switch used on the Gotha Bomber. If you want, print it out, cut it out and tape it to your monitor. It worked for me.

 

[+Tailspin 3]

Good idea Okland. (I just love that emoticon. )

[Guest IndioBlack]

Yes you are all perfectly correct in your negative attitudes. I was wrong to be too aspirational.

 

It is far better not to put any immersive features in a sim, just in case the improvements are appreciated by too many people.

 

Perhaps I can follow your lead now and suggest that in TK's next Sim he doesn't bother with engine sounds, since we can all make engine noises ourselves. Maybe we should do away with the aeroplanes too, since most console fans prefer running around with mouse-controlled guns, and they are definitely in a majority.

 

What's your current cave-painting project lads, another mammoth ?

 

But at least we've now proved that Tailspin was wrong about the starter switch, which is all I set out to do here.