+peter01 2 Posted March 3, 2007 Well, second time round.... Borda has given his ok to mod/make available his FMs for his great models, and Dagger has given the nod, so here's a new Fokker Eindecker IV Flight Model. For those that grabbed the first, please replace with this.... had a few days to reflect, and made some major changes to FM. I did this to add an early war German plane that could compete as opponents to the N11 & DH2s especially, as the original Eindeckers FMs were tough to fly in the original form, for me at least. I have redone the FM extensively, but of course very thankful to Borda for the base FM as a start. I have tested this against N11 and DH2 AIs , and in N11 against Eindecker AI, and the're good fights. I usually win, whichever play I fly, but its pretty close. However, thats me, I'd appreciate feedback, as am intending to do the Fokkers EIII and DIII as well, so want to get the balance right first. Some comments: Written and tested only for Hard FM - will be good as AI in normal, but climbs like a monkey in Normal mode, like most others. With a powerful engine its a good climber but not very nimble. Though accounts differ,its likely the Eindeckers were reasonable opponents, I have made it such if only from a game play perspective. Its an enjoyable plane to fly (probably unrealistic!!) but has quirks, and if stalled you will need to dive to get rid of the vibration that will continue for some time - didn't intend this intially, but seems fun, so left it... Seems a good AI opponent - AI climbs more realistically, doesn't slow down to a crawl Takes off is fine... it'll be a little jittery during/for a while after takeoff though. Climb is very good (probably was the best climber when it entered service mid 1916) Roll is okay, but eliminated ability to do a 360 degree roll (as it used wing warping, no ailerons, maybe realistic) Rudder perhaps a little better than it should be, done as such for a gameplay perspective (AI and player) Stalls around 32mph Top speed 105mph All feedback positive or negative, playability or FM, is welcome. Again, thanks toBorda for the great model, the original FM, and the permission to make the changes. FokkerEIV_DATA.txt Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Tailspin 3 Posted March 3, 2007 Thanks peter01. I haven't tried your FM yet but I'm glad the Eindeckers are getting a much needed FM tuneup. IMHO the way the AI flies them now they are waaayyy overmodeled. From what I could read, while they were superior to the observer/scouts of the the day they weren't that great in performance. The main advantage being the sychronized MG. The Eindeckers were no match for the Nieuports and DH-2 which drove them from the skies. Nieuport 11 Gustave Delage's answer to the Fokker menace was a scaled down version of the Nieuport 10 fighter. This small, lightly loaded sesquiplane (in fact, pilots called it Bébé) was not only faster than the Eindeckers, it could literally fly circles around the German design. The EIV was almost a complete failure... Fokker E.IV Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+TexMurphy 0 Posted March 3, 2007 what is the climbspeed with the rewrite?? also have you checked collision/extent point mappings? My guess is that they arnt done in the original file... Also have you calculated the EmptyInerita as that is the most important FM Stat... Tex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Alexander51 3 Posted March 3, 2007 Very cool! I'm off to take the EIV for a spin vs. N11 and Farmans. Thx mate <S> Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+HerGr 9 Posted March 4, 2007 THX for this "rewrite" peter01 Do you "rewrite" other planes by Bordafarm? /Fok D2&D3,E3/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+peter01 2 Posted March 5, 2007 (edited) Thanks Tailspin and Tex for replies, considering the points you raised.....maybe get back to you a little latter. HerGr, yes am thinking of doing these, certainly EIII. Everyone, can I get some feedback about how this plane performs against the allied planes? Is it too good, too hard? Tex has I think set the standard with the N11 and others, and I am trying to get some consistency where there is very little really yet. Its the main reason I''m doing this, Bortda's original FM was fine in itself. Just to let you know what I am considering, I am trialling some quirks for the plane so its more difficult/interesting to fly, and looking at making the EIII more maneovarable, slower climb, slower speed, easier to fly. Idea is to have two quite different aircraft - which is I think how it was. Also just like to apologise to Bortda ( Bortdafarm), its not Borda . Actually its a great ID, don't know why I got it wrong. Just not all there...dreaming of FMs.... Edited March 5, 2007 by peter01 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catch 81 Posted March 5, 2007 Cool Pete. Always appreciate your efforts to improve FM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+peter01 2 Posted March 6, 2007 (edited) Tex, Tailspin, Tex, I did do a new Inertia. As you say, it is fundamental to the FM. This Fokker EIV FM is actually completely new, nearly done from scratch - it took a day just to make it fly!!. Its not a tweak as such, minor or major. I did change some damage modelling, I'll look at your tips as well. Climb is about same/bit better than N11. Tailspin, you are right, the Fokker IV wasn't successful, just want to make it playable and fun as well. So tho turn and roll aren't great in this FM, climb is (historically correct). I might lower these slightly, but do want it competitive for both the player and as AI as well. If I can introduce some quirks that effect the player whilst not effecting either takeoff and AI so much, I might get something fun, realistic and competitive. Well, I can dream ........... Thanks again for feedback. Still after more, tho thankyou to those that PM'd me. Especially on how it competes against N11 Dh2 - take it for a spin, or end the "current" Fokker EIV scourge yourself ..... For those that aren't sure what to do with FokkerEIV_DATA file I have posted (its a text file, not allowed to post ini files in forums, so just putting in the right folder won't work), do the following: Make copy of your current FokkerEIV_DATA.ini file in the Object\Aircraft\FokkerEIV folder then open the one I have provided with Notepad, select "save as" in File Menu, then select "All types of files" in "Save as type" at bottom of Dialogue Box (not just text), and save over existing FokkerEIV_DATA.ini file in the Object\Aircraft\FokkerEIV folder folder. If you want to go back to original, delete the new one and rename the copy (usually "Copy of FokkerEIV_DATA.ini ) you made to FokkerEIV_DATA.ini. I hope this may help some.... Cheers Edited March 6, 2007 by peter01 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Tailspin 3 Posted March 6, 2007 peter01...Wasn't suggesting the model wasn't worth doing. I was just trying for some perspective on how the model performed and how the series was generally unstable and difficult to fly. As far as being competitive against the N11 or the DH-2...well...apparently it wasn't competitive at all. Thus the end of the Fokker Scourge. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+TexMurphy 0 Posted March 6, 2007 E3 should not outclimb N11. Ive not looked much but it seems to be hard to find climb rates of the E3 but looking at the power to mass relationships is a good indicator. As newtons second law stats f=ma which equals a = f/m where in a vaccum state (no drag) thrst equals f. Now we do have drag in the equation. Accelleration is more or less the same as climb. So we can look at this as a guiding star. E3 has 100 hp and weighs 500kg (empty). That is 0.2 power to mass. N11 has 80hp and weighs 320kg (empty). That is 0.25 power to mass. IF we cant find hard numbers on the E3s climb rate Id say it should be about 25% slower then the N11. That would mean N11 does sea level to 3000 meter in about 15 min, hence E3 should do about 2250 meter in 15min. Im not claiming these calculations to be correct... though its something based on something that fits the fact that the N11´s owned the E3´s enough to put the end to an era... Tex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+peter01 2 Posted March 6, 2007 (edited) Hi Tex, welcome back. Thanks for post. The plane is the Fokker EIV, not the EIII, I did this first because the pit is nicer in the EIV The EIII is progressing... I trialled the N11,Fokker EIV and current EIII (not finished tho) from takeoff to 1500ft: N11 2 min 07 secs EIV 1 min 51 secs EIII 2 min 21 secs As you can see I am using your N11 as the basis, feel you have set a reasonable standard for me to follow. Now, my testing probably isn't spot on, but its consistent. According to entries in Wikpedia, EIV climbs to 200om in 8 mins, and as you say, N11 climbs to 3000m in 15 mins. I agree about the EIII (cannot find climb rates either), my guesses seem to correlate to your calculations. I guess the problem I have with the EIV is it wasn't a success -its probably more to do with its timing (it was a design that had its day), and it was very hard to fly due to large engine - but if I put in the real climb rate it becomes competitive in FE, unless I make it a real handful to fly, but then again that doesn't effect the AI much. BTW the E3 weighs 399kg empty at the Aerodrome website - seems more correct eg, Wikpedia says EIV/EIII 466/500kg respectively whilst Aerodraome says 460/399kg. Given larger engine of EIV, I bellieve the latter figures. But as I said, I agree that E3 should not outclimb N11. Any comments welcome. Cheers Edited March 6, 2007 by peter01 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+Tailspin 3 Posted March 6, 2007 http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/...68/contents.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
+peter01 2 Posted March 7, 2007 (edited) Well here's a new Fokker EIII FM. Written for Hard Flight Mode. FokkerEIII_DATA.txt Some comments: Different FM to EIV....redone basics plus quite a bit.... Nice floaty feeling, at times (on roll, due to sideslip, just letting you know I added it ) Climb/performance done to fit in with current N11 done by Tex etc AI is both well behaved and a good opponent N11 Player will usually win even against Ace/Vet, tho could take a little time. E3 Player will usually lose to N11 Vet/Ace AI, but you can win (better yet, wait for some Fe2Bs/Moranes ) Hope you like it, let me know if you have any comments. BTW, if like me you appreciate the EIV pit, I have done a EIII late w/2 guns (increased weight, slightly slower climb) using EIII FM with EIV model. For those that want this data ini plus the other files needed once the original EIV folder is copied/renamed, I will be putting it with the other two Eindeckers data files in the download section in a week or so. As Bortda says "pick and mix to taste"............... Edited March 7, 2007 by peter01 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Firecage 1 Posted March 9, 2007 Nice work Pete... I have them both downloaded and I will try them out this weekend. Few clients had server crashes this week and im up to my ears in IT problems or I would do it sooner. This may solve some things for me in the plane fest... I will send ya a priv msg in CA in a few minutes. Gotta grab food and drinks for late nite of server rebuilding 8( ..... RL reallys gets in the way of my gaming Let me know which of borts planes your working on and I will set up a test folder for the plane fest and do some trials. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
