Flanker, Flanker, Flanker....

[+Typhoid 231]

Do you think 20 years ago a "enemy" built aircraft would get so much adoration (even if its performance was so vaunted)?

 

I think it more of having respect and appreciation for one's opponent.

 

The Flanker is a damn good airplane and is not a second to our first line aircraft. It is clearly a peer competitor that we spend a lot of time training to defeat precisely because it is a good aircraft. The Su-27 is every bit the equal of the F-15C.

 

the key will be training and tactics because the equipment, including the missiles, are roughly equal and in fact, the Flanker has been slightly ahead. the only real shortfall is the maintenance.

 

We have had the opportunity to fly against peer forces operating Flankers through the Su-30. As an USAF fighter general put it-

 

"when our guys fly our planes against their pilots flying their planes - we win. When our guys fly their planes against our guys flying our planes - their planes win." I discussed with a Topgun graduate and current F-18E pilot who would win in a SuperHornet vs advanced Flanker match up and after we got past who was the better trained and put it on equal pilot skils, he admitted that we would be "in some difficulty'.

 

Generally we have been playing catch-up with some of the air to air technology and that is about as far as I will go on that point.

 

Our guys went to play against the Indian AF flying Su-30's, and our F-15C's got whipped. soundly.

 

So in my humble opinion, its all about recognizing a good aircraft and potential opponent.

Edited March 22, 2007 by Typhoid

[Hawk MMS 0]

I think it more of having respect and appreciation for one's opponent.

 

The Flanker is a damn good airplane and is not a second to our first line aircraft. It is clearly a peer competitor that we spend a lot of time training to defeat precisely because it is a good aircraft. The Su-27 is every bit the equal of the F-15C.

 

the key will be training and tactics because the equipment, including the missiles, are roughly equal and in fact, the Flanker has been slightly ahead. the only real shortfall is the maintenance.

 

We have had the opportunity to fly against peer forces operating Flankers through the Su-30. As an USAF fighter general put it-

 

"when our guys fly our planes against their pilots flying their planes - we win. When our guys fly their planes against our guys flying our planes - their planes win." I discussed with a Topgun graduate and current F-18E pilot who would win in a SuperHornet vs advanced Flanker match up and after we got past who was the better trained and put it on equal pilot skils, he admitted that we would be "in some difficulty'.

 

Generally we have been playing catch-up with some of the air to air technology and that is about as far as I will go on that point.

 

Our guys went to play against the Indian AF flying Su-30's, and our F-15C's got whipped. soundly.

 

So in my humble opinion, its all about recognizing a good aircraft and potential opponent.

[Hawk MMS 0]

I understand that. my point was that in another time and a differnet geopolitical climate would all same people be so in to it. I think the nswer is a sound NO.

[JediMaster 451]

Hard to say. The MiG-25 was feared and respected before we found out its TRUE abilities, and it led to the F-15's creation.

The Su-27 and MiG-29 are only so well known and liked because of the fall of the USSR. Both were in service years before that time, but info about them was kept secret. I think it was 1989 or 1990 when they sent the Fulcrums to Paris or Farnborough and the world got a good look. The Flankers came soon after.

It's not solely our relations with Russia, but it is a big part of it.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

Hard to say. The MiG-25 was feared and respected before we found out its TRUE abilities, and it led to the F-15's creation.

The Su-27 and MiG-29 are only so well known and liked because of the fall of the USSR. Both were in service years before that time, but info about them was kept secret. I think it was 1989 or 1990 when they sent the Fulcrums to Paris or Farnborough and the world got a good look. The Flankers came soon after.

It's not solely our relations with Russia, but it is a big part of it.

 

But it was also a shock to western defence analysts because of the sudden advancement of the Mig-29 and Su-27 designs. These were designs that didn't just return thing to a state of parity, but temporarily surpassed western levels. Remember, Western agencies viewed Soviet R&D with a more than a little disdain and they viewed Soviet practices up until then as a game of catch up. I think it was a stark turning point of finally shedding that 50's style indoctrination of belittling one's opponents. It's a dangerous game and one that if played, is only a matter of time before you get screwed.

 

Our guys went to play against the Indian AF flying Su-30's, and our F-15C's got whipped. soundly.

I'm not too sure what to make of the Cope Thunder exercise (was it cope thunder? Can't remember). Was it simulated weapon systems too? I mean were the USAF Eagles whupped by the combination of Su-30 and Russian weapon systems, or was it more a focus on air combat manouvering? There are plently of people I work with who're openly disdainful of Russian AAMs, despite the performance capabilities of the R-73 and R-77, not to mention they never have anything remotely nice to say about the R-27 family. I'm just wondering if we're slipping back into our old ways here (in Oz).

Also, there was talk that the performance of the Indian Flankers was maybe talked up a bit (maybe as a means to secure more funding for the F-22) or that USAF combatants didn't "try" as hard as they could have. I mean, personally, I don't buy that the US pilots throttled back a bit simply going on my experience in dealing with yanks in the past; Very professional and willing to show off their skills at the drop of a hat . :yes: Plus, given all the hype about the Flanker being an Eagle Killer, I'd figure that would be a loss of face no one was willing to risk. I'm just curious if anyone else picked up on this or what your thoughts are.

(Disclaimer: Not trying to bait you US servicemen types, I have plenty of respect for you, your service records and your ability to put away the piss )

[+Typhoid 231]

But it was also a shock to western defence analysts because of the sudden advancement of the Mig-29 and Su-27 designs. These were designs that didn't just return thing to a state of parity, but temporarily surpassed western levels. Remember, Western agencies viewed Soviet R&D with a more than a little disdain and they viewed Soviet practices up until then as a game of catch up. I think it was a stark turning point of finally shedding that 50's style indoctrination of belittling one's opponents. It's a dangerous game and one that if played, is only a matter of time before you get screwed.

I'm not too sure what to make of the Cope Thunder exercise (was it cope thunder? Can't remember). Was it simulated weapon systems too? I mean were the USAF Eagles whupped by the combination of Su-30 and Russian weapon systems, or was it more a focus on air combat manouvering? There are plently of people I work with who're openly disdainful of Russian AAMs, despite the performance capabilities of the R-73 and R-77, not to mention they never have anything remotely nice to say about the R-27 family. I'm just wondering if we're slipping back into our old ways here (in Oz).

Also, there was talk that the performance of the Indian Flankers was maybe talked up a bit (maybe as a means to secure more funding for the F-22) or that USAF combatants didn't "try" as hard as they could have. I mean, personally, I don't buy that the US pilots throttled back a bit simply going on my experience in dealing with yanks in the past; Very professional and willing to show off their skills at the drop of a hat . :yes: Plus, given all the hype about the Flanker being an Eagle Killer, I'd figure that would be a loss of face no one was willing to risk. I'm just curious if anyone else picked up on this or what your thoughts are.

(Disclaimer: Not trying to bait you US servicemen types, I have plenty of respect for you, your service records and your ability to put away the piss )

 

well, I know something about that stuff. Cope Thunder is in the US of A, not overseas. The particular exercise was just one of several that we have had around the world with various participants flying Flankers and Fulcrums. And it is quite true that if you structure the exercise and ROE, you can drive any result that you want.

 

the bottom line is that those who have actually looked at the real stuff and done some un-biased analysis with the view of "how do we keep our guys from getting killed and make sure we kill the other guy instead" are not so blase about late model Russian designed stuff. Yes, its not all 10' tall, more like 5' 6". But our stuff is only about 5' 8" for the most part as well. The point being is that the late model Fulcrums are every bit as good as our late model Lawn Darts (Vipers) and Hornets while the late model Flankers are every bit as good as our Eagles and Strike Eagles. Our AMRAAM is better than their equivelant, but only because will reach out a bit further (we think), not because ours has a better seeker. It doesn't. And in the off-bore sight dog-fight IR missile, we have been playing catch up for several years.

 

What does this mean for those of us in the real world business of defense? It means we take these aircraft seriously as potential peers to our fielded force and work to improve our capabilties before we get a nasty surprise someday. What does it mean for people here who like realistic aviation sims? It means getting the latest and greatest 3D models to play a realistic simulation against a competitive threat that isn't just cannon fodder.

 

The Fulcrum and Flanker models here now and in development meet that.

[Guest Eject]

Sir, may I "contribute" my views on "Flanker mania" (fond of it I mean). Yes, the TNI-AU (InAF - Indonesian A.F.) owns, if I am not mistaken, only FOUR unit of the S(ukhoi)-27, while Malaysia has two squadrons, and India on the other hand has perhaps much more, including the Su-30.

 

Some two-thee years ago I read a report that India and perhaps the USAF and/or USN conducted a simulation dog-fights somewhere in India, yet, the US side was denied the luxury of deploying the AWACS. So, they the US side fightes in perhaps seveal F-16s, F-18s (USN) and the legendary and truly magnificent F-15s were compelled to dog-fight without the AWACS' help v the incoming "enemy's" fleet of Sukhois (India). The esult? The Indians fighter pilots TKO-ed the US side.

 

I personally still like vey much some of the US jet-fightes, mostly the very agile F-16s, and the Eagles...

 

Thank you sir.

[+lindr2 19]

[/color][/size]Questions:

Combat history?

 

KNOWN COMBAT RECORD: Eritrean-Ethiopian War (Ethiopia, 1998-2000)

 

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=47

 

they said: Russian mercenary, This is not a TRUE, it was VVS officers, same like Su-25T pilots, we confimed this fact in 2008, now they are OFFICIAL COMBAT VETERANS, MiG-29's were controlled by Ukranian officers, also not mercenaries. Aslo SU-25 & Su-255T with Russian pilots aboud destroes at leat two ukranian SA-6 sites (used ARM & cluster bombs)...

Edited September 7, 2009 by lindr2

[JediMaster 451]

How many 25Ts actually saw service? I seem to recall only a dozen or so were even built.

[rotarycrazy 4]

The flanker looks really good and I respect its capabilittyes, a well manteined flanker its a force to be respected, if you take into acount the video of red flak, acoording to the pilot the su-30mkI has some serius avantages over the f-15c in WVR as well as BVR

 

I think that is where the fever comes from, a plane that looks cool and its a good competitor to the US planes

[MacGalin 5]

My 2cents about ethiopia-eritrea war. Based on what i have read in monography of this war published in one of our aviation magazines.

 

While it certainly shown that flanker is very dangerous and capable aircraft, it also demonstrated some things about russian AAMs.

 

And while AA-11s were indeed as effective as advised, results scored by AA-10 missiles (and AA-10s were hyped up to unholy levels by some people, both real experts and "internet experts" )were very dissaponting. In combat use their performance was extremely poor. Both sides used them in relatively large amounts, and time after time they failed to hit. Its said that performance level was somewhere about vietnam era AIM-7Es. And its hard to blame it on pilots, since most of them on both sides were "imported" experts.

Edited September 10, 2009 by MacGalin

[Abhi 3]

the growing of indo-us relation ship has definately did a good for the USAF as it is now able to analyse russias most potent fighter.

 

the MKI ,a plane built according to customer requirements is well ahead of the F-15 in terms of maneuvering but if the F-15 is upgraded with advanced radar(AESA) it will become comparable to the sukhoi in BVR.the MKI has a greater advantage than russian sukhois as it can also use western weapons.

 

there are reports about rafael offering the latest python 5 to india.

 

well it is true that sukhoi and s-300 sams are much hyped by the russians.in reality both systems have never seen combat with an western adversary.

 

 

 

 

[+lindr2 19]

 

results scored by AA-10 missiles (and AA-10s were hyped up to unholy levels by some people, both real experts and "internet experts" )were very dissaponting. In combat use their performance was extremely poor. Both sides used them in relatively large amounts, and time after time they failed to hit. Its said that performance level was somewhere about vietnam era AIM-7Es. And its hard to blame it on pilots, since most of them on both sides were "imported" experts.

 

ERAF/Eritrea 25Feb1999 MiG-29A 2xR-27R MiG-23BN

EtAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 4xR-27R MiG-29A

EtAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S 2xR-27R MiG-29

EtAF/Ethiopia 25Feb1999 Su-27S R-73 MiG-29

ERAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 MiG-29A R-73 MiG-21MF/bis

ERAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 MiG-29A R-73 MiG-21MF/bis

EtAF/Eritrea 26Feb1999 Su-27S R-73 or 30mm MiG-29UB

EtAF/Ethiopia 18Mar1999 Su-27S 2xR-27R MiG-29A

EtAF/Ethiopia 18Mar1999 Su-27S 2xR-27R MiG-29A

EtAF/Ethiopia 16May2000 Su-27S 2xR-27R MiG-29A

EtAF/Eritrea 18May2000 MiG-29A 2xR-27R MiG-21MF/bis

EtAF/Eritrea 18May2000 MiG-29A 30mm MiG-21MF/bis

EtAF/Ethiopia 18May2000 Su-27S 2xR-73 MiG-29A

 

{According ACIG.org} http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=47

Edited September 12, 2009 by lindr2

[Guest Eject]

Hi USMC Hawker.

 

Surely you can not accuse me of being pro commie, being Israeli and all the time on your side.

 

I just like jetfighters and as someone has put it: I tend to look at them as airborn race cars.

 

To my eyes, the Flanker is a real handsome looking jet. no doubt a very good one to.

 

as for its record. you know what thay say? its us Israerlies that gave the Mirage its reputation.

 

Without us, Dasoult would have gone bankrupt.

 

What I'm trying to say is: try to imagine the Flanker wearing Israeli colors in the hands of our pilots.

 

This is it. its all I wanted to say.

 

SEMPER FI !!!

 

<S>

 

Are we all REAL pilots/fighters? Have anyone of us felt the rush of the air high above, at least 6K feet as I did years ago at around 240kms/hour diving towards the earth. We r NOTHING when compaared to those world-class fighters of both the East and West (including the very determined YOUNG, IAF pilots). I believe, most of us here just PLAYERS, good ones I hope. I am a novice here by this category. Yet, luckily, I have ever "dive-bombed" (we called it a bomb-out exit) from 4.5K feet after the 20s or so TNI-AU paratroopers had made the static jump from a mere 1.5K feet. So, I have had the real-life feeling os the rushing thin air.

 

Re the Flankers, I do not mean to be parroting, yet, I could not agree more with the Hon. Dave re the Flankers. Nothing compares, at least to me. The Indian A.F. have proved it in real-life air combat simulation with the US side. The US side, sorry to say about this fact: the US was kaput kaput kaput even tho they flew some of their F-15s and F-16s. Over India of course.

 

Further, the Russian birds, these Flankers could and will always can take-off and land on DIRT runways all over the world. No US jets can do the same.

 

Further, I saw in real-live demo, in East Java last year, our pilots flew four of them like crazy! Sideways, like a cutting dagger. And, like the Ruskie test pilots, they also did what I call a "falling leaf" mode -- in LOW speed. WOW!

 

In the game, in my WOE and WOI, I attempted the same manuver (spelling wrong). I did it over Libya and Timor! Again, no US made planes could do the same. However, I saw in U-Tube last year, the maker of the real good F-16s apparently tried to copy the mode. And the did it with the latest, enhanced F-16 which type I forgot. And BETTER v the Flankers! Like a merry go round, amazing feat. So, my American friends, do not dispair.

 

Lastly, in the hands of the IAF fighters, Go Knows what would happen IF IAF flew the Flankers. Remember RAID ON ENTTEBE (wrong spelling perhaps) in UGANDA years ago? Idi Amin the dictator kaput. The Issraeli commandoes with one the US-made Herc, was able to RTB making an unbeliable take-off and was airborne using only FIFTY -- I repeat -- FOFTY meters!!! They used 2 or four rocket boosters under the belly. Amazing man.... Yes, me too, Flanker lover (yet still enjoy flying the IAF Kurnass.... the flying tank!