Are the 2-seaters more aggressive now?

[Bandy 3]

Just flew a few RFC missions spanning 1916 to 18 in which the German 2 seaters (Whalfisch, DFW, and I think the Aviatik) seemed to fly very aggressively, acting most uncharacteristically like fighters than bombers or recon aircraft. In my experience I do not remember this happening to this level before, and have PM'd Peter about it to get his opinion.

 

While I certainly do not have a problem with more aggressive AI a/c (thank you Peter!!!), and I have flown 2-seaters in that manner myself with my back-against-the-wall, but it just seems out of place if they aggressively dogfight more often than not...

 

Has anyone else experienced this recently, or earlier? Unfortunately I do not remember if they were single missions, or early campaigns, or a combination. It may have something to do with the code in the mission-task given them, I don't know.

[+peter01 2]

Hi bandy,

 

Again, thanks for bringing this up.

 

Not 100% sure, but for DFW, it could be two things.

 

The Aircraft Role, which i changed (and not sure why!).

 

To change, replace two lines in [MissionData] at top of data.ini

 

PrimaryRoles=RECON,ARMED_RECON,CAS,STRIKE

SecondaryRoles=CAP,ESCORT

 

to

 

PrimaryRoles=RECON,ARMED_RECON,CAS,STRIKE

SecondaryRoles=

 

Other than above, the AI parameters for the Aviatik and DFWC5 have not been changed to make them more aggressive (i think, no longer 100% sure what is default). it may be possible to do the converse however and make what was happening in the game different by reducing default ai parameters for bombers by making them less aggressive. An obvious and powerful one is:

 

RollForGunAttack=1.0 -> 0.1 or so, or even 0.0 for say DFW (the default was probably 0.5 in aircraftobject.ini)

 

This will mean that they are less likely to "attack" you unless you are within a certain angle in front of them (the angle varies according to skill level in aircraftobject.ini). 0.1 is very small.

 

i'd guess that the Allied bombers/corps planes could be similar. that is i haven't made them more aggressive, but they could be made to be less so via RollForGunAttack=. Also true to for morane/pfalz 2-seaters. If they are ok presently, probably best to leave

 

i'd be very surprised if the Aviatik did attack: it is defined correctly and doesn't have a forward firing gun. But you could reduce the RollForGunAttack= as above also. i'd leave the Salmson as is, it was capable of fighting.

 

The Roland is different (as are PfalzB1 and Fokker B1): i've intentionally defined them as multirole, and they will fight as fighters (tho Roland for its time is not very capable). i'd assume in a mission, if they were on a bombing/recon mission, they would act as bomber/recon rather than taking on all comers, but i may be wrong.

 

Anyway, thanks for raising this, you a couple of other guys are great in finding issues, i wouldn't have found this one easily.

 

if others have views on 2-seater aggressiveness, how the 2-seaters are defined, please post.

 

i will make the above changes for the future, but will not update the current downloads at present. i have several other "fixes" so they are slowly adding up, but TK's addon can't be too far away..........

Edited October 16, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

IMHO changing the 2-seaters to take on all the mission types is a good idea and probably more authentic for the 1915-1916 time period.

[+christian59 8]

hello

 

in the 1915/17 it was common to think that multirole plane were the rule

 

after some time the role of pure fighter begin

 

2 seater fighter was for me a real thing

[Bandy 3]

I agree with you on the multi-tasking role of some of the 2-seaters from a historical perspective on some missions. But from a game perspective, it might not work out quite so well all the time if they are that aggressive more often than not.

 

I am not sure how the game decides on how a 2-seater will behave in a given situation/context/mission. Obviously primary and secondary roles will factor in as discussed. But if one encounters 2-seaters that should be on a bombing run, or observation mission, but instead turn and engage in a dogfight, then some element of the game is lost.

 

Many of the stories I've read about WWI aerial engagements involved a lone observation aircraft being pounced upon, then having to run like h_ll with the observer taking up his defensive weapon. Not sure what percent of engagements were of this type in reality (or whether it changed over time as mentioned), but I think it was likely pretty common throughout the war.

 

The thread was started because I noticed the German 2-seaters attacking all the time over 3-4 missions in a row. This may have been random chance, I'm not sure, but thought it weird enough to mention and see if others have had similar experiences.

[+peter01 2]

I'd say changing the RollForGunAttack value and the Aircraft role for the DFWC5 will ensure this plane does not act as a fighter. This may have been why you experienced what you did, ie, it was the DFWC5 undertaking a fighter role. And this particular plane shouldn't, as you stated in the first post. The Aviatik should be okay. I'll leave the Roland in a dual role - if you came across this, it may have been in fighter role?

 

More generally, if bombers assigned on bombing missions act as fighters (whether they are multi purpose or pure bombers), and also whether they have aggressive AI parameters or not, its a game issue.

 

But it doesn't hurt to reduce that aggressiveness via the RollForGunAttack It will reduce or eliminate them "deciding" to attack. They will still take evasive action etc.

 

I haven't really noticed the situation myself where bombers assigned on a bombing role actually start dogfighting myself, but perhaps others have? If so, let me know - there may be other things that can be done in the AI parameters in addition to reducing the RollForGunAttack value to minimise that.

[+peter01 2]

Hi bandy,

 

Again, thanks for bringing this up.

 

Not 100% sure, but for DFW, it could be two things.

 

The Aircraft Role, which i changed (and not sure why!).

 

To change, replace two lines in [MissionData] at top of data.ini

 

PrimaryRoles=RECON,ARMED_RECON,CAS,STRIKE

SecondaryRoles=CAP,ESCORT

 

to

 

PrimaryRoles=RECON,ARMED_RECON,CAS,STRIKE

SecondaryRoles=

 

 

Well on checking, I know now why I assigned the role values above - its how TK defined the DFW in the initial release. He changed it in the first patch.

 

As i said in a PM to you Bandy, i'm positive in the early days that the DFW did indeed behave like a fighter This is before all the third party addon planes, when there were only a few planes, so it was fairly obvious to me.

 

This may explain that, and I suspect TK changed it to address this, and probably why you (and me!) haven't seen it before my FMs (the first patch came out quickly).

 

So, thanks for pointing this out, and unless I hear more I'll assume changing the role will fix what you experienced. I will go ahead and reduce the rollforattack value when I update for planes such as the DFW, Aviatik, Be2d, Bregeut (? not sure), as its an additional measure to reduce their attempts at dogfighting....I don't think these should really do that.

 

Anyway, thanks again for raising it.....

Edited October 17, 2007 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

I'm pretty sure AI behaviour is dependent on mission types. Been flying a few different missions with the mission roles expanded. I ran a defensive patrol, which always is a fighter vs. fighter mission, and happened to get the Fokker BI as an opponent. It turned and manoeuvered like a fighter. Later I got the Fokker BI again on an intercept and they were in "bomber mode" and they behaved like bombers, staying in formation until the bomb run. I've yet to see a plane on a bombing mission breaking off and attacking. Thing is, with the roles expanded, you might get an Avaitik on an escort mission and they will fly like fighters. Like I said, I don't think this is a bad thing at least throughout 1915.

[+peter01 2]

I'm pretty sure AI behaviour is dependent on mission types. Been flying a few different missions with the mission roles expanded. I ran a defensive patrol, which always is a fighter vs. fighter mission, and happened to get the Fokker BI as an opponent. It turned and manoeuvered like a fighter. Later I got the Fokker BI again on an intercept and they were in "bomber mode" and they behaved like bombers, staying in formation until the bomb run. I've yet to see a plane on a bombing mission breaking off and attacking. Thing is, with the roles expanded, you might get an Avaitik on an escort mission and they will fly like fighters. Like I said, I don't think this is a bad thing at least throughout 1915.

 

Thanks Tailspin, i think that means all is right in the world and all that...............

 

The issue is then the DFW, and in its role in my FM as a fighter, surprised bandy (along with Roland maybe?, but that is defined intentionally as multirole)

 

Just a matter of changing the role for the DFW, it should never be a fighter

[Bandy 3]

I agree all is well...

 

Yes, I had a few very interesting missions vs. the Whalfisch recently (love that aircraft, the A-team mod, and the FM!!!), one of them with me in a DH2. Need I say more?

[+Tailspin 3]

Of course the two seaters shouldn't really be a match for a single seater in a dogfight. (This is, after all, how the Eindecker earned its reputation, IMHO. ) I don't think this is the case in the game. If it weren't for that damned rear gunner....

[+TexMurphy 0]

*looks around*

 

Hi guys.

 

Ive been kind of afk for a bit... took a ski trip built a camper van took a surf trip and suddenly it s oktober.. ;)

 

Anyways the subject of two seaters is one close to my heart. I love the two seaters and the gameplay potential they provide.

 

But before we get to that we need to consider a few things.

 

1. How where (historically) they actually used?

2. How could (historically) they have been used?

3 How can (gameplay wise) they be used?

 

These three questions dont have the same answer.

 

Also it differes from plane to plane.

 

But some of the two seaters could have been used as the "P-47s of ww1".

 

From a pure gameplay perspective using them that way is awsome. Ive made my self custom campaings where I fly a Salmson squadron and it has all roles assign to it. This is awsome because you get to bomb, fight, scout well everything and in a plane that does it all well. Plus it solves a game play issue with the very high damage guns, well not solves it but having just one makes life a bit harder.

 

That handles gameplay from the 2 seater pilots perspective.

 

AI is trickey. Setting all (well at least the ones with forward moutned guns) two seater squadrons to all mission types doesnt really solve the problem. The problem is with the non fighter mission ai. If a plane regardless of type is on a A2G mission then it will ignore enemies on A2A missions. So only way to get two seaters agressive is to have them run A2A missions and this becomes strange.

 

Another problem with having two seaters do Escort is that you can encounter situations where two seaters escort single seaters and that is some funkey poop.

 

But when you run into a flight of bombers escorted by two seaters then you have a fun mission ahead of you.

 

Tex

[Bandy 3]

I totally agree about the "funky poop"... It just seems wrong when it happens...

 

Ive made my self custom campaings where I fly a Salmson squadron and it has all roles assign to it. This is awsome because you get to bomb, fight, scout well everything and in a plane that does it all well.

 

I flew the Salmson in some really memorable missions a while ago, but was waiting around for a campaign with an option to fly them was offered, as I generally find the complexity/surprises of campaign missions to be much superior to flying single missions.

 

TexM, any chance you'd be willing to please share that campaign???

 

[+TexMurphy 0]

TexM, any chance you'd be willing to please share that campaign???

 

Maybe...

 

I dont mean that in the arrogant way of saying maybe but in the sence of "If I can find it".

 

Honestly I have no idea what state my FE install is in.

 

Tex

[Guest Alligator Devil]

But when you run into a flight of bombers escorted by two seaters then you have a fun mission ahead of you.

 

Tex

 

Yeah, i've flown some of thoses missions and the Walfisch is a deadly escort plane.

 

I also readed somewhere (i think it was at the aerodrome) that the Walfisch was also used for escort missions

 

Please Peter, don't change your Walfisch FM, i love thoses missions with your FMs

Edited October 18, 2007 by Alligator Devil

[+peter01 2]

Hey Tex, great to see you on forum and posting.

 

Don't fly campaigns that much myself presently due to time on other aspects of FE etc, but I'd say your right about 2-seaters, and making specific campaigns for them. It'd be the best way.

 

AD, no won't be changing Walfisch.

Edited October 20, 2007 by peter01