F-104 flight model

[mppd]

Did someone post an alternative F-104A flight model? Can't locate it thru search functions on the site. Can someone help?

 

Thanks,

Mike D.

[sparkomatic]

you mean one that acts like a missile with a man in it? thought so...

[mppd]

Cute...

No, seriously, I thought I saw a post of a different flight model that was not necessarily accurate, but felt better. Cannot locate it for the life of me. Did I imagine it?

Mike

[sparkomatic]

wasnt being silly...the real thing was called a "missile with a man in it"...fast, but turning was not really an option I guess...the one in the game seems a bit more maneuverable than that planform would suggest...is that what you are referring?

 

went looking through my SFP1 folder o'goodies as I thought there was something...have not found it yet...of course I did get interrupted by a nasty computer virus

 

seems like there were a few re-worked FM's back for SFP1...think it has been a while though

[Silverbolt]

the OTC FM is nice

its ascend like a rocket and is but hard to enter in a Dogfight!

[column5]

I've always felt like the stock F-104 FM was off somehow. Doesn't seem to have that missile-like performance.

[mppd]

I think you guys are off a bit. I have read some accounts that the airplane was not such a bad sort to fly, or in a fight. Yes it takes off and lands very fast, yes the preferred tactic is bounce-n-zoom, no it will not turn with a mig-17, etc. but despite the small wing area, the airplane actually flies pretty well (or so I've read). The missile with a man in it phrase I would think refers to its dynamic performance for the late 50s - unmatched thrust-to-weight for the time period, superb climb, and more airspeed than you knew what to do with...but to think that it was such a dog in a turning fight because of the planform - I do not think is historically accurate.

 

Hang fuel tanks on the wings and sling a couple of 750 lb bombs under it (as it was used out of Udorn in Southeast Asia) and it would probably fly like a truck. But in clean config with a couple of AIM-9Bs on the wingtips (as it was used for airfield defense at Da Nang) and by ADC at Westover, Hamilton, Webb and Homestead for point interception of incoming stuff from over water, I think that it was a serious interceptor. Also deployed to Europe during the Berlin Crisis and to Taiwan after the sabre rattling there.

 

Just my two cents worth. Thanks for the files search also by the way.

 

Mike

[sparkomatic]

wait a minute...what is it that you want?

[Kirsten]

I think you guys are off a bit. I have read some accounts that the airplane was not such a bad sort to fly, or in a fight. Yes it takes off and lands very fast, yes the preferred tactic is bounce-n-zoom, no it will not turn with a mig-17, etc. but despite the small wing area, the airplane actually flies pretty well (or so I've read). The missile with a man in it phrase I would think refers to its dynamic performance for the late 50s - unmatched thrust-to-weight for the time period, superb climb, and more airspeed than you knew what to do with...but to think that it was such a dog in a turning fight because of the planform - I do not think is historically accurate.

 

Hang fuel tanks on the wings and sling a couple of 750 lb bombs under it (as it was used out of Udorn in Southeast Asia) and it would probably fly like a truck. But in clean config with a couple of AIM-9Bs on the wingtips (as it was used for airfield defense at Da Nang) and by ADC at Westover, Hamilton, Webb and Homestead for point interception of incoming stuff from over water, I think that it was a serious interceptor. Also deployed to Europe during the Berlin Crisis and to Taiwan after the sabre rattling there.

 

Just my two cents worth. Thanks for the files search also by the way.

 

Mike

 

I very much agree with this. It's no news that the Starfighter in good hands was a formidable plane.

I modified the data.ini (wing) a long time ago with the AlphaStall at 16.24, the AlphaMax at 23.04 and the AlphaDepart at 24.99, which makes all the difference. (taken from the F104S)

But I like Baffmeisters FM for the F104G even better (File announcements 14-04-07).

A nice balanced handling, forcing you to make full use of the "combat manoeuvering flaps" which can be deployed up to 450 kts (!). Above those speeds the F104 would be able to pull up to 7.3G anyway.

I don't think the F104A had the combat flaps but changing the Alpha values as stated above (or somewhat less) will also work.

 

Good luck,

 

Derk

[hide86]

Just to point out a thing I found talking with a former F-104 pilot (he was my instructor at ITAF flight school in Latina, couple years ago...):

the tip tanks, believe it or not, added some lift to the wing structure, thus improving (a little) the 104's agility in sustained turns, although the roll rate was a little bit worse in that configuration for the increased weight and drag...

Just my two cents for the party, as someone said above...XD

[Kirsten]

The tiptanks acted as endplates against spanwise airflow over the wings. The F104 demo of the RNlAF always used wingtip launchrails to get the same effect,

 

Aju,

 

Derk

[sparkomatic]

same for the tip-rails on a Viper...

 

so you think it is accurate? Hmmm...the random mission in WOE pitted my 2x F-104G against 4xMi-24...obviously this was a perfect mix-match...but the fact that I was able to sustain a turn at 320 KIAS at 3000 should tell you that either I am remarkable (yes, I know) or else the model is too forgiving.

 

Note that the comment is "missile" and not "rocket" enormous difference there. And while it has stubby wings, that T-tail is not much smaller than the wings, which certainly lends to maneuverability

 

but you have your answer above, he found the link for you

[Kirsten]

same for the tip-rails on a Viper...

 

so you think it is accurate? Hmmm...the random mission in WOE pitted my 2x F-104G against 4xMi-24...obviously this was a perfect mix-match...but the fact that I was able to sustain a turn at 320 KIAS at 3000 should tell you that either I am remarkable (yes, I know) or else the model is too forgiving.

 

Note that the comment is "missile" and not "rocket" enormous difference there. And while it has stubby wings, that T-tail is not much smaller than the wings, which certainly lends to maneuverability

 

but you have your answer above, he found the link for you

 

How many G's at 320 kts at 3.000 ft and did you use the combat flaps ?

Part of the airshow routine was a 360 turn at 185 kts, 2 to 2.9G sustained, 60 to 70 degr. bank, at max Alpha and normally within the airfield perimeter (something nobody ever imagimed an F104 could do) so at 320 kts it should be able to do a bit better.....

 

Aju,

 

Derk