R-77 and Soviet AG missiles

[Canadair]

What are your impression?

I think that a PK of about 25% for R-77 is very low. I.E one out of 4 missiles hits. In the least this is what I get; any other impression and ideas?

And what about Kh-29 series? Still the hit ratio seems really poor to me

[+Dave]

What are your impression?

I think that a PK of about 25% for R-77 is very low. I.E one out of 4 missiles hits. In the least this is what I get; any other impression and ideas?

And what about Kh-29 series? Still the hit ratio seems really poor to me

 

That is Soviet missiles in general. They have a history of poor reliability. There is a good thread about over at the 3rd Wire Forum. Check it out, its got a good bit of info in it.

[Canadair]

That is Soviet missiles in general. They have a history of poor reliability. There is a good thread about over at the 3rd Wire Forum. Check it out, its got a good bit of info in it.

Checked the thrad, it was more about history than everything, I was looking into some data insights

[+Dave]

Checked the thrad, it was more about history than everything, I was looking into some data insights

 

 

I got mine tweaked to more real world values but I had to "research it".

[Canadair]

I got mine tweaked to more real world values but I had to "research it".

 

I know what you mean sigh; well should you feel like sharing...

[+Brain32]

My R-27, R-77 and especially R-73 kick @ss, I adjusted them also. Simply because...well theese are not Atol's we're talking about and original values were extremely low

[Canadair]

My R-27, R-77 and especially R-73 kick @ss, I adjusted them also. Simply because...well theese are not Atol's we're talking about and original values were extremely low

Brain do you feel like sharing your data?, especially of r-27 and r-77

[+Brain32]

Well I've set my values according to this thread: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...soviet+missiles

 

As for R-77 I simply used values that are very slightly worse than AIM-120C.

 

Beware one thing though, meeting a flight of Flankers or Fulcrums will not be clay pigeon shooting anymore. Like I already said somewhere I'm seriously worried even in F-15/16C

So far I do best in F-18/F-14 against Flankers but it's not easy even with F-23

[Vigilant]

The Wepons Pack Soviet missiles have a lot of flaws. As of the 60' and 70' types, most of them were almost direct copies of US missiles. So it makes sense to adjust them so.

R-3S = AIM-9B

R-13 = AIM-9E

R-23 = AIM-7E; R-23 has 25kg warhead (not 40kg)

Of course it took Soviet engineers some time to copy them. So adjust entry dates accordingly.

[kukulino]

That is Soviet missiles in general. They have a history of poor reliability. There is a good thread about over at the 3rd Wire Forum. Check it out, its got a good bit of info in it.

Well, there are some serious arguments in that thread. Bud we can find there funny arguments or really bad arguments too. I agree with Gepard in general. But this do not mean that russian missiles are incredible. But I think the same about western missiles too.

 

As I can see in that topic on thirdwire forum, in some posts, are russian missiles for "western world" for fun no for fight

 

So, if SFP1/WOV/WOE were made primary for fun with western fighters, I understand it. OK there is no problem with TKs focus on the allied side of the SFP1 series for me. I like SFP1 series as is too.

 

BUT I am Mig fan. So I try anything I can do to make "Red side" fighters and weapons closer to "real world" together with my friends (WIP Mig-21MA/R pack - together with my friend gerald14, Mig-23 HUD topic and community help with this pit; SM SPS-141 topic and model made by Fast Cargo for Mig-21 an Su-22/25 --- still WIP; Su-7 cokpit - edit Boopidoos Su-15 pit - I still waiting for Boopidoos reply on my mails; Mig-21/23 flares and chaffs topic and community help with this; Czechoslovak campaign and other projects which are very early WIPs or we - czech and slovak community - are starting work on them).

 

And here are hundrets CA members, much better in ini editing or modding than me, and which are working on more realistic "Red side" for SFP1 series (Marcfighters Su-27 is one of the best add ons for WOE, for example.)

Here are many "World language" communities which are working on their own mods.

 

Here are many members from states which armies are using Migs or SUs and russian weapons, espetially AA missiles. I am one of them. And I read topic about russian missiles of course. So arguments similar to this - look on AIM-9L and compare it with that s***t. Look on statistics, AIM-Xs shot hundrets planes... Ok, statistics are statistics. And according to statistics are western missiles much better. There are statisticcs and there is reality on other hand: UBI VERITAS EST? (It is gramaticaly right, I hope )

 

Russian AA missiles need corections. According to values for some russian missiles in weapons pack: R-23T is all apect (plus reduction warhead weight as Vigilant wrote), no Rear 180 Aspect. The same to R-60M and R-60MK for example. I can change it in my personal installs, no problem.

But what is needed is serious discusion about this missile problem. My english is not the best, so I hope you understand me.

Maybe new topic is needed for this problem.

Edited January 27, 2008 by kukulino

[FastCargo]

Actually, I don't think a dedicated discussion would do much good.

 

First, statistics can be misleading, especially by those quoting them.

 

Certain things aren't subject to debate because there are hard numbers for them (unclassified). Things like gimbal limits, FOV, etc.

 

What is subject to debate are reliability numbers, rejection capabilities, most of which are classified, and therefore, speculative.

 

And in the real world, depend on a multitude of factors (target and shooter factors, MX issues, updates, etc). The ONLY way to get reliable info on such things would be to test fire HUNDREDS of missiles in dozens of situations to get weighed averages.

 

That ain't going to happen.

 

I find debates like this are along the lines of 'Which is the best blah, blah, blah'. Ultimately all sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

FastCargo

[kukulino]

When I think "serious discusion" I mean make improvements in weapons pack values with which we can agree in general. R-60M/MK or R-23T as all aspect for example, as I wrote.

 

But I agree with you Fast Cargo and your opinion on "Which is the best blah, blah, blah" debate :yes:

[Vigilant]

You are absolutely right.

But if we can't make it "real", can't we make it more "balanced"?

Some Soviet waepons are underdone and some US are overdone. Yes, Soviet hardware was generally inferior to Western. But was it that bad?

Example: 8 Mig-23MFs vs. 2 F-15As. Results: 6 Floggers lost, 1 F-15 shot down. It was all in close up (not BVR) dogfight, no SAMs, AAA, or other aircraft.

[gerald14]

I did my "own" improved weapons for Russia and etc. One example is the R-13M1 Atoll data I had in the bis pack.

This data is for my own use not for the public. So please don't be asking it is easy to do it on your own, it just takes time.

[+Dave]

Example: 8 Mig-23MFs vs. 2 F-15As. Results: 6 Floggers lost, 1 F-15 shot down.

You are talking in game right?

 

But was it that bad?

 

Yes, data speaks for itself.

 

Now if you all wanted to extract all the data for Soviet missles, post it in a thread, then we all gather some sort of data, come to an agreement and do a Soviet weps pack with corrected values, I am all for it.

[Vigilant]

Yes, data speaks for itself.

 

In real world such result is affected by number of other factors. Sirian pilots flying blind into IDF AWACS contolled fighters. Hell, 30:1 is too low. Here you have 2 sets of same AIs using same tactics.

So factors like pilot skill (and personnel skill in general), tactics, doctrines, etc. play no role. Its machine vs. machine. Comparison to 8 F-4s vs 2 F-15 would be very interesting.

 

Now if you all wanted to extract all the data for Soviet missles, post it in a thread, then we all gather some sort of data, come to an agreement and do a Soviet weps pack with corrected values, I am all for it.

Yes, exactly that.

[kukulino]

Now if you all wanted to extract all the data for Soviet missles, post it in a thread, then we all gather some sort of data, come to an agreement and do a Soviet weps pack with corrected values, I am all for it.

I agree too. I started new topic about that: http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?showt...t=0#entry125400

[sparkomatic]

You have the weapon editor, if you dont like it...research it yourself and go plug in numbers until something different happens...

 

But know this, the people who put together the weapons pack researched it ad nausea and if you do not like it, then make your own, but please refrain from "I question the quality of your work, especially since I did not pay for it, but am going to criticize it on an Internet forum even though I have no contradictory proof myself"

 

go ahead, get mad...

[+Brain32]

Sparkomatic you are not over reacting, you are super over reacting. Ok I understand you are an "old timer" here and I'm here for about 8 months, but some things that you speak of as if they are a rule, are now an exception.

A couple of us found an oddity and are willing to research it in hope to make it even better for all of us and you mention flame wars, unsupported critics and going mad, WTF????

 

Do you maybe miss the kind of guys you keep talking about? Nobody to fight?

[sparkomatic]

:cray:

 

I need a hug...any takers?

[+Brain32]

Well it's my fault so here you go

[sparkomatic]

 

thanks! see, glasnost works!

 

you know...I have just seen this discussion a few times before, and it has,in the past, not gone well...maybe this time will be different...

[kukulino]

You are right sparkomatic: I have weapon editor, and I can edit missiles for my personall use.

 

I newer said: Weapons pack is bad. I do not participated on this great weapons pack. So how can I say: This is not good?!

 

As I wrote in new Soviet weapons pack project, I found some problems in missile values, that is all. And there is example: R-23T.

So imagine: you have AIM-9L and you can not fire it as all aspect. OK, you can edit its data. We all know, that Lima is all aspect. So, your edit will be named - Correction, or correct values. AIM-9L must be all aspect, becouse it is all aspect missile in the fact.

 

R-23T is IR missile. I can not fire it in head to head position. OK, I can edit its data. I want say it to community --- R-23T is all aspect. Why? Because R-23T is all aspect in the fact. So this is negative criticism? No! It is correction. Or if you want - possitive criticizm.

 

R-23T is not all aspect because I said it. It is big rocket, and I can not compare it with AIM-9L. They are two very, very different missiles. If there are different info about R-23T somewhere, share with us, please.

 

If I want good info, I will write to pilot, which fired these rockets in the fact. No, he is not fighter ace with many air kills. But he can say me: Yes, I can fire R-23T head to head. Or: No ,I can not fire R-23T head to head. So, I need time to contact him. I have read about R-23T that it is possible fire it in head to head position. So if pilot say NO, I will apologize to you all.

 

Soviet weapons pack project is not my own fun. This is not: kukulino starts topic, oh let's go make it. We want to centralize informations about soviet missiles in one topic, and than we can talk about changes, IF THEY ARE NEEDED.

Edited January 28, 2008 by kukulino

[+Brain32]

OK,OK, now that we digested that, does anybody know where were the values for missiles in wep editor explained? We can't search for data if we don't know what those values mean

 

I scanned through Knowledge base, and searched GD and MD subforums...my head hurts...

[kukulino]

I have the same knowledge about many missile values specifications

 

So I hope for help from modders or .ini gurus, if we want make right corrections.

There are just a few posts in the new pack threat. Need time to get better knowledge for community about this project.

 

We need xxxx tons info like photos - for skins and notices on missiles bodies.

And parametres too.

 

To sparkomatic: we both flaming for right ideas, I think

Edited January 28, 2008 by kukulino