Are there any Electro-Optical or other type of warning sytems to counter heat seeking missiles?

[SkyStrike 15]

Dear All,

 

This is a question I should have asked a long time back... in the TW sims the RWR sounds an alert when a radar-guided missile is launched at me but there is no such alert prior to when a heat-seeker is launched at me... This can prove to be very disastrous when I don't have a wingman to alert me....

 

Are there any ways of incorporating Electro-optical warning systems or similar warning systems to player aircraft in order to alert the player in case of incoming heat seeking missiles?

Edited September 16, 2008 by Tomcat_ace

[MigBuster 2,884]

Sensors that detect IR missiles are things only relevent to last 5-8 years (if that) or so AFAIK

 

Adding such a thing to older jets would probably be cheating - so you may as well use external views to check nothing is creeping up on you.

 

Dont fly in a straight line if faced with AA-2 armed Migs for too long - If you have stuck in MANPADS release flares and jink a lot when over defended areas.

Edited September 16, 2008 by MigBuster

[SkyStrike 15]

Sensors that detect IR missiles are things only relevent to last 5-8 years (if that) or so AFAIK

 

Adding such a thing to older jets would probably be cheating - so you may as well use external views to check nothing is creeping up on you.

 

Dont fly in a straight line if faced with AA-2 armed Migs for too long - If you have stuck in MANPADS release flares and jink a lot when over defended areas.

 

 

Thanks for your reply,

 

I understand your point, but what I was referring to is the later jets, particularly the add-on ones like the F-22, EF2000, Gripen and others.... can such sensors be added on to these aircraft?

[+ST0RM 145]

I dont believe a MWS for an IR threat is possible yet. The issue being with the missile itself in that it doesnt give off any "warning" that it's fired, other than your wingman callouts.

 

Nice idea though. It could be just an ini tweak that hasnt been looked at/for.

 

Storm

[SkyStrike 15]

I dont believe a MWS for an IR threat is possible yet. The issue being with the missile itself in that it doesnt give off any "warning" that it's fired, other than your wingman callouts.

 

Nice idea though. It could be just an ini tweak that hasnt been looked at/for.

 

Storm

 

Thanks for the reply... but don't Electro-optical sesors detect the infrared energy given off by an incoming heat seeking missile or something like that? please correct me if i'm wrong....

[MigBuster 2,884]

You would think that it would be possible to detect and track the heat IR/UV energy given off from a missiles engines.

 

Not sure how far it would go - you would need some kind of range finder or radar to give the distance and altitude of the incoming.

 

Theres a bit about similar systems here: http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/defences.html

 

even has a Laser Warning Receiver!

 

 

theres no doubt more on the net somewhere too

[+ST0RM 145]

Some do and some dont. It's more of a broad catagory. Especially in these sims. There are ones that are used as an IRST/FLIR and other that are used for guidance, like on the Maverick.

 

I think the trick would be to add something to the IR missiles that the RWR would read and alert you.

 

Storm

[Fubar512 1,350]

The short answer is "NO".

 

The full explanation:

 

There is no provision for tracking weapons, as they have no RCS or heat signature values assigned to them. Active homing missiles, however, can be tracked by their Radar emissions on your RWR (if they're homing in on you). Unfortunately, you won't be able to differentiate the missile's radar from the launch platform's radar, as the threat icon and threat warning tone would be the same for both.

 

Keep in mind that the original scope of the series was 50s-70s era air combat.

[SkyStrike 15]

What I was referring to is that such sensors would detect an incoming heat seeking missile based on IR emissions given off by the missile's guidance system or seeker head and perhaps its exhaust as someone mentioned earlier ....

Please have a look at this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directional_I...ounter_Measures

[MigBuster 2,884]

What I was referring to is that such sensors would detect an incoming heat seeking missile based on IR emissions given off by the missile's guidance system or seeker head and perhaps its exhaust as someone mentioned earlier ....

Please have a look at this:

 

An IR missile seeker doesnt give off any IR emisions AFAIK - thats the problem. An IR missile can just "see" the heat energy given off by the aircraft - and it just follows that - it doesnt need to hit the target with any energy. Hence the only way to track it is via an advanced radar or by tracking the heat given off from the missiles engines.

 

I think Helicopters have had IR turrets for years - one method seems to be firing a laser at the incoming missiles seeker head to confuse it. How well they work im not sure - quite a few choppers were had by MANPADs in Iraq - but not sure if they had these counter measures - or if they upgraded them to prevent more shoot downs, or the Insurgents just ran out of missiles.

 

Now the DICM may only work well on slow moving A/C - or they may just think that Jets are better off staying above the MANPAD operational altitude instead - who knows but they dont seem to be outfitting fighters with them yet AFAIK.

 

IRs main disadvantage is that its performance depends on the environment its operating in - ie not good looking through clouds etc.

 

However best way to avoid modern IR missiles is probably to stay out of range.

[SayethWhaaaa 245]

When i hear "he's firing a missile" that's usually my cue to punch flares.

 

Heh, me too, although it's invariably one of my wingmen who's miles away getting shot at!

 

Tomcat, do you mean like the warning system in Jet Fighter: Full Burn where your defensive suite identifies and warns you of what type of AAM (IR or AH/SAHM) is fired at you?

[Fubar512 1,350]

MiGBuster is correct, IR seekers & IRSTs are passive systems that rely on super-cooled optics to detect the infrared emissions given off by hot engines and aerodynamic surfaces. As such, their use is undetectable.

 

Missile warning systems either incorporate small Doppler radars that "see" the approaching missile, or they're equipped with flash detectors, which (as the name implies) detect the flash of a missile launch.

[SkyStrike 15]

Tomcat, do you mean like the warning system in Jet Fighter: Full Burn where your defensive suite identifies and warns you of what type of AAM (IR or AH/SAHM) is fired at you?

 

Well Not exactly.... I was referring to something like the missile warning systems in sims like

Jane's USAF... where there's a missile warning tone whenever there's a missile (either IR or radar guided) fired at the player....

[+ST0RM 145]

Well Not exactly.... I was referring to something like the missile warning systems in sims like

Jane's USAF... where there's a missile warning tone whenever there's a missile (either IR or radar guided) fired at the player....

 

USAF was an even lighter sim than these, so I'd take alot of what was in those games with a tablespoon of salt, so to speak.

 

Currently, it's just not possible in this sim. Check back next week though, as new things are always being found that previously were impossible.

[SkyStrike 15]

The keywords "Electro Optical Missile Warning Systems" during a Google search turns up quite a lot of info regarding the subject....

[MigBuster 2,884]

The keywords "Electro Optical Missile Warning Systems" during a Google search turns up quite a lot of info regarding the subject....

 

Well if you find any instructions from TK on how to implement one in this series for Jets in service after 2007 then please let us know.

 

If there is a way to simulate it then it hasnt been done yet - not too bothered myself because I rarely go past 1982 - and Im not holding my breath that TK would put something in that is 20 or so years out of the series scope.

[MiGMasher 0]

Sensors that detect IR missiles are things only relevent to last 5-8 years (if that) or so AFAIK

 

Adding such a thing to older jets would probably be cheating - so you may as well use external views to check nothing is creeping up on you.

 

Dont fly in a straight line if faced with AA-2 armed Migs for too long - If you have stuck in MANPADS release flares and jink a lot when over defended areas.

 

In real settings the F-111 was equiped with an early, but crude version of a IR warning sensor system, but it really only detected the exhaust plumes of the missiles themselves. It would be interesting to have that duplicated in Strike Fighters.

[SkyStrike 15]

In real settings the F-111 was equiped with an early, but crude version of a IR warning sensor system, but it really only detected the exhaust plumes of the missiles themselves. It would be interesting to have that duplicated in Strike Fighters.

 

Interesting....

 

Tell me one thing; are those glazed panels on the nose of the F-4 in your previous post part of such a system....

Edited September 24, 2008 by Tomcat_ace

[SkyStrike 15]

Well if you find any instructions from TK on how to implement one in this series for Jets in service after 2007 then please let us know.

 

Well...You don't have to be so sarcastic....

[MigBuster 2,884]

In real settings the F-111 was equiped with an early, but crude version of a IR warning sensor system, but it really only detected the exhaust plumes of the missiles themselves. It would be interesting to have that duplicated in Strike Fighters.

 

Excellent - do you have any more info on this - such as the year it was tested or your source for this info?

[MigBuster 2,884]

Well...You don't have to be so sarcastic....

 

Sorry wasnt sure what you were getting at with the comment on there being loads of info on the net - when I had posted a similar thing about 5 posts up.

[SkyStrike 15]

Sorry wasnt sure what you were getting at with the comment on there being loads of info on the net - when I had posted a similar thing about 5 posts up.

 

No Issues...What I actually meant to say that there are some Elecro optical missile Warning systems like the AN/ALQ-212

and similar ones developed by Northrop-Grumman, Rafael and others.... A Google search would yield more info regarding this...

Edited September 24, 2008 by Tomcat_ace

[MigBuster 2,884]

Interesting....

 

Tell me one thing; are those glazed panels on the nose of the F-4 in your previous post part of such a system....

 

 

That looks like the RF-4E which was one recce version of the Phantom so they should be cameras.

[SkyStrike 15]

That looks like the RF-4E which was one recce version of the Phantom so they should be cameras.

 

 

Nope... I dont believe so... It's still got the cannon pod under the nose and the RF-4E has its camera set housed in the undernose pod instead of the cannon...

 

Some RF-4E's have camera ports on the panels close to the nose,as you said.

 

However it's unlikely that the one in MigMasher's post is one of them.....

 

have a look at the pics in this link:

 

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/type.php?p=225

Edited September 24, 2008 by Tomcat_ace

[MigBuster 2,884]

In real settings the F-111 was equiped with an early, but crude version of a IR warning sensor system, but it really only detected the exhaust plumes of the missiles themselves. It would be interesting to have that duplicated in Strike Fighters.

 

 

Actually if you have any info on why the system was not used on other jets - or why it failed would be good to know. Even in OIF 2003 accounts the F-14 pilots all seem to be using their eyes to look for SAMs.