Ouestion about default paint on Albatros D.III

[WarlordATF 1]

This is kinda strange to me or maybe i'm just under-informed. The Default Albatros D.III's Jasta 11 paintjob has the entire fuselage of the aircraft painted red, Is this correct? I thought they had Red noses and tails, but i though MvR was the only one with the entire fuselage painted red.

 

Maybe i'm wrong, but i haven't been able to find the profile for a Jasta 11 D.III on the net yet. Anyone know?

[Southside Bucky 1]

No, it's not correct as a generic Jasta 11 machine. As you say, J11 pilots generally used red on the noses and tails of their a/c.

 

There were exceptions though...Karl Allmenroeder's, D.III for example, did have the complete red fuselage, but with a white nose and elevator. Then there's Georg Simon's machine, which had a totally red fuselage except for a large green band aft of the cockpit.

 

Actually, some colours and markings enthusiasts would say that the generic Jasta 11 skin is a more accurate representation of MvR's D.III (The one he called "Le Petite Rouge") than the actual 'Richthofen M' skin, because it has camouflage/sky blue wings.

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

Edited November 16, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[Heck 496]

The type of scheme you're talking about could be easily created by cutting and pasting parts from the Jasta11 bitmaps over the GermanCamo1 bitmaps to create a red nose and tail, but leave the fuselage natural varnish. Can we post altered TK bitmaps? If we can, I'll brew one up.

 

Heck

[WarlordATF 1]

The type of scheme you're talking about could be easily created by cutting and pasting parts from the Jasta11 bitmaps over the GermanCamo1 bitmaps to create a red nose and tail, but leave the fuselage natural varnish. Can we post altered TK bitmaps? If we can, I'll brew one up.

 

Heck

 

 

I'm pretty sure that uploading modified skins is fine as long as you don't include the LODs, If i am wrong i ask that one of our Moderators let us know.

 

Thanks again guys, i knew about Allmenroeder, but i thought he was more the exception than the rule. I didn't know about Simon though, so i guess i still need to do more homework.

 

It just seemed to me that if all of Jasta 11 painted the entire fuselage red there would be a ton of false reports of killing MvR when in fact it was just a member of the squadron.

 

i still can't find a D.III Profile but the B/W Pictures i have seen looked like it was the red nose/tail paintjob, If Heck can put together an accurate skin i'd be greatful, i could try but i still have not mastered using layers so the nose and tail would be all red and the details would be lost.

 

EDIT: Doh, I can be a bit dense sometimes, At first I didn't catch the cut and paste part that Heck was saying. Is this more accurate? The white band is part of the personal section of the decal.ini.

 

Edited November 16, 2008 by WarlordATF

[Southside Bucky 1]

Apparently, Otto Brauneck's Albatros D.III also had a completely red fuselage, with a blue nose.

 

But off the top of my head, unlike the other two examples above, I don't recall ever seeing a photo of it.

 

Bucky

[Heck 496]

You got it. You can use the Albatros DVa template to guide you as to what parts are what, and from that make a scheme where the struts are unpainted, if you prefer. I was just about to put one together myself, but your version is exactly what I had in mind.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Hi fella's.

 

Just an observation:

 

Where Jasta 11 D.III markings and colour schemes are concerned, photo's and documented colours are quite scarce, so I'm not saying the scheme posted by Warlord is wrong, but I think it was rare at the time (early '17) to paint the forward fuselage up to the cockpit as depicted.

 

IMHO, it might be a tad more representative, albeit generic, to have the red nose painted only as far as the front of the engine.

 

Up to you though, of course. :yes:

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[WarlordATF 1]

Good Point, Your Probably right.

 

Its kinda funny, considering how many Aces used this plane there are hardly any good pictures of it.

 

I Honestly still don't know if Lothar's tail was really yellow or not on the D.III.

 

I think it was, but i have seen others argue that is wasn't, it seems alot about the D.III is open to speculation.

 

Edit: I think you are right, I tweaked it a little and it looks better to me, what do you think?

 

Edited November 16, 2008 by WarlordATF

[Southside Bucky 1]

For what its worth, in the late A.E. Ferko's excellent book; 'Richthofen', he states:

 

"On March 6 Ltn Lubbert recorded the following colours of his Staffel mates:

 

Obltn. Freiherr von Richthofen. Bright Red.

 

Ltn. Carl Emil Schafer. Yellow with Black Tail.

 

Ltn. Kurt Wolff. Plum Purple.

 

Ltn. Edy Lubbert. Half Blue, Half Yellow."

 

He (Ferko) goes on:

 

"When Lothar von Richthofen joined the Staffel he later opted for yellow at the rear end, ie, on rudder and elevators."

 

Even if there were photo's of LvR's D.III, I don't think it'd be much help 'cause the orthochromatic film the Germans usually used at the time, rendered yellow shades either very dark grey or black. To illustrate this, there's a photo of a Jasta 11 Albatros D.III line up on page 22 of 'Richthofen' that makes it look as though ALL J11 D.III's were entirely overpainted with dark paint, but that orthochromatic film type caused the yellow varnished wood fuselages to photograph almost black.

 

Regards.

 

Bucky

[Southside Bucky 1]

Sorry man, we were posting at the same time there...

 

It's difficult to say, 'cause there aren't any photo's to back it up...But if it were me, I'd do the nose like this:

 

http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/obr1/...iii_schafer.jpg

[WarlordATF 1]

I Gave that a try but i can't figure out where the prop spinner is mapped in the texture.

 

It became silver/gray again and i tried replacing those colored areas, but i think it might be mapped as part of the metal that goes under the guns, if thats the case then it would look bad. I have not given up, i think your actually right, but i'm gonna live with the second design and actually get some flight time in.

 

If anyone can point out where in the texture the spinner is mapped i can finish it pretty quickly.

 

 

 

EDIT: Fixed the Problem with the Spinner and did a few other skins. Skinpack has been submitted and is awaiting approval!

Edited November 17, 2008 by WarlordATF

[Southside Bucky 1]

Well done! Really nice set of scheme's you've put together there, Warlord.

 

Don't wanna put you to any trouble, but any chance you could do Wolff's "plum purple" machine?

 

All the best.

 

Bucky

 

PS. Thanks for the mention in the read me, too.

[WarlordATF 1]

I have started on Wolff's D.III, but i can't find any information to figure out how it was marked. Does anyone have a link to a profile? A google search didn't turn up anything. Did it have the Red Spinner?

 

Here's what i have so far...

 

[Heck 496]

I have started on Wolff's D.III, but i can't find any information to figure out how it was marked. Does anyone have a link to a profile? A google search didn't turn up anything. Did it have the Red Spinner?

 

Here's what i have so far...

 

 

Couldn't find a profile, but I found this painting. Don't know if you've seen it already...

 

http://www.starduststudios.com/Richthofen_Flying_Circus.htm

[WarlordATF 1]

Yeah thats a great painting! Its the only picture i've seen of Wolff's D.III, I assume the Yellow/Blue belongs to Eduard Lubbert right? Still have not decided if i should paint the nose of Wolff's red or not, but i made a little more progress today.

 

[Southside Bucky 1]

Here's another Artist's rendition. This time with a green elevator:

 

http://www.barryweekleyart.com/aviation/Ku...0Jasta%2011.jpg

 

 

Scroll down for a photo of Wolff standing next to the plane in question:

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

 

Whether or not it had a red nose, struts and wheels is anyone's guess, but IMO, it probably would've had the standard three colour camouflage on the wings.

 

 

BTW, heres a good colour profile of Georg Simon's D.III.

 

http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww1/f/415/59/2/33

 

He was shot down and captured on June 4th '17. His Albatros also survived intact and was given the British capture number G42.

[Heck 496]

My best guess is that the nose of his aircraft was the same color as the fuselage. One site I found identifies the third aircraft in this photo as Wolff's:

 

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9500/j11ajc1.jpg

 

You can't see it well, but it appears to be the same color as the fuselage, even though the photo is black and white, although, that's just my guess, and others may have a different opinion.

 

That is, if it is Wolff's. I've seen another site identify the same plane as Allmenroder's, and the elevator does seem to be white, so, more likely, it's his. If it were up to me, I'd go with the only concrete information you have, and that's the painting.

 

Thanks for all the work you're doing.

 

Heck

Edited November 23, 2008 by Heck

[Southside Bucky 1]

Incidentally, Notice in the photo of Wolf standing next to (presumably) his machine, that the wheel covers seem to be a light shade. Probably the factory finish, light grey.

[Southside Bucky 1]

Without wanting to over complicate things, I think it's worth mentioning that there is another school of thought regarding the colours of Wolff's early D.III:

 

Some "experts" are of the opinion that the early Albatros flown by Wolff, which would have had the centrally placed upper wing radiator, only had the rear fuselage and tail painted purple. A purple version of Schaefer's D.III, if you will.

 

It would appear from that photo, that the D.III Wolff's standing next to is the later variant with the off-set radiator, and was possibly painted overall red, but with a green nose and elevator. This would kinda fit in better with other J11 schemes like Allmenroeder's and Brauneck's.

 

Decisions, decisions, eh?

 

Bucky

Edited November 23, 2008 by Southside Bucky

[stephen honey 0]

quote name='Southside Bucky' date='Nov 23 2008, 04:41 PM' post='216479']

Without wanting to over complicate things, I think it's worth mentioning that there is another school of thought regarding the colours of Wolff's early D.III:

 

Some "experts" are of the opinion that the early Albatros flown by Wolff, which would have had the centrally placed upper wing radiator, only had the rear fuselage and tail painted purple. A purple version of Schaefer's D.III, if you will.

 

It would appear from that photo, that the D.III Wolff's standing next to is the later variant with the off-set radiator, and was possibly painted overall red, but with a green nose and elevator. This would kinda fit in better with other J11 schemes like Allmenroeder's and Brauneck's.

 

Decisions, decisions, eh?

 

Bucky

 

 

 

It is difficult to get the details 100% right, especially with conflicting opinions and accounts. A trawl through historical books and the internet doesn't offer anything in the way of wholly corroborating evidence. Several months ago, (probably nearer last Christmas!) I was working on some Albatros DIII skins for a Jasta 11 flight with a view to posting in response to request in the forum. I'm still doing them because I've changed my mind so many times as to what is an accurate representation. It's the lack of concrete information, particularly concerning Kurt Wolff's plane, that has slowed things down. I've posted up some WIPs approaching a scheme for the 'purple' Albatros and the Jasta 11 machine that I'm fairly happy with, albeit for a few tidying and detailing tweaks here and there. If anyone spots any glaring errors or could offer some extra detailing that I could add, please do.

[Southside Bucky 1]

The red 'n green one looks like a contender to me Stephen...Very nice indeed!

 

I've never given the colour of Wolff's D.III's much thought before, but I have to say, regarding the purple one, I'm tending toward the 'purple tail and rear fuselage only' theory now.

Painted in that way, he could've had the red nose, wheels and struts, and the clear varnished forward fuselage. Thereby avoiding the horrendous red/purple colour clash.

 

As to the wing camo colours: Bearing in mind that the 'purple' machine came first, and was an early variant, I'd say it probably would've had the earlier green/brown colours, rather than the lilac/green.

 

I think you could get away with the lilac/green wings on the later, red one though, if you wanted to. The Idflieg order to repaint wing camouflage colours was issued in April '17.

 

Still all based on conjecture, but I hope this helps a little.

 

Bucky

[JFM 18]

Hello! My meager $00.02.

 

Wolff's March D.III and the plane with which he was photographed (D.632/17) are two different machines. According to Ferko, 632/17 was delivered to Jasta 11 19 April 1917. Ferko wrote it was later overpainted in purple, but Greg VanWyngarden has stated that by this time the Jasta 11 red overpainting was in full swing and the plane was likely overall red, as was Schäfer's, Allmenröder's, Manfred's, etc. This cannot be proven, but I agree with GvW (just stating my position, not trying to suggest my agreement adds any sort of weight to GvW's claim).

 

I mentioned Schäfer. His black fuselage/empennage D.III was lost when he was shot down 22 April. When he was shot down and KiA 5 June by No. 20 Squadron, their Squadron Record Book states "red scout." He was with Jasta 28 by then, but certainly received a new machine while still in Jasta 11 (he had victories with Jasta 11 after his 22 April downing, prior to his assuming command of Jasta 28) that must have been painted red, and there is that fantastic photo of Schäfer standing next to a solid-color Alb. So, again, two machines.

 

Regarding planforms, SSBucky is right that the pale green/olive green/venetian red camo was used on the first D.III production batch and later discontinued. Dan-San Abbot's research indicates the 2nd D.III production batch (D.600-649/17) had the pale/olive green only. This cannot be seen on Allmenröder's or Schäfer's or even Manfred's 3rd production D.789/17 (I don't even know of a 100% certain photo of this machine) but this two-toned camo may be seen on other Albs. So, something like below (although please understand I am NOT suggesting Wolff's plane bore this pattern, only illustrating an absence of venetian red; the Wolff photo shows a centrally located dark band that sloped left, but I have not drawn this planform):

 

 

However, the Idflieg order to remove the venetian red was made 12 April and stated that "dark green and lilac should be used only." However, the second production D.III machines were ordered in February 1917. ??? Did they have advanced notice? Were they field painted post 12 April to remove the venetian? Or is the sloping band on Wolff's D.632/17 olive green flanked by pale green and venetian? (I'll run this past DSA and see what he says.) Some D.III (OAW)s used green and mauve, but it is my understanding that this didn't reach the Albatros-Johannisthal machines until the D.V, the first of which were ordered in April.

 

WW1 colors and markings. Each "answer" comprises several more questions!

 

Anyway, my take on D.632/17, which is based on the famous photograph:

 

 

All these new skins! I have to get on the ball and download them all--especially the Albs, my favorite German machine. Thanks for the work and making them available.

[stephen honey 0]

Hello! My meager $00.02.

 

Wolff's March D.III and the plane with which he was photographed (D.632/17) are two different machines. According to Ferko, 632/17 was delivered to Jasta 11 19 April 1917. Ferko wrote it was later overpainted in purple, but Greg VanWyngarden has stated that by this time the Jasta 11 red overpainting was in full swing and the plane was likely overall red, as was Schäfer's, Allmenröder's, Manfred's, etc. This cannot be proven, but I agree with GvW (just stating my position, not trying to suggest my agreement adds any sort of weight to GvW's claim).

 

I mentioned Schäfer. His black fuselage/empennage D.III was lost when he was shot down 22 April. When he was shot down and KiA 5 June by No. 20 Squadron, their Squadron Record Book states "red scout." He was with Jasta 28 by then, but certainly received a new machine while still in Jasta 11 (he had victories with Jasta 11 after his 22 April downing, prior to his assuming command of Jasta 28) that must have been painted red, and there is that fantastic photo of Schäfer standing next to a solid-color Alb. So, again, two machines.

 

Regarding planforms, SSBucky is right that the pale green/olive green/venetian red camo was used on the first D.III production batch and later discontinued. Dan-San Abbot's research indicates the 2nd D.III production batch (D.600-649/17) had the pale/olive green only. This cannot be seen on Allmenröder's or Schäfer's or even Manfred's 3rd production D.789/17 (I don't even know of a 100% certain photo of this machine) but this two-toned camo may be seen on other Albs. So, something like below (although please understand I am NOT suggesting Wolff's plane bore this pattern, only illustrating an absence of venetian red; the Wolff photo shows a centrally located dark band that sloped left, but I have not drawn this planform):

 

 

However, the Idflieg order to remove the venetian red was made 12 April and stated that "dark green and lilac should be used only." However, the second production D.III machines were ordered in February 1917. ??? Did they have advanced notice? Were they field painted post 12 April to remove the venetian? Or is the sloping band on Wolff's D.632/17 olive green flanked by pale green and venetian? (I'll run this past DSA and see what he says.) Some D.III (OAW)s used green and mauve, but it is my understanding that this didn't reach the Albatros-Johannisthal machines until the D.V, the first of which were ordered in April.

 

WW1 colors and markings. Each "answer" comprises several more questions!

 

Anyway, my take on D.632/17, which is based on the famous photograph:

 

 

All these new skins! I have to get on the ball and download them all--especially the Albs, my favorite German machine. Thanks for the work and making them available.

 

Many thanks for the added information and the graphics, they help greatly and are easier to interpret than the text descriptions. Interesting to see that you have the horizontal stabilisers in green as opposed to just the aileron. I was following the rule of thumb along the lines of Allmenroder's Albatros. Throwing in another question, how much 'artistic licence' was given to each individual pilot. Would they have had total say over their individual paint schemes considering the reverence they were given amongst their peers at the time. I think I'll re-gather all the bits of information I have and put them with the new bits to try and make something a little more definite..... (does anyone have a time machine, (bullet-proof preferably), so that I can go back and take some colour photographs?)

[WarlordATF 1]

I had intended to do a full pack of all the Jasta 11 D.IIIs, but finding solid info is pretty rough. Sometimes even the real experts can't agree on what color something is in those old photos. Anything i release is just based on speculation,It shouldn't be taken too seriously, I just wanted a fast way to have the Flying Circus effect when i encountered Jasta 11 in a campaign. All the colors swirling around in a furball in the distance is pretty cool to watch.

 

Those D.III skins by Stephen look amazing! I'll use those as soon as they are released, Wolff's Purple Machine looks really good!

[JFM 18]

I had intended to do a full pack of all the Jasta 11 D.IIIs, but finding solid info is pretty rough. Sometimes even the real experts can't agree on what color something is in those old photos. Anything i release is just based on speculation,It shouldn't be taken too seriously, I just wanted a fast way to have the Flying Circus effect when i encountered Jasta 11 in a campaign. All the colors swirling around in a furball in the distance is pretty cool to watch.

 

Those D.III skins by Stephen look amazing! I'll use those as soon as they are released, Wolff's Purple Machine looks really good!

 

By "sometimes" you mean "all the time," don't you?

 

Warlord, please don't think I was nitpicking your work. Great stuff! Downloaded the Albs, will be flying same over the holidays. Thank you!

 

SH, my green horizontal stabs is speculation; could just be different reflection in the photograph. I agree, a time machine would solve many problems! Just go back to, say, 1910 and leave cameras, color film and processing chemicals. That'd give everyone four years to grasp and develop the technology, and then today we'd have color shots out the wazoo.

 

As far as artistic license, I believe that (generally) the specific Jasta identifying colors were applied, and then beyond that there was liberal freedom. For instance, Jasta 5. By July 1917 they all (at least an overwhelming majority) had the green empennages with the red piping, but otherwise every machine was wildly individual and, in a few cases, outright ostentatious.