Good Camel and Fokker Dr1 flight models

[+quack74 329]

I'm in need of good flight models for the Camels and the Fokker Dr.1. Ever since the patches they both are very sluggish performance wise. Rudder and elevator controls have a poor response. Very slow and cant even get a spin out of them. These two planes should be the most manueverable. For me they're the worst. I have the Expansion Pack and the latest Nov patch. and I've tried all available flight models. But no go. It also seems that when I try to alter the Data Files for each plane I get no response. I unpack the security files and edit the Data files. I get no change in performance when I restart game. They used to work but I guess the last patch doesnt allow for changes. I dont know . Can anybody out there help. I have even reistalled the game. Still the same. I like the flight model of the Sopwith Tripe fixed by Pete01 . I think the Fokker should be like that if not better.

[Heck 496]

I can't be sure, but I think this is the change to the data.ini that made it impossible to depart these airplanes. This is the Camel 130. Pre 11/08:

 

AlphaStall=10.45

AlphaMax=11.24

AlphaDepart=13.24

 

Post patch:

 

AlphaStall=7.69

AlphaMax=11.24

AlphaDepart=15.24

 

Note that the AlphaStall and AlphaDepart are now more than seven degrees apart, rather than less than three. Why did TK change this? I don't know. Perhaps we were complaining that the AI departed and crashed too much. Perhaps we pointed out that the original numbers didn't correspond to something we read somewhere. Perhaps there were too many complaints about departing in turns. Perhaps TK had to change something else, and had to change this as a result. Don't know, but I do know that if I use my previous Camel data.ini, I get departures, and if I use the later patched one, I don't. And I think this change is the reason.

[+quack74 329]

But why when I try to change the Data files there is no change in performance?. No matter how much I change the number values. If I change those Alfa values does it change my ability to change performance??

[+Tailspin 3]

quack...Are you putting the modified data.inis in the plane folders?

[+quack74 329]

I'll open the Fokker Dr1 Data file. Change some rudder values. Save. Than run the game and nothing seems to change. I'll even try raising the values way too high just to get an effect. No matter what I do nothing changes. The fokker remains sluggish in maneuvers. Am I the only one with this problem with the Dr.1 and Camel flight models? Can they not be changed? Can you send me a PM with your Dr.1 Data file settings. I'll compare them w mine. Maybe something is wrong with my Dr.1 model settings. I dont know . As of now I cant even use them. After all the skins I made, and for now they're useless

[+Tailspin 3]

Hmmm....well I never got around to loading up the Nov. patch. I'm still using the Oct. version. I figured the only thing the Nov. patch did was fix a CTD problem that I didn't have to begin with. I fly the Camels a lot and haven't notice any reduction in performance. I just tried a mission in the DR 1, wound up a 4 on 4 against Camel 150s. I shot 3 down myself and the AI got the other. It seemed easy enough to make a quick turn inside the Camel's and blast em.

[Ronbo 0]

Not sure what problems you are having with the most manouverable kites in FE? I have no problems with them, they just seem to easy to fly and get kills in (hard FM). trying to fly an alb or spad against them is another story. that takes alot of planes and alot of manouvering to keep away from these dogfighters.

 

If anything, they should be the hardest planes to fly. the Dr1 should be all rudder, constant climb. the camel should require IIRC, constant left rudder to compensate for gyro precession and stall if not flown properly.

 

The FM will always be debated, but the real test is how the AI can handle it and how the crate compares to its rival.

[+peter01 2]

Firstly Quack, thanks for all the great skins. I use yours as defaults for the Camel, Dr1 and now Tripe.

 

Re mods - yes you can do mods, and it will work immediately. As Tailspin said, its very likely you are not moving the data.ini to the Dr1 plane folder - it extracts to another folder "Objects", then move it. The game doesn't look at the "Objects" folder for aircraft FMs.

 

Re capability. Firstly the TKs Camel turns better to the right. If you are just using TKs FMs then you should have no trouble out maneouvring any other plane.

 

If you are using my FMs mixed with TKs, the Camel or Dr1 for example won't be as superior. I think this is what you are doing - you are using a Tripe FM done for the 2007 version? The AI on all FMs I have done are for the 2007 version would probably be far more capable mainly because AI parameters have changed between versions (I don't check consistency between versions because I know TK has made major changes to both FMs and AI). What worked well before could be excessive now - and thats what my quick testing showed when the 2008 Aprill patch came out - its probably even more so with Oct/Nov 2008 versions.

 

All these changes with every version are difficult for everyone.

Edited February 15, 2009 by peter01

[+Tailspin 3]

Difficult to say the least, Peter. I'm using the Nov 07 FM for the Tripe. Its very "quick". That advantage is offset by the single gun and it seems more vulnerable to damage so its not that much of an overmatch against the Alb. DIIIs that are most often encountered. At least the AI in this sim is capable enough so that you have to watch your six or they will get you.

[+Tailspin 3]

Btw Peter, since you are here, could you check the Pfalz D12 when you have the time? I was watching the AI fight and noticed the D12 was constantly pitching up and down while trailing and firing on another plane. Thx.

[+peter01 2]

Yes it is difficult to say whats the case with any particular plane. There are probably 10-15 ai parameters that effect dogfighting performance, maybe 5 more if you include skills.

 

I use them all. I do each AI differently.

 

TK improved the AI in the April 2008 patch considerably, and yes they are good, but some parameters don't even work, some work better, some work less good compared to 2007 EP version that I based mine on. so which AI is better or worse is hard to say generally, but on the whole improved by quite a bit, is my guess.

 

The final test I do for example the Tripe AI in any version, is flying the same plane as a player in a 1:1. The aim for me is that the AI at Ace Skill level should be nearly the equal. It wasn't when i tested some in the April 2008 version, the AI were generally far too good.

 

I have done new ones for the mid-late war period. been flying them for several months and they are probably as good as I can do. Unfortunately haven't finished the AI, the AI stuff has become more complex and I sort of lost a bit of interest, or more accurately found some new games that I'm enjoying. So haven't made them available.

 

I'll see if I can finish these ... sometime!

Edited February 15, 2009 by peter01

[+peter01 2]

Btw Peter, since you are here, could you check the Pfalz D12 when you have the time? I was watching the AI fight and noticed the D12 was constantly pitching up and down while trailing and firing on another plane. Thx.

 

 

You mean the one I did for the Nov 2008 version? I just used TKs AI parameters, I didn't check how the AI worked at all. think I said that at the time.

 

But sorry about that, but because I haven't done AI stuff or tested AI stuff for mid-late planes, or even extensively for the early set (not playing the game as much the last few months), I stopped uploading the mid-late FMs I started making available.

 

I am interested in any issues on AI people have seen with the early set. I'm sure there are some :). The AI is now very complex, and anything I have done wrong there may help when I get around to redoing the PfalzD12 and others sometime. I don't like having to redo things constantly either.

 

In any case, thanks for letting me know, hadn't seen that.

Edited February 15, 2009 by peter01

[Steve43 0]

Btw Peter, since you are here, could you check the Pfalz D12 when you have the time? I was watching the AI fight and noticed the D12 was constantly pitching up and down while trailing and firing on another plane. Thx.

 

 

Tailspin,

Try adding these two lines between [sound] and [AircraftData] in the PfalzD12_DATA.ini:

 

[AIData]

ElevatorDeltaPitch=1.4

[+Tailspin 3]

Peter...Its the Jan. 09 update I'm using. It looks like the AI is constantly over-correcting pitch input.

 

Steve43...Thanks! I'll try that...and WELCOME to CombatACE! Happy to have you aboard.

[+quack74 329]

Before this thread gets too crazy with all the different flight models, I just want to say thanks to Peter01. I was just changing the "rudder" data in the objects folder. I copied all files for the Dr.1 and pasted them in the FokkerDr1 aircraft folder. Now I have a great working Dr.1 . Camel's still sluggish in the tail. But I'll work on it. Thanks.

[+Tailspin 3]

quack...Are you putting the modified data.inis in the plane folders?

 

 

Ummmmm..................

[+quack74 329]

Sorry. Was I being a little pushy there?

[+Tailspin 3]

Sorry. Was I being a little pushy there?

 

Nope. I was just fooling around. Nevermind.

[+peter01 2]

Peter...Its the Jan. 09 update I'm using. It looks like the AI is constantly over-correcting pitch input.

 

Steve43...Thanks! I'll try that...and WELCOME to CombatACE! Happy to have you aboard.

 

Yes thats the version I was referring to ... for Nov 2008 patch.

 

Steve43's suggestion may work well. It does reduce the ai's pitching/turning ability, but that may be a bonus too!

 

Another parameter that has a significant effect is PitchForVerticalVelocity. You could try using PitchForVerticalVelocity=-0.005. This one doesn't effect too much else...lower values result in the plane using less climb in dogfights.

Edited February 17, 2009 by peter01