Arthur Brooks and the eight D.VII's...

[Hauksbee 103]

Just re-watched the History Channel's Dogfights episode on WWI. In the fight between Brooks and the D.VII's, he shoots down four, but due to some technical nuance on awarding victories, he is only credited with two. What was the issue involved?

[Hellshade 110]

Wow. I just watched that last night while I was ironing my clothes for work today. I can't say for sure what the reason is why he didn't get the extra two claims, but my guess is it that it had something to do with lack of visual confirmation from the army or wingman. Remember, at the beginning of the fight he flew off over the top of his flight leader in order to take the DVIIs head on and immediately got seperated from the rest of his group. They still had 4 DVIIs to deal with, keeping them a bit busy while he was fending off 8 on his own. They may not have had time to see two of them go down. Anyone with better history knowledge have a better understanding of why he didn't get credit?

 

I personally haven't been able to master the Spad VII or XIII. It just cant turn like a DVII so I am amazed he was able to keep them off his tail.

 

Hellshade

[Hauksbee 103]

I'll watch again, but my sense of it was, 'two is your limit', but this is the first and only time I've ever of this problem.

[Red-Dog 3]

I think the off claim board must be involved.I had 3 claims and none got confirmed?

[Duce Lewis 3]

This might shed a little light on the subject

http://boards.history.com/thread.jspa?thre...ageID=700268352

 

The fog of war rears it's ugly head again

But I think Brooks claimed what he honestly felt was correct

 

Cheers,

[+MK2 12]

I'll watch again, but my sense of it was, 'two is your limit', but this is the first and only time I've ever of this problem.

 

 

There was no limit .

 

His DSC citation clearly states the two confirmed kills.

 

I would guess it had to do with lack of witnesses, but I see no mention in the official scores that he even claimed the other two.

 

Here is his citation:

 

Distinguished Service Cross (DSC)

The Distinguished Service Cross is presented to Arthur Raymond Brooks, Second Lieutenant (Air Service), U.S. Army, for extraordinary heroism in action over Mars-la-Tour, France, September 14, 1918. When his patrol was attacked by 12 enemy Fokkers over Mars-la-Tour, 8 miles within the enemy lines, Second Lieutenant Brooks alone fought bravely and relentlessly with eight of them, pursuing the fight from 5, 000 meters to within a few meters of the ground, and though his right rudder control was out and his plane riddled with bullets, he destroyed two Fokkers, one falling out of control and the other bursting into flames.

[Hauksbee 103]

This might shed a little light on the subject

http://boards.history.com/thread.jspa?thre...ageID=700268352

 

Very interesting...and disappointing. I will forever take the History Channel with a large grain of salt. Their depiction of the events is flatly dishonest [assuming that the accounts in the link above are true.] I encourage anyone interested in this fight to read these two accounts. Briefly, there was only one plane shot down in flames: a D.VII. Lt Phil Hassinger and Brooks shared the kill. Hassinger was killed later in the fight. Two other D.VII's were shot down, but landed behind their own lines and the pilots survived. Neither account says if Brooks was part of that, but somewhere he tangled with a second D.VII, filing a claim for two victories when he arrived home. When they were confirmed, Brooks insisted that the credit be shared with Hassinger.

 

The second of the respondents said that he knew Brooks personally and was interviewed for the show, but his views and additional information [planes color scheme's, etc.] were not used. The show apparently drew heavily on Brooks's diaries and it's hard to say what he recorded after the fact, but the official record shows a claim for two only.

 

The swirling, furball aspect of the fight seems to be accurate. So the History Channel has that going for them.

[dixieflyer 0]

I personally haven't been able to master the Spad VII or XIII. It just cant turn like a DVII so I am amazed he was able to keep them off his tail.

 

Two of my favorites too Hellshade, and I cannot get the hang of them either. So many of the French aces that came off of Nieuports were very successful with these crates, and the two a/c (Noop vs. Spad) are so different. Completely different personalities to me.

 

Warren

[Duce Lewis 3]

Very interesting...and disappointing. I will forever take the History Channel with a large grain of salt. Their depiction of the events is flatly dishonest [assuming that the accounts in the link above are true.] I encourage anyone interested in this fight to read these two accounts. Briefly, there was only one plane shot down in flames: a D.VII. Lt Phil Hassinger and Brooks shared the kill. Hassinger was killed later in the fight. Two other D.VII's were shot down, but landed behind their own lines and the pilots survived. Neither account says if Brooks was part of that, but somewhere he tangled with a second D.VII, filing a claim for two victories when he arrived home. When they were confirmed, Brooks insisted that the credit be shared with Hassinger.

 

The second of the respondents said that he knew Brooks personally and was interviewed for the show, but his views and additional information [planes color scheme's, etc.] were not used. The show apparently drew heavily on Brooks's diaries and it's hard to say what he recorded after the fact, but the official record shows a claim for two only.

 

The swirling, furball aspect of the fight seems to be accurate. So the History Channel has that going for them.

The two accounts in the link do add an interesting perspective on the dogfight

But they are written post hostilities and have the advantage of cross-border research not available to Brooks and the other combatants

 

Brooks' experience and claims seem quite typical of fighter pilots regardless of nationality and era

In 1940 the German Hign Command predicted the end of the RAF many times, but still the Spits and Hurris kept showing up

Their mistake was to base their assumptions on pilot claims

In the high stress of a furball it's easy to see how 2 could make claim on the same flamer or assume a smoking planes is going to crash

Many of these same pilots went on to become the most prolific scorers of WWII so they were certainly capable

 

Looking at Brooks' claims it's easy to understand how he could have mistaken 1 of the D7's that eventually crash landed as a kill

Heck, he was surrounded by 6 or 7 angry hornets ...how much attention could he have given a smoker going down?

The fact that he insisted on sharing the flamer with a dead comrade attests to his honesty

I think his claims for 1 1/2 victories are what he honestly felt happened

 

How the History Channel managed to swell this up to 4 victories is another story

I will say though that I've always thought that this episode was lacking in detail

The WWII, Vietnam, and other recent encounters have the advantage of the actual pilots narrating and explaining the action right down to stick and rudder movements

 

Sadly, Brooks passed on in 1991, far too early for this hi-tech show

The WWI episode really only showed firing passes and what looked like hammerhead turns

If only Brooks were there we might know how to DF a D7 with a Spad ...Sigh!

Robin Olds and others gave detailed explanations showing how they got their big Phantoms inside the much more maneuverable Mig 17s & 19s

 

Cheers,