Love the Tripe

[badgerboy 0]

He's that popcorn guy, isn't he?

 

 

Exactly

[JimAttrill 24]

The reason Canadians (and US citizens who joined the RFC via Canada) did so well is that they knew how to fly as they were trained well. Most Canadian pilots had quite a few hours by the time they eventually got to France, unlike the Brits who were thrown into the fray with sometimes less than 20 Hours solo.

 

It was hard to train a pilot in the UK (and still is) because the weather is so horrible for flying. In WWII the British did not make the same mistake, sending many pilots to Canada, South Africa and (then) Rhodesia to be trained as the weather was and is much better there.

 

It is still a 'cottage industry' here in South Africa, offering cheap accomodation and flying time, so you can have a holiday and get your PPL in a few weeks at nice places like Port Elizabeth on the coast.

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

Canvas Wings: It seems disproportionate that out of the 12 top scoring pilots of the war, (50+ vitories) 4 were Canadians....

 

1 Germany Richthofen, Manfred Freiherr von 80

2 France Fonck, René Paul 75

3 Canada Bishop, William Avery 72

4 Germany Udet, Ernst 62

5 England Mannock, Edward Corringham 61

6 Canada Collishaw, Raymond 60

7 England McCudden, James Thomas Byford 57

8 South Africa Beauchamp-Proctor, Andrew 54

9 Germany Loewenhardt (Löwenhardt), Erich 54

10 Canada MacLaren, Donald Roderick 54

11 France Guynemer, Georges 53

12 Canada Barker, William George 50

13 Germany Jacobs, Josef Carl Peter 48

14 Germany Voss, Werner 48

15 Australia Little, Robert Alexander 47

 

Olham,

 

I see you are perpetrating the myth that Billy Bishop was the highest scoring British and Commonwealth pilot of WW1, I have just checked on The Aerodrome on the aces listing for Bishop and printed off the claims that he made, it makes interesting reading.

 

Of the 72 victories that he claimed under the heading flying (basically meaning witnesses in my eyes) the following are recorded:

 

Victories Flying (witnesses)

23 Alone

5 Alone?

2 By himself

1 Again by himself

2 Apparently by himself

2 Separated from patrol

7 No combat report available

 

Now being generous and giving him the 7 victories where no combat report has been found that still leaves 35 dubious claims, even if I am again generous and allow half of those claims it still only gives him 54 victories.

 

I feel that if Bishop is given credit for all the claims that he made than Mannock should be given credit as was the case at the time for any kill that he shared with as yet unblooded members of his flight/squadron, in which case I am inclined to believe the 73 claimed by Ira 'Taffy' Jones as it has the evidence of pilots who he gave those kills to (in fact insisted that he had played no part in bringing the 2 seater being claimed down).

 

We also have the evidence of 85 squadron who were at an all time low when Mannock took over command from the previous commander, who had a penchant for 'lone wolf' flights and had allowed the squadron to hit rock bottom morale wise, the commanders name Billy Bishop.

 

I rest my case. I realise this will probably generate a debate, but that is partly my intention to see what other people think.

 

Oh, by the way I am a Mannock fan, and I have found no other ace on the Aerodrome forum who has his victories listed along with the german losses for that date and location.

[shredward 12]

Not gonna touch that one. If one has an axe to grind, you can make the case, with stats to prove it, for almost any ace, either up or down. It's fashionable in certain corners to bash Bishop, just as it's fashionable in other corners to elevate some to Zeus like status. They were all human, in the midst of the most terrible war we've ever known. Give them some peace.

I could rattle on, but I have to run.

Shredward

[Olham 164]

I'm not perpetrating any myth - I don't even know the word 'perpetrating' (my English may be quite good,

but that one, I must have been ill - Lol!) No, this was just copied from "The Aerodrome", with no bias my side.

[Cameljockey 3]

Olham, he means "perpetuating" or aiding, abbetting, or continuing the myth, which may or may not be the truth. Only Billy Bob himself knows the truth.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Cameljockey

[Barkhorn1x 14]

I foolishly got involved in a discussion like this on the Aerodrome and it will not end well believe me. Over claiming is a fact of air combat no matter how many precautions you take. The rather looser Empire criteria and the fact that they fought offensively 95% of the time*** only exacerbated the issue.

 

Best to understand the limitations and accept the claims as a tribute to these brave men who claimed in good faith while doing a difficult job.

 

***meaning "over enemy lines" rather than Empire pilots being dicks about it.

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

Not gonna touch that one. If one has an axe to grind, you can make the case, with stats to prove it, for almost any ace, either up or down. It's fashionable in certain corners to bash Bishop, just as it's fashionable in other corners to elevate some to Zeus like status. They were all human, in the midst of the most terrible war we've ever known. Give them some peace.

I could rattle on, but I have to run.

Shredward

 

Shredward,

 

I am saying that it should be a level playing field for all the aces, its probably easiest for me to single out Bishop as his is the most well known case, that I know of. I am not bashing Bishop as I have the utmost respect any pilot who has flown in combat pre air to air missile days and come out an ace or survived to tell the tale

 

I am actually having a go at the statisticians who cannot be in my eyes consistent in their approach, I have seen books where Mannock is listed as having 61 victories and others where he is listed as having 73 victories, in fact if you read under the guns of the red baron, which I believe you have in your vast collection he is credited with shooting down a DH2 which he last saw spinning down into cloud at low level, if you then read Flying Fury you will find that one of the passages in the book fits the time, place and description of the kill that MVR has claimed, and which was in fact flown by James McCudden.

 

I was also having a slight fish to see which canucks would 'bite', as well as my mischievious side coming out.

 

I like your answer it was well thought out and I agree with you in that we should give them some peace.

 

Also as an unexpected bonus Olham has learnt a new english word, I just wish my german was as good as his english, my german starts and ends with "eine gross biere bitte" assuming I spelt that right.

 

Thanks

Rugbyfan1972

Edited August 5, 2009 by Rugbyfan1972

[Schnitzel von Krumm 0]

I was also having a slight fish to see which canucks would 'bite', as well as my mischievious side coming out.

 

It's okay. It's not like you insulted Gordie Howe or something.

 

It's odd the reaction that criticizing Bishop will get you in this country. There is usually a lot of anger because he's a national hero, but typically those who angriest and loudest are the ones who are least likely to know anything about Bishop, other pilots like Collishaw, or the war in general. But I suppose that's the usual pattern.

 

It's similarly unwise to enter a Royal Canadian Legion Hall and suggest that Roy Brown didn't really shoot down von Richtofen. Like the population at large, most of them will likely think Roy Clark was that fella that sang with Buck Owens on Hee Haw, or that Snoopy shot down the Red Baron in that cartoon, but one of two of the brighter ones might just take a swing at you.

 

For my safety, I stay away from the Billy Bishop debate. It's easy for me, anyway, because I've always liked Collishaw better as a historical persona in the same way that I prefer the unassuming Guynemer to Rene Fonck.

 

There was a time in my life, though, when I would have looked at you funny if you told me I would one day come to hold opinions and express preference for one WWI pilot over another. Live and learn.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Schnitzel von Krumm

[Olham 164]

Almost right, Rugbyfan, I'm sure they would understand what you mean. (Ein grosses Bier, bitte!)