To Devs, re: Medals in Phase 4

[Dej 17]

We've most of us seen the examples of the forth (or is that 4th) -coming new medals system and know that the interface is going to look amazing and that there are going to be lots of new medals.

 

I've been reading or re-reading a few (auto)biographies recently and noticed, certainly for the British pilots, that medals weren't given out consistently or strictly progressively, i.e. one pilot might received the DFC first, another the MC, then it might be a bar for the MC or a DFC or maybe the DSO. Basically meaning that the granularity of criteria for receiving a particular medal was finer than the OFF engine supports in Phase 3. Will this change in Phase 4? It would be cool NOT to know what medal you would receive when and not to have a rigid progression. Of course, the Blue Max, the VC or the CMoH as the highest honours would always come last but prior to that the order could vary offering authentic differences in pilot 'medal careers'.

 

Could it be done?

[77Scout 3]

Ohhh Kaaayyy...someones having a bad day. Moving on...

 

Winder has posted that he likes people throwing out ideas for Phase 4. Good for you Dej, this seems like a pretty good one to me.

 

If unpredictability of medals was how it was in real life then I bet that is how we might eventually see it in OFF, knowing Winders typical way of doing things.

Edited September 10, 2009 by 77Scout

[+Paarma 0]

We've most of us seen the examples of the forth (or is that 4th) -coming new medals system and know that the interface is going to look amazing and that there are going to be lots of new medals.

 

I've been reading or re-reading a few (auto)biographies recently and noticed, certainly for the British pilots, that medals weren't given out consistently or strictly progressively, i.e. one pilot might received the DFC first, another the MC, then it might be a bar for the MC or a DFC or maybe the DSO. Basically meaning that the granularity of criteria for receiving a particular medal was finer than the OFF engine supports in Phase 3. Will this change in Phase 4? It would be cool NOT to know what medal you would receive when and not to have a rigid progression. Of course, the Blue Max, the VC or the CMoH as the highest honours would always come last but prior to that the order could vary offering authentic differences in pilot 'medal careers'.

 

Could it be done?

 

Interesting info. Thanks Dej for that. I cant talk much yet about the medals system code but we will let you know once we are that point. But yes please freely send ideas. As if they are based to historical fact and might be possible to code we could and will consider all these good ideas.

[Bullethead 12]

I'd like to see awards for wounds. Every nation in WW1 had them at least by 1917. The Brits had wound stripes, the Germans had wound badges, the French had red stars, and the US had unofficial things prior to instituting the Purple Heart after the war.

[Dej 17]

I didn't mention French medals, apologies.

 

In my initial post I got slightly carried away. My original intent was to actually to ask how the medal order would work being as there are going to be more medals and the current system doesn't function as the devs would wish. I didn't actually mean to express a 'wish list', but thanks very much Paarma for your comments. I'm already much impressed by what we've seen so far.

 

Uncleal, you may take it as read that any idea for something to include in OFF that I might inadvertently post NEVER, EVER implies anything less than 100% satisfaction with this awesome simulation as is. I doubt there is anything I could suggest of that the devs haven't already considered and I feel like a kid with a new toy with whatever improvements they arrive at in their own good time. They are more dedicated to OFF than any of we devotees, howsoever ardent. I recognise that and respect it profoundly.

Edited September 10, 2009 by Dej

[+Paarma 0]

Not sure. It might be that those allied wound stripes was given to enlisted soldiers. I havent seen any document that flying men got those. German wound badges (Verwundetenabzeichen) was established 1918.

 

I'd like to see awards for wounds. Every nation in WW1 had them at least by 1917. The Brits had wound stripes, the Germans had wound badges, the French had red stars, and the US had unofficial things prior to instituting the Purple Heart after the war.

[Check Six 2]

It is an unfortunate fact that there were fewer CASUALTIES (ie wounds) in the aerial services simply for the very reason that even (relatively minor) wounds could result in death if you passed out from loss of blood whilst at altitude, or were shot some hundred miles from the nearest friendly aid post or field hospital. Many of the wounds suffered also resulted in fire in their aircraft, and even if they were lucky enough (lucky?) to land, would succumb to their wounds before they were pulled from the cockpit.

 

I am fortunate enough to get a copy of the BBC TV series "Wings" (1977-78 I think) last week and have been watching episodes whilst at work (great way to earn bucks!). Last night, a pilot was shot and wounded and fainted. His observer stood up in his cockpit (dangerous, as the plane was spinning), and begun furiously slapping his face and shaking him by the collar. (Very good series BTW. Early in the war, 1915, flying BE2c's. If you're interested...

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/movies-television/42964-wings-tv-series.html

 

you can check out that thread and find where to purchase a copy).

 

The aircraft is only a replica BE2c, but still looks and sounds good.

[Guest British_eh]

 

 

So perhaps for the Limey's, their widows can have a Death Penny, with the Pilots name inscribed too.

 

Cheers,

 

British_eh

[JimAttrill 24]

If you are an American you get lots of medals before even leaving home. I don't think this really raises morale very much, it just devalues the currency.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

I can say that I have a fair amount of knowledge about the British and French awards given during WW1 after researching and presenting the awards for my RB3D online squadron for the last four years, so if you are ever in need of some input, help or images for those don't hesitate to ask. Since the French medals were just mentioned, the general practice in the French Air Service was to award the Croixe de Guerre, (usually with palm as it was normally given at the army level), for every kill. This was the case because the CdG was the French equivalent of the "Mentioned in Despatches" in the British Army, and since nearly every confirmed kill by a French pilot was menitoned in the French army dispatches they were awarded a CdG for each one. This is why you will see in the photos of aces like Guynemer that they often have one or more very long CdG ribbons with many palms fitted to their uniforms.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Bullethead 12]

It is an unfortunate fact that there were fewer CASUALTIES (ie wounds) in the aerial services simply for the very reason that even (relatively minor) wounds could result in death if you passed out from loss of blood whilst at altitude, or were shot some hundred miles from the nearest friendly aid post or field hospital.

 

That's quite true. But most of my pilots only live long enough to be wounded or hurt in a crash, so it would be nice if they had something to show for their pains

[RAF_Louvert 101]

That would be nice BH. BTW, this is the brass wound stripe worn by British soldiers and flyers in WW1.

 

 

 

It was fitted vertically to the lower left sleeve of the tunic, just above the cuff, and there was no limit to the number a man could have.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Hasse Wind 46]

I can say that I have a fair amount of knowledge about the British and French awards given during WW1 after researching and presenting the awards for my RB3D online squadron for the last four years, so if you are ever in need of some input, help or images for those don't hesitate to ask. Since the French medals were just mentioned, the general practice in the French Air Service was to award the Croixe de Guerre, (usually with palm as it was normally given at the army level), for every kill. This was the case because the CdG was the French equivalent of the "Mentioned in Despatches" in the British Army, and since nearly every confirmed kill by a French pilot was menitoned in the French army dispatches they were awarded a CdG for each one. This is why you will see in the photos of aces like Guynemer that they often have one or more very long CdG ribbons with many palms fitted to their uniforms.

 

 

Fascinating stuff about the Croix de Guerre - I didn't know that. Getting the award must have ceased to be anything special after some ace received it for the umpteenth time. And a guy like Foch must have had a ridiculous number of CdG's...

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Hasse Wind, it is the primary reason why the Croix de Guerre is the least expensive original WW1 medal you can purchase, if you ever wish to start collecting. Beautiful, full-size, WW1-issued examples can be readily found for $15 to $35. I have both the French and Belgian WW1 CdG's with Bronze Palms, and am building a little case to display them in my flying room.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[+Paarma 0]

I can say that I have a fair amount of knowledge about the British and French awards given during WW1 after researching and presenting the awards for my RB3D online squadron for the last four years, so if you are ever in need of some input, help or images for those don't hesitate to ask. Since the French medals were just mentioned, the general practice in the French Air Service was to award the Croixe de Guerre, (usually with palm as it was normally given at the army level), for every kill. This was the case because the CdG was the French equivalent of the "Mentioned in Despatches" in the British Army, and since nearly every confirmed kill by a French pilot was menitoned in the French army dispatches they were awarded a CdG for each one. This is why you will see in the photos of aces like Guynemer that they often have one or more very long CdG ribbons with many palms fitted to their uniforms.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

Interesting stuff. Was palms or stars given for each kills every time? Or useally? Or did they give palms for each kills in early years of war and later not so many?

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Paarma, as I mentioned, the Croix de Guerre is the French version of the British "Mentioned in Despatches", and from what I have read and seen in records and photos, a soldier was presented the CdG with some form of attachment each time he was mentioned in official French military dispatches. The order of attachments went like this:

 

a Bronze Palm for each time being mentioned at the army level

a Gold Star, (actually silver gilt), for each time being mentioned at the corps level

a Silver Star for each time being mentioned at the division level

a Bronze Star for each time being mentioned at the regiment or brigade level

 

Also, a Silver Palm indicated five awards of the Bronze Palm. This would mean that if you happen to see a WW1 pilot's CdG ribbon with ten Silver Palms and four Bronze Palms it indicates he was mentioned in dispatches, (and awarded the CdG for each instance), at the army level 54 times.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[+Paarma 0]

Paarma, as I mentioned, the Croix de Guerre is the French version of the British "Mentioned in Despatches", and from what I have read and seen in records and photos, a soldier was presented the CdG with some form of attachment each time he was mentioned in official French military dispatches. The order of attachments went like this:

 

a Bronze Palm for each time being mentioned at the army level

a Gold Star, (actually silver gilt), for each time being mentioned at the corps level

a Silver Star for each time being mentioned at the division level

a Bronze Star for each time being mentioned at the regiment or brigade level

 

Also, a Silver Palm indicated five awards of the Bronze Palm. This would mean that if you happen to see a WW1 pilot's CdG ribbon with ten Silver Palms and four Bronze Palms it indicates he was mentioned in dispatches, (and awarded the CdG for each instance), at the army level 54 times.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

Ok, thanks Louvert. Good info

[RAF_Louvert 101]

My pleasure Paarma. Let me know if you need info or images for any other French or British WW1 awards and honours, I'll be happy to send along what I have.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[+Paarma 0]

Thanks Louvert, but we got them all already.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Cool. So we'll be earning those WW1 service stripes in the RFC now too? Sweet! Assuming we can survive at least a year in this bloody war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Check Six 2]

Lou,

 

I'm glad this thread was started and you expressed a bit of knowledge about the award system for British warriors. I was watching the great BBC TV series "Wings" (1977-1978) that I had the luck to get last week or so. A new pilot turned up at the squadron as a replacement, and he was formerly a Lt Colonel (I think) who took a drop in rank to Lieutenant to serve in the RFC.

 

This particular chap was a VC recipient, awarded when he was a Cavalry Officer. He never wore his medal, but had the crimson ribbon on his left breast of his maternity jacket. I noticed he also had a (very) miniature replica of the VC on that ribbon. I think the purpose of the miniature was to underline the award possibly to civilians who might not know the significance of the crimson ribbon, but would easily recognize a Victoria Cross.

 

It got me wondering. I thought the miniature medal worn on the ribbon meant a bar to the medal, ie a second award of the medal in question. Have the researchers got this one correct? Does a Victoria Cross crimson ribbon normally have a miniature Victoria Cross on it, or would that be for incredibly brave individuals who were awarded the VC twice?

 

This also got me motivated to finally chase up a few questions I had about the USA Medal Of Honour (often incorrectly called the CONGRESSIONAL Medal of Honour). Those questions I had...can the MOH be awarded posthumously? Yes, unfortunately, this is the usual method of award...most of them have been awarded to soldier, sailors, marines, and airmen who died going above and beyond their duties. Have there been any who have been awarded the MOH more than once? Several...19 I think it said. I think 5 were awarded the Army and the Navy Medal for the same action, and 14 have been awarded on two seperate occasions...correct me if I'm wrong gents...only going on memory.

 

PS I have had the great honour of having a private interview with Sir Arthur Roden Cutler VC. We sat and chatted, his good lady wife, Lady Cutler made us tea and scones. He autographed my copy of his biography. An incredible man. One of the highlights of my life.

[Bullethead 12]

This also got me motivated to finally chase up a few questions I had about the USA Medal Of Honour (often incorrectly called the CONGRESSIONAL Medal of Honour). Those questions I had...can the MOH be awarded posthumously? Yes, unfortunately, this is the usual method of award...most of them have been awarded to soldier, sailors, marines, and airmen who died going above and beyond their duties.

 

Yup. The surest way to get a MOH is to throw yourself on an enemy grenade. If it happens in training, you just get the Navy and Marine Corps medel, the highest peacetime award.

 

Bear in mind, however, that having the MOH be the ultimate award for combat heroism only started about during WW1 or a bit later. Prior to this, the MOH was a lot easier to get and was awarded in peacetime. For instance, on 21 July 1905, the little gunboat Bennington suffered a massive boiler explosion in San Diego harbor. This was a very bad thing--it killed about 1/3 of the crew--so obviously heroics were necessary. This was recognized by handing out 11 MOHs to survivors. Not to discount their bravery, but it does show how different the MOH standards were back then.

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Check Six wrote:

I thought the miniature medal worn on the ribbon meant a bar to the medal, ie a second award of the medal in question. Have the researchers got this one correct? Does a Victoria Cross crimson ribbon normally have a miniature Victoria Cross on it, or would that be for incredibly brave individuals who were awarded the VC twice?

 

The researchers were correct Sir. Since 1916 the miniature of the medal has been attached to the ribbon when only the ribbon is worn. Also, up until 1918 the ribbon was blue if the honour was bestowed for naval actions. I imagine that in the event of a second award of the VC a second miniature of the medal would be fitted when wearing only the ribbon. Of course, in its entire history there have only been three individuals to receive the Victoria Cross more than once.

 

As to the US Medal of Honor, I think you and Bullethead covered that quite well. I find it interesting that of all the combatants in WW1 the USA had the fewest number of awards it could present to its military personnel. By the close of 1918 they were as follows: the U.S. Medal of Honor, in Army and Navy versions; the Distinguished Service Cross and the Navy Cross, (the same award but different for each service branch in both design and name); the Distinguished Service Medal; and the Citation Star, which was a silver star attached to the Allied Victory Medal, (in 1932 this last one was converted and became the Silver Star, a separate medal in its own right). BTW, the most highly decorated American in WW1 was Edward Rickenbacker, with the MOH and the DSC with seven Oak Leaf Clusters, (not to mention his numerous foreign awards).

 

Also, congrats Check Six on your meeting with Sir Arthur Roden Cutler, VC. That was one decorated soldier and a very brave man. I bet he had some stories to tell.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Check Six 2]

Check Six wrote:

 

The researchers were correct Sir. Since 1916 the miniature of the medal has been attached to the ribbon when only the ribbon is worn.

 

.......

 

Also, congrats Check Six on your meeting with Sir Arthur Roden Cutler, VC. That was one decorated soldier and a very brave man. I bet he had some stories to tell.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

Thanks Lou,

 

Well, actually then, the researchers got it wrong. "Wings" was set in 1915, with the guys flying BE2c's and training in Avro's and boxkites. When this obviously very brave (but quite obnoxious) chap joined the squadron, it was in mid 1915, so he must have been awarded (or received...PLEASE guys...don't say "won"...you don't "win" a VC. It is awarded, or was received) in late 1914 or very early in 1915. Nonetheless, it was just an interesting little "aside" to the story. He charged "our hero" (the central character..a blacksmith form Becket's Hill in Surrey) with cowardice in the face of the enemy when the sergeant pilot refused to dive closer to a lone Eindekker that had plaqued their squadron for weeks, despite him being ordered to "not look for trouble" with that particular aircraft (he had a forward-firing machine gun, the BE2's were armed with a rifle).

 

Lou, Sir Arthur Roden Cutler, VC, AK, KCMG, KCVO, CBE, KStJ, was the most extraordinary man it has been my honour to meet, incredibly brave.

• • "For most conspicuous and sustained gallantry during the Syrian Campaign and for outstanding bravery during the bitter fighting at Merdjayoun when this artillery officer became a byword amongst forward troops with whom he worked.
    At Merdjayoun on 19th June, 1941, our infantry attack was checked after suffering heavy casualties from an enemy counter-attack with tanks …

Lieutenant Cutler's work in registering his artillery on the only road by which enemy transport could enter the town was of vital importance and a big factor in the enemy's subsequent retreat. The citation continued:

• • On the night of 23rd-24th June he was in charge of a 25-pounder sent forward … to silence an enemy anti-tank gun and post, which had held up our attack. This he did and next morning the recapture of Merdjayoun was completed. Later at Damour on 6th July, when our forward infantry were pinned to the ground by heavy hostile machine-gun fire, Lieutenant Cutler, regardless of all danger, went to bring a line to his outpost when he was seriously wounded. Twenty-six hours elapsed before it was possible to rescue this officer, whose wounds by this time had become septic, necessitating the amputation of his leg. Throughout the Campaign the officer's courage was unparalleled"
     
    He was the Governor of New South Wales, High Commissioner to New Zealand, and had diplomatic postings in Ceylon, Egypt and the Suez, Pakistan, New York and the Netherlands.

• 
   
  

[Dej 17]

Cool. So we'll be earning those WW1 service stripes in the RFC now too? Sweet! Assuming we can survive at least a year in this bloody war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

 

Hmmm. How'd they know you'd need five stripes? Someone had this war planned out.