Need some tips on the Camel

[Firecage 1]

Ok im really getting where I love this plane but one area is just eating me alive....

 

When im in most every othe plane hammerheads and yo-yos seem to work well but the camel is just getting into a tumble that pretty much un recoverable. has any one got any tips on why the weight of the engine wont get the nose of the camel to pull around and drop over ? Or an different way of doing these type of manouvers?

 

Thanks for any help or advice

[Vasco 3]

Firecage,

 

The secret of flying the Camel is the use of RUDDER. Whereas in fighters with inline engines and little torque, when you bank right you apply an appropriate amount of right rudder and vice versa - in a Camel this will get you killed.

 

Because of the high torque effect of the rotary engine, when the Camel banks to the right she drops her nose and the turn tightens up very quickly. If held too long (and I mean about one second) she'll go into a spin and this is usually where the fight is lost. The secret to the lightning fast right turn of the Camel without spinning is TO KEEP HER NOSE UP by applying a little LEFT rudder in a right hand turn.

 

As the converse is true in the left hand turn (she'll lift her nose in the turn and attempt to climb and slow) you need enough left rudder to keep her nose on the horizon and not lose airspeed otherwise she'll eventually drop below stalling speed.

 

Remember: Left turn = lots of left rudder. Right turn = a little left rudder.

 

Vasco

Edited September 19, 2009 by Vasco

[Macklroy 2]

You MUST have Pedals, most manuvers can't be done with a twisty stick

 

 

Absolutely INCORRECT. (i use a ms2 with twist stick, very effective in flying ALL plane types)

 

 

 

The cammel IS a beast to master. And I wont say that i have even come close to mastering her.

 

The most important thing to remember when flying the cammel is that she ALWAYS wants to turn right. If you try to yo yo (high or low) it is in your best interest to turn to your right and us LOTS of rudder. The torque provided by the engines rotation almost pushes the plane around the turn and you can turn tighter than nearly any advasary. In a hammerhead be sure to be rolling and RUDDERING to the right out of the manuver. If you do stall her....well.....that's a fight most pilots just try to avoid all together. hehe

 

S! and GL

[Rugbyfan1972 1]

Now I'm curious, just what Exactly does an ms2 stand for. Surely it's not a Microsoft Sidewinder II. for it has most limited rudder travel of any stick I've ever seen

 

It might be a rude awakening, but put it on ( Float View ) As that will give a perfect view of your Rudder, and move it side to side, and you have the audacity to say it moves as good as with pedals

 

Don't get me wrong, the Microsoft Sidewinder II, is excellent for flying 707's and P40's.

 

But for WWI aircraft, it's one step, perhaps two, above Auto Rudder

 

Uncleal,

 

I have just flown a balloon defence mission where I have used the camel in the campaign, using auto rudder and I have shot down 2 AlbVa's and 2 Hannover's. Admittedly I did'nt realise I had invunerability switched off until I attacked the Hannovers, as the albs had not hit me once. I didn't find any problems using auto rudder and shot down 4 aircraft (2 albs and 2 hannovers), the third hannover would have been dead meat but for the fact that my guns and engine were damaged and I had to land at a nearby airfield.

 

I find the auto rudder is preferable to the twisty stick rudder which I have on my Saitek Evo Forcefeedback. Also if you use a system (auto rudder) constantly you will discover what you can do with it, and adapt your tactics accordingly.

 

Rugbyfan1972

[Macklroy 2]

Uncleal,

 

I do infact have microsofts sidewinder 2 'precision pro'. I'm not sure what problems you've had with it in the past. Possibly configuration problems from the user. On my end however the stick works wonderfully. 100% full range of motion in the rudder with very stable imput.

 

I have had 0 problems with it and it's effectiveness in manuvering the many different aircraft in OFF. So I DO have the audacity to say that my twist stick is NOT inferior in the range of motion and/or effectiveness to the 'pedals' as you say. To say it is just a step above auto rudder is infact almost a slap in the face. I'm not sure where you get your facts. But I'll be SURE not to get mine from you sir! That is all i have to say about that subject as it has now begun to overshadow the OPs main point.

 

S~

[Dej 17]

The OP was asking about hammerheads in the Camel. My experience is to do anything you can, however ungraceful and uncoordinated, to avoid the tail slipping back. I fly with a twisty stick (X52) and have found that if I pull her slightly over the vertical with full right rudder as I cut throttle then use the ailerons to nudge her straight she achieves the desired result... nearly. Probably looks absolutely bloody awful from the outside but WWI ain't about pretty flying.

[Firecage 1]

The OP was asking about hammerheads in the Camel. My experience is to do anything you can, however ungraceful and uncoordinated, to avoid the tail slipping back. I fly with a twisty stick (X52) and have found that if I pull her slightly over the vertical with full right rudder as I cut throttle then use the ailerons to nudge her straight she achieves the desired result... nearly. Probably looks absolutely bloody awful from the outside but WWI ain't about pretty flying.

 

I use a Logitech twist and see no problems for my level of flying abilities... alot of pilots love rudders and I can say what ever works for ya is the way to go....

 

Thanks for all the ideas ... I may see something here... maybe I need to cut the engine at a different time to ge the nose to drop over. I get at the top of the stall and rudder it over and it just wants to fall straight back and wont flip the nose around on a hammerhead. I will try cutting the eng a bit earlier and see if I can get the nose to pull over to the side a bit more. I may also need to start the nose over a bit earlier in the camel than I have been doing in the Albs. The nose is heavier in the Alb I think and thats helping me get her turned back towards the earth easier.

 

Also I always did the hammerhead as a move to the right over left and not a flip over the top which may be a new idea to try and see if I have more luck withit that way.... great ideas all....

 

I am asing because when I over shoot a plane it seems to work better to hammer head and come back more than a Barrel roll and gives me a few more seconds to SA the enemy plane and see what evasive move he might be pulling and act accordingly. I have done some work and found out a bit more on how to get the Wing over's and yo yos to work better.... its the damn hammerhead thats tweaking me still at times.

 

I think some time in Free flight doing some test runs may be in order... altho I find training under the gun of a campaign to be more of a learning experience. .... but then I was always a hard head at learning new tricks

 

Thanks for the info

Edited September 19, 2009 by Firecage

[RAF_Louvert 101]

Firecage, the Camel is one of the few planes in OFF that you can consistently do a modern-day Immelamnn turn with, (in lieu of the historic Immelmann which is more of a hammerhead or wingover). Put her into a shallow dive and get your air speed up to 120, pull GENTLY back on the stick, and just before you go fully inverted do an aileron roll to port as you push slightly forward on the stick. You will need to keep just the smallest bit of starboard rudder throughout the maneuver. Also, if you have not already sorted it out, the Camel truly despises a ham-fisted pilot. Fly her as if you were waltzing with a beautiful lady who is allowing you the privilage of leading her around the ballroom and you will do fine. Try to manhandle her and she will slap you down so fast you won't know which end is up...literally.

 

Cheers!

 

Lou

[Bullethead 12]

When im in most every othe plane hammerheads and yo-yos seem to work well but the camel is just getting into a tumble that pretty much un recoverable. has any one got any tips on why the weight of the engine wont get the nose of the camel to pull around and drop over ? Or an different way of doing these type of manouvers?

 

Call me weird, but I never do hammerheads in combat no matter what plane I'm flying. I just have an instinctive aversion to getting that slow and hanging in place that long--I feel like it makes me too much of a target for any passing dweeb. The AI tends to try this a lot, and I get a lot of my kills plastering AI planes that are standing still at the top of hammerheads.

 

What I do instead are all varieties of high yoyos, from half Cuban 8s to lag rolls to high-speed wingovers to just steeply oblique upward turns. I try very had to get nowhere close to stall speed pulling over the top. By trying hard to stay within my envelope, I almost completely avoid all the low-speed nastiness that various planes have to offer.

 

If you're thinking of hammerheads, what you really want to do is reverse directions more or less in place with minimum net speed loss. Instead of doing the airshow hammerhead zooming to zero speed, try this. Pull the nose up sharply to between 45-70^ and the instant you achieve that angle, stomp the rudder in the direction you want to go. You still have most of your speed so the rudder has a lot of authority and your momentum carries you around veyr quickly. I call this a high-speed wingover. You have to know your plane, however, because they require different amounts of rudder, and too much will often throw you into a funky spin.

 

I find that most rotary birds do this quite well, but if you come from a background of high-speed E-fighters, you have to adjust your timing on this. In a true E-fighter, you want to start your high yoyo the instant your target makes his break, to avoid overshooting. But when doing this high-speed wingover, overshooting a little is actually a good thing, because when you come out of this you'll be right behind the enemy in shooting position.

[Check Six 2]

 

Also I always did the hammerhead as a move to the right over left and not a flip over the top which may be a new idea to try and see if I have more luck withit that way.... great ideas all....

 

I am asing because when I over shoot a plane it seems to work better to hammer head and come back more than a Barrel roll and gives me a few more seconds to SA the enemy plane and see what evasive move he might be pulling and act accordingly. I have done some work and found out a bit more on how to get the Wing over's and yo yos to work better.... its the damn hammerhead thats tweaking me still at times.

 

 

Have you seen Homeboy's training vid on hammerheads and wingovers?

 

 

Quite well done. Adapt it to the camel's peculiarities.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Check Six